So can anyone tell me why everyone is playing coop

[Rambo-16AAB 0]

we had 1.09 on our pub server, but hardly anyone installed 1.09, so we reverted back to 1.08

[leckig 0]

well, that suprises me. myself and 3 of my clan mates we often times look for PvP based on 1.09 and we just dont see any, so, frustrated, we have to join in the 1.08 servers.

[mattxr 9]

Coops are fun thats why.. especially when clans get together and have JOIN CO-OPS.. which are great..

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c103/mro204/ts.jpg

and this clan

Its about community getting together and having fun.. in the way they like best... Playing a Coop. Yes people play CTF, Dm and all that but the game was made with COOP in mind and thats why most people bought it.

[leckig 0]

the game was made with COOP in mind and thats why most people bought it.

you should add IMHO to the last statement...

[Frantic 0]

OFP was great for PvP, because of its fast movements.

ArmA is great for COOP, because you can control your soldier like a robot.

ArmA controls are the worse i ever seen in a game.

My clan left ArmA, because of the missing PvP part of the game. Slow controls and terrible animations made it impossible for us to have fun with this game at PvP.

We have moved to CoD4 which has great controls and nearly perfect animations. Thats the way PvP should be made. You need to have control over your soldier to have fun with PvP, but sadly BIS failed at this.

I´m just hoping that they will correct the mistakes which they have done at ArmA with ArmAII.

greetings

Frantic

[daikan 1]

i can only speak for myself but where ArmA really shines IMHO is the combination of PvP with player controlled AI along with complete freedom of movement. Gameplay like in RTS or CTI type missions cannot be found in any other game and for me it's the most fun i can get out of this game as it offers the best mix in realism, teamplay and strategic depth while not requiring huge player numbers and dedication as for offline coordination, memberships etc..

the hole point is i need a human brain as direct or indirect opponent otherwise i'm either getting bored or frustrated much too fast. in that sense i totally agree with the opening post as i can't understand the coop hype at all...

my only hope is that with better cheat protection we will start to see a rise in advanced PvP game modes.

now if only BIS would fix the pathetic AI pathfinding flaws - i would be in gamers heaven (well, pretty close at least )

[W0lle 1048]

Coop missions dominated since the first days of OFP, I personally never played anything else. If you take a look around you'll notice that coop missions are the majority.

Nothing against good PvP missions though, of course having a human counterpart makes things much more difficult.

[walker 0]

Hi all

As W0lle said Coop and PvP coop dominated OFP same as it dominates ArmA.

Oh there was always a Hexenkessle running in OFP but most people graduated beyond it eventualy. Hexenkessle was ported to ArmA. Do we all still go back to play it for a mad half hour? Sure, heck I even have a game of Space invaders on this computer and I still give that the odd half hour once in while.

Frantic I am sorry that your style is not cattered for in ArmA but if you want ArmA to play in the way you like, MOD it. I do not know if there is a market in ArmA for your prefered style of play but if there is then there must be some at least who are capable of modding ArmA. ArmA like OFP is one of the easiest games to MOD.

As to COD4 I am sorry but it is just absolute rubbish. You cannot put more than 4 a side on it before your spawning on top of each other and it quicly degenerates in to a grenade spamming contest, xray vission tags tell you where people are. They have air strikes in shoe box! Any one want to buy my COD4? There are only about 10 shoeboxes to play in and about 5 mission styles. No vehicles. No Aircraft. And a 200m View distance. It is also filling up with Kentucky Chicken types and the like so much so that most servers run it unrealistlicly so that if you shoot your own side it has no effect, that is just sad.

As I said if your serious about doing your style of CTF in ArmA and you think there is an audience for that style, mod it it is not that hard.

Kind Regards walker

[beta 0]

I think everyone is playing COOP simply because there is very little other choice.

There are PvP missions out there, various CTFs, Bezerk, some C&Hs. But most of these cater VERY little to any more complex form of teamwork. Such a thing is quite common in even the most basic for of COOP.

An example. If everyone can:

1) Carry a sniper rifle/Assault rifle with optics and a GL

2)An AT weapon

3)Drive a tank/jet/chopper

What is the point of relying on someone else?

You can kill infantry with your rifle, you can kill tanks with your AT weapon, and that is only if you manage to lose your vehicle!

Without some sort of restrictions on what players can and cannot use, any ArmA PvP is basically team deathmatch with vehicles.

Yes, there are some large clans/leagues out there that may have something different than what I just described, but the problem is you cannot simply "play right away". I have read the sites for all the major clans/leagues and there is not very much that would indicate it's anything but a giant vehicle, sniper/rocket man deathmatch.

Basically, make an organized, focused, and realistic PvP mission, and you will see a LOT more PvP servers.

[Heatseeker 0]

I think the above applies to both coop and adversarial .

But imagine a adversarial mission with 2 or more squads using standard infantry loadouts and objectives placed at random positions across a vast, open AO. Imagine you will spend more time searching for the objectives/opfor than shooting virtual bullets and there is no respawn.

It will never work for public joe since:

Joe doesnt understand that he's part of an infantry squad.

Joe doesnt understand why he cant carry a sniper rifle, an at4 launcher, fly a cobra gunship or crew an abrams mbt.

Joe gets bored after running around on his own for 5 minuts without finding anything hostile to shoot at (possible result, joe atacks his teamates).

Joe doesnt use a mic because:

a) In his opinion l33t speech makes him look cool on the chat.

b) He's afraid others will laugh of his girly voice.

Now im not saying that you cant find good people in pubs but generally speaking... Joe sucks.

On the other hand its hard to cooperate with players you never played with before .

[celery 8]

As W0lle said Coop and PvP coop dominated OFP same as it dominates ArmA.

PvP was always equal if not dominant compared to coop in Flashpoint. Of the ~20 servers that are active in OFP, over 50% are still PvP.

As to COD4 I am sorry but it is just absolute rubbish. You cannot put more than 4 a side on it before your spawning on top of each other and it quicly degenerates in to a grenade spamming contest, xray vission tags tell you where people are. They have air strikes in shoe box! Any one want to buy my COD4? There are only about 10 shoeboxes to play in and about 5 mission styles. No vehicles. No Aircraft. And a 200m View distance. It is also filling up with Kentucky Chicken types and the like so much so that most servers run it unrealistlicly so that if you shoot your own side it has no effect, that is just sad.

You can leave your game reviews to the appropriate offtopic thread. The point is that CoD4's controls are much more fluid and a realism game should aim for ease of action instead of making things harder and clumsier than real life just so they can say it's "realistic". Before you start a 2 page essay about bunnyhopping and floating cameras, know that ease of action can mean other things than arcade movement and 10 meter jumping. It can mean just being in control of the character instead of giving it queued and optional movement orders. Call of Duty 4 simply has better controls, in fact <insert any game title here> has more responsive player actions than ArmA.

As I said if your serious about doing your style of CTF in ArmA and you think there is an audience for that style, mod it it is not that hard.

Why don't the developers fix an important core function? Having fluid and responsive animations/actions benefits everyone, unless you wanted a simulator about soldiers with premature rigor mortis.

[(FPC) Bacon 0]

Well for what it's worth a COOP is only as good as what the maps been made and that goes for a CTF maps as well but there is nothing better knowing that your getting the better against another person on a PvP map rather than an Ai.

C&H maps are more evenly balanced to play as the objective are the same for each team and thats when tactics come into.

If the Ai are shit in a coop it makes it unbalnced for the people playing it as you may remember the campaign in Arma was not the best it could have been and the Ai were pretty shit to be honest.

But to have a game against PvP is a lot more harder than ppl think it is.

This is just my take on the matter no offence to any COOP players or PvP players.

[.kju 3241]

Celery is very right here.

BI unfortunately just fucked the controls way too much.

In addition at the start the bad FPS performance of ArmA, many

and major bugs, lagging crosshair and all the cheating made the

PvP scene ran away.

Not even talking about essential PvP features, like observer mode,

replay functionality, player stats, any support for leagues..

I really wonder, if BI can set this huge customer potential aside..

Very bad choice IMHO. My impression is that BI has little clue

about PvP scene from OFP or any other good PvP game.

Unfortunately the PvP scene didn't spam the BI forum with junk

like the coop and realism scene did in OFP.

Now in ArmA the PvP scene complains as 'their game(play)' was

destroyed.

Very sad indeed.

PS: In OFP easily over 50% of the servers came from PvP clans.

PSS: The 'funny' thing is that people from the PvP scene try to

explain the reality to people not into the PvP scene and are told

that they talk rubbish. Funny..

[whisper 0]

The funny thing is that I've the exact same issues in CoD4 (less extreme, but same "lack of response" syndrom) for controlling my character as I have in ArmA (and that's one of the reasons why I find ET:QW way better than overhyped CoD4)

Which ofc doesn't mean ArmA controls are good. Far from it

[The Susser 0]

The big attraction of this game is the unlimited game modes on offer. CTI being the hybrid of coop and capture and hold (bezerk) really demonstates what this engine can do. Why choke it with crappy little ctf maps? You have a huge island and to narrow the parameters of the map to a small section is really not ArmA.

The ArmA/OFP community is more mature than most gaming communities and attracts as Walker said "The more Cerebral Player" This is reflected by the maps on offer. Clearly the fashion victims have crossed over to the latest "In Thing" and IMHO the servers are alot more friendlier. The maps are being played to their full potential, a lot more these days.

I hate to sound nasty but don't let the door hit you n the way ouit. the community is far better without the Ritalin addicts.

[celery 8]

The big attraction of this game is the unlimited game modes on offer. CTI being the hybrid of coop and capture and hold (bezerk) really demonstates what this engine can do. Why choke it with crappy little ctf maps? You have a huge island and to narrow the parameters of the map to a small section is really not ArmA.

CTF is a part of those unlimited game modes and it's not like the server list is plagued by hundreds of those dirty, nasty CTF games anyway. Unlike a certain other game mode.

The ArmA/OFP community is more mature than most gaming communities and attracts as Walker said "The more Cerebral Player" This is reflected by the maps on offer. Clearly the fashion victims have crossed over to the latest "In Thing" and IMHO the servers are alot more friendlier. The maps are being played to their full potential, a lot more these days.

Mature players like to grind mindless AI opponents for higher ranks? Because Evolution is basically all this game has to offer online, the rest are under a very big rock. Indeed ArmA to its full potential.

I hate to sound nasty but don't let the door hit you n the way ouit. the community is far better without the Ritalin addicts.

What have PvP players done to you to deserve such a low opinion? Did they give you a firsthand lesson in combat tactics and aiming speed?

[lwlooz 0]

What have PvP players done to you to deserve such a low opinion? Did they give you a firsthand lesson in combat tactics and aiming speed?

You just answered the question yourself.

PvP gamers always think gaming is about competing , showing how amazing one is and "p3wning" everyone else. This character-type of course includes ruining other peoples games and disrespecting everyone thats "below them".

Coop isn't about shooting AI , it's about cooperating with other players to achieve a goal together.

That said , any mission-type can have cooperative elements in it to a varying degree. But the simpleton PvP types(CTF,DM) don't have that much , because they are outdated and not that complex.

Hence I don't see the surprise why not many people are attracted to them.

Addition: It always completely baffles me that people buy a game with huge islands, AI unlike in any other game and expect the whole community to play shoebox-DM like in any other game by the way

[sickboy 13]

I play Coop, and only coop. The reasons for this:

[*] You don't need as much players as in PvP to get a nice (reasonable scale) game going

[*] Easier Managable; Getting a few and nice players together within the same timespan is easier with lower amount of players

[*] Controlability. When you're all fighting on the same side you have better managability, because you have a better overview. An AI doesn't go AFK, an AI doesn't cheat on purpose like a Human can do, etc. etc.

[*] All my experiences with PvP have been bad. Ppl playing PvP seemed only interested in bunny hopping, 10000:1 kill scores, and basicly; just cared about their own sorry self; Nothing more. As such I always had a better feeling with Cooperative play as opposed to Competitive play.

Btw, I believe that Coop just gets the same 'hit' as PvP when it comes to cheaters etc. I never have issues with them because im a Private Server owner and player, but I wouldnt know a reason why PvP servers would have bigger problems with Cheaters than Coop servers.

In my coop missions I try to work out dynamics, randomness, smart AI, and lower the ratio of Friend/Foe to a more realistic level.

Coop for me is "The Singleplayer Experience, in a multiplayer cooperative environment" ..  "Your AI Teammates replaced by real mates"

I believe ArmA's full potential can be achieved when you put 100 or more (proper) players in PvP mode. Or make combinations with PvPCoop with controlled AI etc. But I guess im one of those "If it runs well; don't change"; Coop's working just fine for me.

Though I should get myself some quality PvP taste some day.....

I must add that as a Coop player I have never seen the problems most of the PvP players seem to have with ArmA; responsiveness and motion.

For me it's just perfect, but then again im shooting at AI, and not at players I still don't grasp what the problem is with the controls/response etc, even after it being explained a couple of times by PvPers

I must add that this 'war' between Coop and PvP is imo as childish as it gets Why don't we just all respect eachother I guess the problem is that the PvPguys feel themselves left out due to ArmA's higher suitability for Coop than PvP.

Still, I believe that any fan truelly interested in ArmA, and in PvP, can make something out of ArmA. Mission Wise, Animations Wise, features Wise. You just need willing people, just like with any other kind of ArmA project, may it be Mods, Addons, maybe it be Coop Missions/Features, etc. etc.

[The Susser 0]

The big attraction of this game is the unlimited game modes on offer. CTI being the hybrid of coop and capture and hold (bezerk) really demonstates what this engine can do. Why choke it with crappy little ctf maps? You have a huge island and to narrow the parameters of the map to a small section is really not ArmA.

CTF is a part of those unlimited game modes and it's not like the server list is plagued by hundreds of those dirty, nasty CTF games anyway. Unlike a certain other game mode.

The ArmA/OFP community is more mature than most gaming communities and attracts as Walker said "The more Cerebral Player" This is reflected by the maps on offer. Clearly the fashion victims have crossed over to the latest "In Thing" and IMHO the servers are alot more friendlier. The maps are being played to their full potential, a lot more these days.

Mature players like to grind mindless AI opponents for higher ranks? Because Evolution is basically all this game has to offer online, the rest are under a very big rock. Indeed ArmA to its full potential.

I hate to sound nasty but don't let the door hit you n the way ouit. the community is far better without the Ritalin addicts.

What have PvP players done to you to deserve such a low opinion? Did they give you a firsthand lesson in combat tactics and aiming speed?

You are assuming I play EVO. I do not, ok. Evolution seems to be the only mode available if you browse public servers. Like choosing a wife in a nightclub. You gonna get slappers. There are many servers, albeit closed ones, that offer multiple game modes. get involved go to a forum post your interest and you'll soon be pwning your noobs in PvP. Or is that the problem? Public servers are awash with noobs that are easy kills and the closed servers have the more experienced players.

As for quick aiming I can hold my own as far as ArmA allows for fast paced aiming. I have Unreal 3 and Planetside for that twitch fix.

I notice you have Hexenkessle in your sig. I was playing that over 5 years ago in OFP. Move on

[Pulverizer 1]

Mature players like to grind mindless AI opponents for higher ranks? Because Evolution is basically all this game has to offer online, the rest are under a very big rock. Indeed ArmA to its full potential.

Oh please, Celery... That's like saying all Counter-Strike has to offer online is mindless TDM with random noobs because that's what most of the public servers play.

No, wait... damn it... that's exactly what you want from ArmA

[whisper 0]

What have PvP players done to you to deserve such a low opinion? Did they give you a firsthand lesson in combat tactics and aiming speed?

You just answered the question yourself.

PvP gamers always think gaming is about competing , showing how amazing one is and "p3wning" everyone else. This character-type of course includes ruining other peoples games and disrespecting everyone thats "below them".

Coop isn't about shooting AI , it's about cooperating with other players to achieve a goal together.

That said , any mission-type can have cooperative elements in it to a varying degree. But the simpleton PvP types(CTF,DM) don't have that much , because they are outdated and not that complex.

Hence I don't see the surprise why not many people are attracted to them.

Addition: It always completely baffles me that people buy a game with huge islands, AI unlike in any other game and expect the whole community to play shoebox-DM like in any other game by the way

Talk about generalization.

PvP people, on teamplay games, are far more team centered than you seem to consider them.

Celery wrote about giving coopers tactical/aiming lessons? Why?

Because of this :

Quote[/b] ]the community is far better without the Ritalin addicts.

And you come to the conclusion it's the PvP player that are disrespectfull?

Don't look surprised that he answers this way when he is in the first hand the one who is disrespected and considered "below ArmA coop players". The quoted sentence just called for Celery's answer.

I play PvP games mostly, and believe me, the last thing I want to show is how I pwn others. Simply because I don't.

Simply, I've far much more fun against a live human opponent who will adapt and change his tactics than against a pre-placed AI, however well scripted/coded it is.

I understand the coop fun, I've played it for years in OFP and it was delightfull.

Understand the PvP part is also fun and also has a place in ArmA.

Now, about he size limit of usual CTF ArmA map, I think it's a fair point.

If the same kind of gameplay is adapted to large scale ArmA, and if the FPS aspect are smoothed (mainly glitchy anims), then ArmA can be perfect for a good PvP experience.

I know of people who play for months now a PvP (mixed with AI) realistic campaign with awesome results. THIS is, imho, where ArmA truely shines, not really Evo in the form it has evolved (hahaha )today, where public people grind for ranks.

I'm also sure there are far more PvP possibilities that have been left unexplored. Mainly, because the basic FPS aspect of ArmA have rebutted far too many people.

Saying "they are just PvP morons, let them leave", is just a shame and completely idiotic reaction. Or simply lack of knowledge of the PvP scene.

Once more, what rebutted them is NOT the new possible scale in ArmA, it's completely different aspects (FPS playability, mainly). How blamable is that?

[celery 8]

What have PvP players done to you to deserve such a low opinion? Did they give you a firsthand lesson in combat tactics and aiming speed?

You just answered the question yourself.

PvP gamers always think gaming is about competing , showing how amazing one is and "p3wning" everyone else. This character-type of course includes ruining other peoples games and disrespecting everyone thats "below them".

Coop isn't about shooting AI , it's about cooperating with other players to achieve a goal together.

That said , any mission-type can have cooperative elements in it to a varying degree. But the simpleton PvP types(CTF,DM) don't have that much , because they are outdated and not that complex.

Hence I don't see the surprise why not many people are attracted to them.

Addition: It always completely baffles me that people buy a game with huge islands, AI unlike in any other game and expect the whole community to play shoebox-DM like in any other game by the way

PvP is all about competing because there are people on both sides competing for victory. Regarding PvP players' attitude, I think it's the other way around. Just check the Hexenkessel thread in my sig to see how coop and "tactical" players contribute to the discussion. Then you can search every single coop map thread for slander from PvP minded individuals but you will find none.

I'm not sure if it's politically correct to say but PvP players are the niggers of this community. They just want to do their thing without bothering others but the others just can't mind their own business. Every time a PvP related suggestion comes up (such as animation issues), there will be dozens of people denying any reported problems and telling the thread starter to play Counter-Strike or somesuch.

Re: Addition

Because the game is realistic and the environment is already there, no need to build it from scrap: just pick a location. You can't have PvP with such realistic game mechanics (weapons and vehicles) in other games. CTF needs to have borders to keep the fight consistent instead of having Evolution or Berzerk style lone wolves doing their own thing god knows where. There are a few examples of borderless or loose bordered CTFs and they almost always escalate to camping on some faraway hills.

And just so you know, nobody is expecting the whole community to play just one game mode, except maybe some narrow-minded coop players.

You are assuming I play EVO. I do not, ok. Evolution seems to be the only mode available if you browse public servers. Like choosing a wife in a nightclub. You gonna get slappers. There are many servers, albeit closed ones, that offer multiple game modes. get involved go to a forum post your interest and you'll soon be pwning your noobs in PvP. Or is that the problem? Public servers are awash with noobs that are easy kills and the closed servers have the more experienced players.

As for quick aiming I can hold my own as far as ArmA allows for fast paced aiming. I have Unreal 3 and Planetside for that twitch fix.

I notice you have Hexenkessle in your sig. I was playing that over 5 years ago in OFP. Move on

I'm not assuming anything about your playing habits, I was telling solid facts about what is being played out there, and most of it is simply Evolution and the few PvP games are Berzerk which is almost equally boring with launcher wielding snipers flying choppers and driving tanks. If you're telling me to join every clan out there and get their private server passwords to play "quality" games, you find the same Evolution missions played on closed servers with a similar ratio.

Regarding my sig, it's a showcase of the things I have made for Armed Assault. How much have you contributed?

Mature players like to grind mindless AI opponents for higher ranks? Because Evolution is basically all this game has to offer online, the rest are under a very big rock. Indeed ArmA to its full potential.

Oh please, Celery... That's like saying all Counter-Strike has to offer online is mindless TDM with random noobs because that's what most of the public servers play.

No, wait... damn it... that's exactly what you want from ArmA

If you play PvP mindlessly, you will only get spanked by better players again and again. It requires much more individual skill than shooting AI platoon after another leaning behind a corner. ArmA would be perfectly capable of supporting PvP games with only a few universal game fixes. Unfortunately those fixes are hard to implement in a mod unlike many non-PvP advocates like to believe, not to mention the difficulty of enforcing such a mod on public servers.

[The Susser 0]

PvP rocks. Coop rocks. IMO CTF sucks. After playing Tribes 2, CTF in any other format just feels like a half assed effort. Anyway these arguments are silly. I doubt many have not enjoyed CTF missions where an entire clan using vent has a public server and is wtfpwning the less organised side. No this is not crying cause I was owned its a comment on unbalanced gameplay. Great for the clans morale and the hangers on. Killing the appeal of CTF to the non clan members. You are your own worse enemy.

[celery 8]

PvP rocks. Coop rocks. IMO CTF sucks. After playing Tribes 2, CTF in any other format just feels like a half assed effort. Anyway these arguments are silly. I doubt many have not enjoyed CTF missions where an entire clan using vent has a public server and is wtfpwning the less organised side. No this is not crying cause I was owned its a comment on unbalanced gameplay. Great for the clans morale and the hangers on. Killing the appeal of CTF to the non clan members. You are your own worse enemy.

That can be said about ablosutely every multiplayer game out there but still millions of people play them. The answer to this thread's topic is that ArmA has some serious gameplay problems. I don't even need to speculate about it, dozens of OFP teams quitting or skipping ArmA have said it on the forum, including mine.

[PuFu 4597]

I agree with sickboy on this. The war between pvp players and coop players is idiotic. Two different types of game.

Me and my clan usually play coop, more or less tactical, but we host events where we get more serious about it. Joint Coops are always fun, Matt Rochell is right there. And if you think Evolution is the only coop map out there you are so wrong (we don't host it, and we never missed it). It's way easier to have a good game going with a lot less players on the server. Running 6thSense.eu AIAccuracy and 6thSense AIRange together with DMSmokeGrenadeVB and Durg's vegetation fix server side allowed us to have some more fun fighting AI. Cheers for making those lads!

The problem with PvP games is rushing, and ppl that camp the other's base - scorewhores. It's mission's fault on a side, but it's also players fault. It hardly ever turns into strategy gameplay - you can't have everyone on TS, you can't have everyone acting accordingly. This is one of the aspects that turned most Arma players away from the PvP games. You can not enforce to anyone on public servers to act in this way or another. Besides, the options that are out there for this kind of game is limited = Berzerk. I know there are other maps CTF and such out there, but they turn into CS way to often.

I am a veteran in International Conflict Tourney and a juniour member of ATOW. So i get my weekly share of good PvP game, all under certain rules, with no ppl going rambo and with everybody assigned to a certain role. IC tournout for the past 3 weeks was 100+ people in two sides that fight each others according to plan that was put together during the week. There are commanders, companies COs and squad leaders that need to holster their men, disobeying orders is something that is not tolerated. You don't see ppl tking for vehicles, running away by themselves and so on, because everyone know what he has to do, everyone is on TS! So great PvP games can be hosted and run, but i think NOT ON PUBLIC SERVERS.

About the 1.09 servers. We had our server patched, game seemed to run well server side and client side, but we had 2-3 players on average connected, while with 1.08 we had 10-15 in the afternoons and full server in the evening (that is either because everyone is playing that damn Evo map, or because there is just a bunch of ppl with 1.09 installed and running). This will hopefully change once a final patch is released, and there will be no more splitting the community like today.