Ragdoll

[sluggCDN 0]

I have to state it right off teh bet - "ragdoll" is a rather loose term describing an animation system; it comes in different games in various states of perfection. It all depends on the devs, how they can make it look real and not overly exaggerated and dramatic.

I completely agree with ppl that say well-tweaked ragdoll type of animations will be a great addition to ArmA - however bodies don't have to fly thru the air after hit with one bullet.

The thing is the pre-recorded animation system is very inefficient even if considered from the production point of view. If ragdoll is implemented BIS doesn't have to spend weeks on working with all these death animations sequences trying to integrate/blend them into/with the rest of the animation system.

Another point about the pre-recorded animation. It's a very strong indicator that there is very little done in ArmA in terms of the realistic physical interaction of the character model with the environment and the character's animation with environment. It's simply impossible to have a limitted set of pre-captured animations that will cover the entire range of character movement in ArmA. Therefore it makes sense to let physics take care of some of the gameplay aspects. There is a limit to what character animations can do and simulate in a game. An animation is a poor substitute for physics.

Here is an example - the sprinting animation requires that before the caharacter comes to a full stop there are about 3-5 final extra steps. Your character will not stop no matter what before this 3-5 steps animation sequence is complete. The only solution here is you aim your character into a wall and sprint. The character is stopped by the wall. From aside it looks like your character is trying to push the wall with his forehead. The best solution of this issue is shown in GR:AW where your character simply slides after a sudden stop during sprinting. But the rest of GRAW sucks

BTW its BS when ppl say that a person cannot stop on a spot after full-on sprint; I do it constantly and freeze exactly where I need - I don't need a wall to stop me .

The lack of the fully integrated physicall engine in ArmA is also the reason why you cannot make an AI/bot budge if you are stuck with him in a narrow hallway or doorway. I died many times like this when my bot simply wouldn't let me thru a door when I was running inside to take cover. America's Army has a well done yet very minimalistic ragdoll-based animation system. There is no drama - bodies just drop or slump. It's a hybrid of pre-recorded and ragdoll type of animation.

To sum it all up there are many pros in favor of ragdoll. It looks more organic and unpredictible, simply better, it will solve a lot of character animation problems, and save the devs quite a bit of time that they spend on trying to come up with all sorts of death animations.

But having said all that I understand that devs probably invested quite a bit into the motion capture equipment. Plus since there is about 70% of gameplay materials imported straight from the OFP, introducing ragdoll and new physics system will require a serious game overhaul. Saddly enough devs don't see the importance of improving the physical world in ArmA when it clearly has direct effect on the gameplay.

[Sergei_Q 0]

(ragdoll sells copies of games)

No it doesn't. It's like saying that the way the spent shells are ejected from the gun sells copies of games.

Good graphical effects sure do help at that, but it doesn't depend on any single one effect but the overall picture.

Personally I'd rather see vehicles that break into pieces (like a T-72 turret flying into air after a catastrophic brew up, or car wheels rolling on after explosion) than dolls. Those you'd actually be able to see at the usual engagement range. However, even better would be to have real simulation aspects improved. Now THAT would sell the game a lot more.

[stakex 0]

Rogue Spear had an impressive amount of different death animations, you nearly never saw 2 time the same during a mission when you were taking down tangos.

All of them were just so well done that they were all believable and felt real.

So there is no need of ragdoll, just a lot more variations in the animations.

Seconded, as everything in that post. I say no to ragdoll everytime I see a topic with ragdoll in it. Ragdoll vs death anims is like the fully dynamic destruction system vs the system from ArmA2 case, the only difference being the bigger need of the dynamic destruction than ragdoll...

DD vs ArmA2 destrcution really isn't a good compariosn. First off DD is something thats never really been done before, and not something thats pretty much a standard of modern day action games, which ragdoll is. Second, its just plain and simply easier to add ragdoll then it is to add DD. Finally, DD and the ArmA2 system accomplish the same thing, and in the end will look pretty much the same... where as ragdoll could take care of the issues the animation system has.

So there is room to argue that ragdoll is usefull in ArmA2 compared to the current system of ArmA... while its hard to say DD is more important compared to the ArmA2 system. (Im a huge fan of DD btw).

[stakex 0]

(ragdoll sells copies of games)

No it doesn't. It's like saying that the way the spent shells are ejected from the gun sells copies of games.

Good graphical effects sure do help at that, but it doesn't depend on any single one effect but the overall picture.

Personally I'd rather see vehicles that break into pieces (like a T-72 turret flying into air after a catastrophic brew up, or car wheels rolling on after explosion) than dolls. Those you'd actually be able to see at the usual engagement range. However, even better would be to have real simulation aspects improved. Now THAT would sell the game a lot more.

Ok perhaps I shouldn't have said "ragdoll" and more or less good graphical effects and physics... sell games. Which is where ragdoll falls.

And I agree 100% Id rather have destroyable vehicles...

[max power 21]

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Woah! That's not my pm inbox!

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

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Woah!  That's not my pm inbox!

If you make accusations in public you get a public response. Simple.

[max power 21]

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Woah! That's not my pm inbox!

If you make accusations in public you get a public response. Simple.

Then we go on and on until we both get banned? You started this whole offtopic hoo-haw. To be honest I didn't even read your message. If this message was for me, and not for yourself or for showboating, then I entreat you to contact me privately. I won't be reading any public replies to this message either.

[Perun 0]

The worse on the ragdoll animations is that there are missing cramps (or agonys). If man isn't hit to cerebellum, it will wriggle in that cramps for a few seconds (maybe for minutes, if that man isn't really dead). The same if you half an earthworm to two pieces (try to put salt on it then).

[SaBrE_UK 0]

Quote[/b] ]To be honest I didn't even read your message. If this message was for me, and not for yourself or for showboating, then I entreat you to contact me privately.

Then why did you accuse him publicly?. I've got to say a lot of your contradictions puzzle me.

On topic: To say ragdoll is not possible is not true- there's always scaling and optimisation that can make things like it possible, even if they're not yet. Obviously a large overhaul of the engine would be needed and that may not be viable or important.

Personally I don't think it's needed. A few dozen death animations (depending on direction of impact) would be easier (I should think) and perhaps to good effect. CoD4 had a good system but that would require a large modification of the engine.

[sluggCDN 0]

Dynamic vehicle destruction and ragdoll kinda fall in the same category of an advanced physics model system. I agree with vehicle destruction as well - for example a tank turret can be blown off if the ammunition depot inside the tank detonates. I don't think that integrating a hybrid ragdoll/precaptured animation into ArmA can be very difficult. But developing the all-encompasing more advanced physical features in the game can be time demanding. There are already elementary physics present in the game which can be used to further enhance character's movement options. It can be a worthwhile time investment in the long run for BIS. If they plan to stay on the market they will have to start doing new things and not recycle game components that are 8-10 years old.

Look at ragdoll this way. Animations are purely visual simulation of what ragdoll would manifest itself like in the game. The devs are trying to simulate falling of an unsupported physical object caused by gravity with an animation. Replacing of physics with animation was previously justified by the lack of system resource in the currently available gaming systems. This is not true anymore. Physics are nowdays are essential for gameplay - it's what makes interaction with the virtual world interesting. However devs spend so much time working on a believable world yet provide very limited options of interacting with it on the character level. They are forgetting that ArmA is all about combat and not about perfectly modeled trees, shrubs & wildlife.

Arma is still a first person shooter - therefore the success of the title directly depends on how well this first person interaction experience is recreated in the game.

[stegman 3]

OK sure ragdoll works on some games, like rogue spear or CoD4, but the maps are tiny, compared to the maps found in ArmA and i would imagine ArmA2's maps are going to be twice the size.  I know hardware is improving, but my pc struggles with ArmA 1!  

I will need to upgrade to play ArmA2, i accept that, but for the game engine to calculate hundreds of units and animations playing for each unit, wavy grass, realistic looking trees, smoke trails, millions of bullets to keep track of....I'd rather not have to upgrade to some NASA spec pc, just simply to see a man go all wobbly when i shoot him dead.

What i would rather, is some kind of injured animation.  I've never been shot in real life (touch wood), and i know this is a game and not real life, but i'd imagine that if i was shot in the arm i'd be holding it and shouting "OW!" rather than just having a shaky aim.

Or if i was shot in the leg, i think i'd do more than just lie down.

But to be honest, i'll probably buy it waht ever they put in it and upgrade after!  lol

[mrj-fin 0]

Isnt there working ropes physics on VBS2? So its should be possible to use same to the joints? I would at least liek to see death bodies have ragdoll I mean that i can drag death bodies like in Hitman games . Small details really make whole game shine.

[Coffin Joe 0]

I wonder if the ArmA engine could incorporate something like Euphoria(essentially an animation system with its own brain[a.i.]). With that you could have people stumbling or falling over from close explosions, intelligent ragdolls and probably quite a bit of other stuff(climbing over fences).

GTA4 is using it. Yes I know, not the same type of game but its a pretty complex game and for it to be able to use the tech is very encouraging.

Someone using the trial/learners version of Euphoria to speculate on what could be seen in GTA4...

I hope we see more of it used in games. The system is amazing IMO.

[EDcase 87]

I know it won't happen but here's my vote anyway... (ARMA III )

I would like to see ragdoll type deaths.  I'm sick of seeing the same death anims and poses.  

To get around the CPU hit perhaps it could be only used for instant kill situations (headshots)

Also the ragdoll engine would only handle deaths close to the player so kills in the distance could be done with standard anim.

People caught in explosions should dissappear (with optional gore or forced off for sensitive countries) Weapons would be useless so they can vanish too.  Seeing flying bodies really ruins the realism.  People outside a certain range would be blown back but not go flying 100m+.

One way to handle the MP side would be for the soldier to drop their gear at the time of hit.  (I know its not that realistic but I'd rather have that than fying bodies and I'm sure that most soldiers killed in action do not hold onto their weapon after death.)

[Dynamax 0]

BTW its BS when ppl say that a person cannot stop on a spot after full-on sprint; I do it constantly and freeze exactly where I need - I don't need a wall to stop me .

I would pay to see that.

Im sorry, but i don't care who you are, but there is no way anyone human or otherwise is going to come to a dead stop after a full out sprint.

I play mil-sim airsoft and I know how we all come to a stop after a good sprint. it's either running into a structure and bracing your self with you'r arms, taking fast steps to slow down, or sliding and risking taking a nasty tumble.

the day I see someone come to a dead stop from a full out sprint is the day I stop playing airsoft.

The problem with video games is that it's nothing like controling a body. When we run and want to stop at a given spot, our brains calculate where we need to start slowing ourselfs down to come to rest where we want. You can't do this in a video game. but you can cheat it like many current games do. This is why video game character's look so fake.

I agree that ArmA's current setup is a little wonky at times, but it's my opinion that its movement system(given not perfect) is far closer to real life then most other games. If you can't stop where you want and over shoot a building corner, it's your own fault for not practicing stopping.

[MehMan 0]

Not practicing stopping? Do you have any idea how ridicilous that sounds? The anim is broken, simple as that. There has to be a limit between realism and gameplay. Screwing with the player controls is not always a good thing.

[sluggCDN 0]

Quote[/b] ]

BTW its BS when ppl say that a person cannot stop on a spot after full-on sprint; I do it constantly and freeze exactly where I need - I don't need a wall to stop me .

I would pay to see that.

Im sorry, but i don't care who you are, but there is no way anyone human or otherwise is going to come to a dead stop after a full out sprint.

Well, my fellow airsofter, exercise, exercise & exercise! I do it constantly in airsoft when I dash out from cover to cover. It's all about how you controll your body. I never over-run a tree stump by 5 steps as it happens in ArmA. I admit if I run too fast I use a tree truck and slam into it with my shoulder if I feel like I'm falling. But if I aim to stop at a certain spot I will, and will never run past it.

This is exactly why I support more advanced physics system where if you sprint real hard and decide to stop you will have to deal with your own momentum as opposed to 5-step animation sequence.

[Guest]

maybe :

1_ you sprint less than 2 sec, you can hold

2_ you sprint more than 2 sec, cant "dead stop"

[-duke- 0]

While I do agree that we could use much more in the way of death animations, I'm not sure ragdoll is the answer. It may be me but sometimes ragdoll just seems a bit overdone as if the body has no dead weight; could be my perception though.

I'd be more interested in gibbing personally, but that's just me.

[dmarkwick 261]

While I do agree that we could use much more in the way of death animations, I'm not sure ragdoll is the answer. It may be me but sometimes ragdoll just seems a bit overdone as if the body has no dead weight; could be my perception though.

I'd be more interested in gibbing personally, but that's just me.

I think generally, in other games, ragdoll isn't implemented realistically. I think maybe even exaggerating the weight would be a good thing, just get them to slump real quick as per RL. I doubt a sufficiently optimised ragdoll system is not much more CPU intensive than a table on animations, and it would give the battle area a unique look every time with no two bodies ever adopting the same pose.

IMO gibbing would unnecessarily raise the profile of ArmA2 to the tabloid crowd.

[sluggCDN 0]

Doing "ragdoll" type animation for the sake of adding variety into the death poses would be a wrong reason. The visual effect can be a secondary priority but as important. For the devs it's simply better to let the physics take care of the animations as opposed to trying to create numerous death animations, integrating and blending them with other movement animations. The problem is that the way death animation looks depends on how the animation artist did it. We can see now in ArmA that the artists didn't do a good job in all the cases or it was a wrong choice of animations. So now if they acknowledge it they have to come with something new - what are the chances it will be better.

Besides I have a hunch that after working for months on the animations, the animation guys just get loop and stop seeing all the kirks. They just want to be done with it. It's a never ending vicious circle. Wouldn't it be simple to just develope the ragdol once and for all? They'll just save themselves time & the physics will take care of the rest.

[-duke- 0]

While I do agree that we could use much more in the way of death animations, I'm not sure ragdoll is the answer. It may be me but sometimes ragdoll just seems a bit overdone as if the body has no dead weight; could be my perception though.

I'd be more interested in gibbing personally, but that's just me.

I think generally, in other games, ragdoll isn't implemented realistically. I think maybe even exaggerating the weight would be a good thing, just get them to slump real quick as per RL. I doubt a sufficiently optimised ragdoll system is not much more CPU intensive than a table on animations, and it would give the battle area a unique look every time with no two bodies ever adopting the same pose.

IMO gibbing would unnecessarily raise the profile of ArmA2 to the tabloid crowd.

I think I should clarify, I don't want to see everything gibbed, just some gibbing when stepping on a mine for instance or being hit by an artillery shell. I do agree that turning the game into a gibfest would be stupid but I see no harm in the odd gib if taking direct heavy fire.

Sorry for the slant on the original topic, I just didn't want everyone to think I was looking toward Soldier of Fortune.

As for ragdoll, if the body can appear to have weight instead of becoming a flying stuffed animal then I think it would be an improvement if it could be implemented.

[4 IN 1 0]

even today i still kind of like the old ofp dead anime, looks more solid then ragdoll

[SHWiiNG 0]

I think Ragdoll would be a very welcome approach. as the BIS team do not have to spend hours and hours making new Animations for different scenarios.

And i think that from a players perspective, the use of Ragdolls would mean a more fluent feel. Currently in Arma, animations feel really strange as if i hit a guy with a high powered rifle in the right shoulder, he will fall towards me in a manor that suggests he was hit in the stomach. This results in a very unnatural feeling to the power of ones weaponry and the damage that it inflicts.

[sic-disaster 311]

I think ragdolls drain to much of system power, though i ofcourse love ragdolls as much as the next person. I can understand why they are not in ArmA though, and i wouldnt be surprised if they werent in ArmA 2 either.

It wouldnt bother me much as i know priorities in ArmA are different then most other shooters, and that's fine.

Some more variation to death animations would not hurt at all though.

I take the old Rainbow Six: Rogue Spear as an example. I NEVER get tired of watching people die in that game.

There are so much different animations for dying and a lot of realistic-looking and cool ones too, it doesnt matter the game doesnt have ragdolls.

A few examples:

- A shot to the back of the head, the soldier falls slowly to his knees and then falls on his chin.

- A shot to the guts. The soldier grabs his stomach, holds open his hands, sees the blood, slowly falls forward on his knees and on his side, crawled up.

- A shot to the side. The soldier grabs his side, and limps to the opposite side before slowly slumping over and landing on his side.

- Another shot to the gut. The soldier falls backwards on his ass looking at his stomach, looking up (most of the time at the player :P ) then back at the wound and then falls backwards.

- A headshot to the face. The soldier's head kicks back over, and falls backwards and lands on his shoulders first, then his legs relax and slide down.

I could go on forever

Now, all of these take pretty long, and that might not be very feasable in ArmA due to huge distances, you cant make sure you have a hit and you still see the guy standing (WTF, BUG?! reactions), but still a lot of diversion in this would be great.