Another "FRIENDLY" fire incident

[DBO_ 0]

just saw this on rueters .

3 british soldiers killed in afghanistan

Quote[/b] ]The soldiers were on a mission to disrupt Taliban activity north west of Kajaki, in the lawless Helmand province.

"Their patrol was attacked by Taliban insurgents and during the intense engagement that ensued, close air support was called in from two U.S. F15 aircraft to repel the enemy," the ministry said in a statement.

[ebns72 0]

Things could be worse.

[PainDealer 0]

Admirable talent... Is it the lack of training or what raising the friendly fire numbers so high

[Dwarden 1125]

FF happens ... just today because of instant media we know and moan about ...

sure it suck to be victim of FF but consider FF in WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Iran vs Iraq, Checnya,, Iraq1, Afganistant Iraq2

what You see ? permanent decline on FF losses while huge increase in precision of any type weapons ...

you get more soldiers dead by crashes and mistake incidents on bases than in Friendly Fire ...

end of drama mode ...

[Gisen 0]

It's basically the result of poor attitude and training of the US pilots.

The U.S. armed forces have a reputation for being gun-happy with a lack of knowledge of the vehicles and equipment used by their allies - because they are.

[shinRaiden 0]

It's basically the result of poor attitude and training of the US pilots.

The U.S. armed forces have a reputation for being gun-happy with a lack of knowledge of the vehicles and equipment used by their allies - because they are.

There was a case earlier of a US aircraft firing on a UK light motor infantry column, the radio comms are actually on the intardwebs for download somewhere.

The aircraft was doing patrols, and spotted something suspicious. Closer investigation showed military vehicles with which the pilot was unfamiliar with. The vehicles also had what appeared to the pilot to be orange IFF panels. The pilot radioed to control that he was observing an unidentified force, but it appeared to have IFF panels. Control stated that there were no friendlies in the area. Pilot repeated his concern, and was cleared by the control, and began his 'cowboy run'. Almost immediately afterwards, control then called the pilot off when the coalition liaison radioed in the report of FF casualties. Clearly a trigger-happy yankee imperialist vindicating all the mass media hysterical stereotypes.

The news report gives no operational details, only that CAS was called and friendly forces were casualties from the CAS strike itself, and that an investigation is pending. Wait until there's some usable info before rushing to judgment and condemnation.

[AWDrift 0]

I'm sorry for the soldier's families, but don't trash the whole U.S. military. This happens in all wars.

[DBO_ 0]

Hi just to clarify i havent posted tis in order to debate the "gung ho" u.s pilots ,My thought was that here we have an army that is down on moral and lacking in any real support from its government in terms of numbers and logistics and then this happens , it really couldnt get much worse for them ,could it ?

To put the other debate into context i think the balance of how many lives the U.S airforce in there CAS role have saved in this theatre may not make it better but would paint it in a propper light somewhat, afterall accidents do happen and even more so in this kind of climate.

[Gisen 0]

It's basically the result of poor attitude and training of the US pilots.

The U.S. armed forces have a reputation for being gun-happy with a lack of knowledge of the vehicles and equipment used by their allies - because they are.

There was a case earlier of a US aircraft firing on a UK light motor infantry column, the radio comms are actually on the intardwebs for download somewhere.

The aircraft was doing patrols, and spotted something suspicious. Closer investigation showed military vehicles with which the pilot was unfamiliar with. The vehicles also had what appeared to the pilot to be orange IFF panels. The pilot radioed to control that he was observing an unidentified force, but it appeared to have IFF panels. Control stated that there were no friendlies in the area. Pilot repeated his concern, and was cleared by the control, and began his 'cowboy run'. Almost immediately afterwards, control then called the pilot off when the coalition liaison radioed in the report of FF casualties. Clearly a trigger-happy yankee imperialist vindicating all the mass media hysterical stereotypes.

The news report gives no operational details, only that CAS was called and friendly forces were casualties from the CAS strike itself, and that an investigation is pending. Wait until there's some usable info before rushing to judgment and condemnation.

....and which nationality was Control?

Hmmmm. Tricky.

I don't know what you think that's evidence of, but to me it's evidence of poor training. If the pilot is trained to be a robot and follow all orders, no matter how wrong they are this type of thing will happen. Other, more professional militaries give the individual in the field a lot more discretion. Obviously there are situations where the individual might not like his orders but still needs to carry them out but that is not the same thing.

If the pilot was properly trained he would be familiar with a scimitar, Warrior IFV or a Challenger tank and would have corrected Control.

So yes, vindicating stereotypes.

**Edit**

If you're referring to the unlawful killing of Trooper Matty Hull by american A-10s, by the way, you've got the facts totally wrong. I assume you're talking about another incident.

@awdrift

yes, FF can happen in all wars and conflicts. However, the US military is notorious for doing it a lot more than everyone else due to the reasons I already stated.

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

It's basically the result of poor attitude and training of the US pilots.

The U.S. armed forces have a reputation for being gun-happy with a lack of knowledge of the vehicles and equipment used by their allies - because they are.

There was a case earlier of a US aircraft firing on a UK light motor infantry column, the radio comms are actually on the intardwebs for download somewhere.

The aircraft was doing patrols, and spotted something suspicious. Closer investigation showed military vehicles with which the pilot was unfamiliar with. The vehicles also had what appeared to the pilot to be orange IFF panels. The pilot radioed to control that he was observing an unidentified force, but it appeared to have IFF panels. Control stated that there were no friendlies in the area. Pilot repeated his concern, and was cleared by the control, and began his 'cowboy run'. Almost immediately afterwards, control then called the pilot off when the coalition liaison radioed in the report of FF casualties. Clearly a trigger-happy yankee imperialist vindicating all the mass media hysterical stereotypes.

The news report gives no operational details, only that CAS was called and friendly forces were casualties from the CAS strike itself, and that an investigation is pending. Wait until there's some usable info before rushing to judgment and condemnation.

That incident was criminal.  Those pilots should have been prosecuted for gross negligence.  They disregarded established NATO procedures (originally established by the US) and the inquest ruled that the killing was "Unlawful".

Read all about it here. - BBC Website

Its also very telling and interesting the 90% of the US news channels immediatley forgot about the case after the intial incident and did not report any of the subsequent issues around the case.

[Sennacherib 0]

the US army should stay in its country. a lot of people would be still alive. (i mean after the ww2).

[Heatseeker 0]

Im under the impression that the US military is involved in more FF incidents because they are the most active military force out there.. i dont think its necessary to hunt down exact figures for this.

How about some neutrality ( this an english word? ) in the forums?

Bush wasnt flying that F15...

[Marinecqc 0]

FF happens ... just today because of instant media we know and moan about ...

sure it suck to be victim of FF but consider FF in WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Iran vs Iraq, Checnya,, Iraq1, Afganistant Iraq2

what You see ? permanent decline on FF losses while huge increase in precision of any type weapons ...

you get more soldiers dead by crashes and mistake incidents on bases than in Friendly Fire ...

end of drama mode ...

Couldn't of explained it better...

Don't blame the friendly fire on the F-15s... When they call in Close air support then that means move the fuck out of the way before you get killed. The F-15 pilots probably were so high that they could tell whos who.

@D@nte - Why should we stay in our country? Do you want the US or Britain to be attacked continuously? I wouldn't, if you want us to get out of the war so fast then maybe we should finish a war and eliminate one of the worst terrorist groups out there.

[Marinecqc 0]

Hi just to clarify i havent posted tis in order to debate the "gung ho" u.s pilots ,My thought was that here we have an army that is down on moral and lacking in any real support from its government in terms of numbers and logistics and then this happens , it really couldnt get much worse for them ,could it ?

To put the other debate into context i think the balance of how many lives the U.S airforce in there CAS role have saved in this theatre  may not make it better but would paint it in a propper light somewhat, afterall accidents do happen and even more so in this kind of climate.

Hey,

Last time i checked USA had the best Army in the world... Best trained, motivated, and ready to kick some ass.

[red oct 2]

the US army should stay in its country. a lot of people would be still alive. (i mean after the ww2).

i'd rather we had just stayed out of all conflicts including both world wars.

But on topic

There are plenty of FF incidents that were done by the British in the Falklands War and in the Iraq war, does the BBC and other report it? No, they don't. I've never once seen any of the British Media air reports of FF caused by their forces on their web site. if they do is certianly is very brief. The usual cluster bombs and artillery strikes landing on civilians sort-of-thing.

http://www.ppu.org.uk/falklands/falklands3.html

wikipedia article about FF:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendly_fire#Use_in_British_culture

Quote[/b] ]1461 – War of the Roses: At the Battle of Towton, wind conditions often resulted in arrows falling amongst friendly troops as well as the enemy.

1471 - Battle of Barnet: The ‘radiant star’ battle standard used by the troops commanded by the Earl of Oxford was misidentified as an enemy standard (which depicted a ‘brilliant sun’) and were fired on by their own archers.

1809 - Battle of Wagram: French troops mistakenly fired on their allies from the Kingdom of Saxony. The uniforms of the Saxon’s were grey and misidentified as white, the colour of uniform worn by their Austrian enemy.

1815 – Battle of Waterloo: Famously, Marshal Blücher’s Prussians came to the aid of the British, and defeated Napoleon decisively. Lesser known is that Prussian artillery mistakenly fired on British artillery causing many casualties, and British artillery returned fire at the Prussians.

1863 - Lt. Gen. T. J. “Stonewall†Jackson, famous Confederate Civil War general accidentally mortally wounded by his own troops at Chancellorsville, VA.

1914-1918 – World War I: The French have estimated that more than 75,000 French soldiers were casualties of friendly artillery in the four years of World War I[5].

1939 (10 September - early World War II) – British submarine HMS Triton sank another British submarine, HMS Oxley, mistaking it for a German U-boat and having received no responses to challenges. Oxley was the first Royal Navy vessel to be sunk and also the first vessel to be sunk by a British vessel in the war.

1940

Italian Air Marshal Italo Balbo shot down by his own side.

Operation Wikinger: German destroyer sunk by Luftwaffe bombs, another sunk by mines during confusion[7]

1941

Fleet Air Arm torpedo attack on HMS Sheffield during the hunt for the German battleship Bismarck

RAF fighter ace Wing Commander Douglas Bader shot down in what recent research suggests was a friendly fire incident [8].

1942 - Polish submarine ORP JastrzÄ…b was mistakenly sunk by British destroyer HMS St. Albans and minesweeper HMS Seagull.

1943 – Operation Husky (Allied Invasion of Sicily): 144 C-47 transport planes passed over Allied lines shortly after a German air raid, and were mistakenly fired upon by ground and naval forces, 33 planes were shot down and 37 damaged, resulting in 318 casualties.

1944

British flotilla attacked by RAF Hawker Typhoons, off Cap d'Antifer, Le Havre. HMS Britomart and HMS Hussar sunk. HMS Salamander damaged beyond repair and scrapped. HMS Jason escaped major damage.

Operation Wintergewitter (Winter Storm) - Italian Front: American forward observer John R. Fox called down fire on his own position to stop a German advance on the town of Sommocolonia, Italy. In 1997 he was posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor for this action.

In October 1944 Soviet troops with help of Yugoslav partisan's movement has oust German Nazi forces from city of Nis, in southern Serbia. While in Nis liberation celebration was underway, Soviet troops consisted of tanks were gaining toward Serbian capital Belgrade. In the same time about 50 km west, American air force were bombing German-Albanian unit which were entraining from Kosovo. Somehow, US air-forces probably uninformed about fast gaining of Soviet army have identified them as Germans and attack them. Soviet troops unable to defend, has called up for help, and soon from Nis airport has arrived Soviet air planes. Fight between US air forces and Red army airplanes took places above Nis itself, and last only 5 minutes, when both Russian and US command has ordered to their own plains to retreat.[citation needed]

1945 – Operation Bodenplatte (Baseplate): 900 German fighters and fighter-bombers launched a surprise attack on Allied airfields, approximately 300 aircraft were lost, 237 pilots killed, missing, or captured, and 18 pilots wounded - the largest single-day loss for the Luftwaffe, many losses were due to friendly anti-aircraft guns.

1956 - Suez: Attacks from British Royal Navy carrier-borne aircraft caused heavy casualties to UK 45 Commando and HQ.

1967 - USS Liberty Incident when Israeli aircraft attacked U.S. Navy ship in international waters during the Six-Day War (between Israel and Egypt).

1968 - USS Boston, USS Edson, USCGC Point Dume, HMAS Hobart and two U.S. Swift Boats, PCF-12 and PCF-19 are attacked by US aircraft on June 17 in the Vietnam War.[9] Several sailors were killed and PCF-19 was sunk. [10]

1969 - U.S. Helicopters attack U.S. 3/187th Infantry Battalion CP during the Battle of Hamburger Hill, killing two and wounding thirty-five, including Lt. Col. Weldon Honeycutt.

1974 - Turkish Destroyer Kocatepe was sunk by Turkish aircraft during the Turkish invasion of Cyprus.

1982

HMS Cardiff shoots down AAC Gazelle (UK) in the Falklands Islands.

3rd Battalion, Parachute Regiment, British Army (UK) Companies A and C engage each other in an hour-long firefight in the Falkland Islands involving heavy weapons and artillery strikes. At least 8 UK casualties.

United Kingdom UK Special Boat Service Commando killed in firefight with UK Special Air Service Commandos. Falkland Islands.

British Royal Marine Christopher Maddison killed when his river patrol boat was hit by missiles after being wrongly identified as an enemy vessel approaching a Royal Engineers checkpoint on the Al-Faw Peninsula, Iraq.[6]

Heres a very recient one from the same wiki article

Quote[/b] ]British Challenger 2 tank came under fire from another British tank in a nighttime firefight, blowing off the turret and killing two crew members, Corporal Stephen John Allbutt and Trooper David Jeffrey Clarke [12]

at least when we cause FF we usually have the excuse of being up 16,000 feet traveling mach 1. What was the excuse of these tank boys? I could say that all Brittish Tank crews are complete morons and should learn how to opperate a tank just like contry y,x, or Z  like what everybody is saying about the US military, but I'd just settle w/ the fact FF is a reality of war and the larger the army or conflict the more likely it's going to happen. that and some certian individuals in britain stop w/ the "We are perfect" attitude. Art

[zaphod 0]

NEVER play with AI ... you want to play a Multiplayer Map? .. try BERZERK .... v2.0 with team dialog ... coming soon ...

Regards,

Zap

[Blackbuck 9]

That was pure spam...

The Americans 90% of the time get away with FF incidents saying that no friendlies were "reported" in the area. Just because tower says there's no friendly forces near by diesn't make that that info 100% correct what ever happened to common sense.

[Gisen 0]

report it? No, they don't. I've never once seen any of the British Media air reports of FF caused by their forces on their web site. if they do is certianly is very brief. The usual cluster bombs and artillery strikes landing on civilians sort-of-thing.

Then you aren't checking the news very often, BBC news certainly reports blue on blue any time that it happens. How do you think half of those reports got out? Also, the MoD is a lot better (but still not good enough) than the US at releasing information about these incidents and actually investigating them. Look up the 'Matty Hull' incident.

Quote[/b] ]

at least when we cause FF we usually have the excuse of being up 16,000 feet traveling mach 1. What was the excuse of these tank boys? I could say that all Brittish Tank crews are complete morons and should learn how to opperate a tank just like contry y,x, or Z like what everybody is saying about the US military, but I'd just settle w/ the fact FF is a reality of war and the larger the army or conflict the more likely it's going to happen. that and some certian individuals in britain stop w/ the "We are perfect" attitude. Art

How's about

1) They don't have IFF systems

2) It was pitch black, they were using NVGs

3) It was a SANDSTORM

It's amazing how many people don't get it. Friendly fire is a fact of warfare. HOWEVER, american forces have very poor target recognition training compared to, say, British forces AND they have this Gung Ho 'shoot anything that moves' attitude that makes the problem far worse.

[NeMeSiS 11]

The F-15 pilots probably were so high that they could tell whos who.

So they just guess and bomb everyone?

[Baff1 0]

My bet is that the British forces serving underneath the American aeroplanes are extremely grateful to have them up there.

And that they prefer the American airforce even to the RAF. Who have less aircraft, with their lower weapons system flexibility and their lower response times.

I also reckon that the F15's have a dedicated bomb aimer onboard which gives the aircraft a greater chance of bombing accuracy/integrity than a lone pilot.

With an enagement range of 300 yards between friendly and enemy forces the accident could have been anything from a mistyped gps co-ordinate to a guidance malfunction. It's far to early to start ringing the "America sucks" bell.

It will be intresting to see how well the Typhoon pilots fare in comparison to their highly experienced U.S. counterparts when they start running the same kind of missions with the same kinds of ordinance on the same battlefields for the first time.

I have a soft spot for the Royal Anglicans and I am angry to hear that they weren't equiped with all the FST tools available to British forces during this incident.

There is no excuse for underfunding from a society as wealthy as our own.

Quote[/b] ]Hey,

Last time i checked USA had the best Army in the world... Best trained, motivated, and ready to kick some ass.

I can think of at least one army in the world with a 50% more extensive training program than the U.S.

I assume there are others. I don't think the U.S. army are described as "best trained" anywhere outside of the U.S.

Motivated and ready to kick ass, I would not dispute. Some argue, a little too motivated to kick arse.

While perhaps not the most professional of militaries, (though certainly not without professionalism) you really can't complain about people who not only turn up to war but are willing to fight when they get there.

[-Snafu- 78]

There are plenty of FF incidents that were done by the British in the Falklands War and in the Iraq war, does the BBC and other report it? No, they don't. I've never once seen any of the British Media air reports of FF caused by their forces on their web site. if they do is certianly is very brief.

It's pretty hard to report on things when there is very little information about a particular incident, because the Ministry of Defence try to cover it up. As would the US Gov. when a similar situation occurs.(Pat Tillman)

Take the Sergeant Roberts case for example. There was a big flop about it in Britain because he did not have an ECBA. He was in the Royal Tank Regiment. Tragically in the early days of the Second Iraq War he was shot and killed while dismounted from his tank.

The first part of the problem was the MoD's instinctive response whenever anything goes wrong. Whenever a mistake is made the MoD strive furiously to suppress the facts, hoping that time will pass and indignation will die down before anything becomes public. However his death had been the result of a tragic mistake, it wasn't really anything to do with body armour.

What had occured was a friendly fire incident. It had been noted that he was killed by a 7,62 tracer round. Emphasis on tracer. This gives strong indication that it was a British weapon that had killed him. Moreover the MoD was investigating his death with particular thoroughness, a full autopsy was carried out and this isn't normally done on battle casualties unless there is suspicion of friendly fire. Furthermore Sergeant Roberts' CO in the customary letter to his wife said that a MG opened fire in support of Roberts' killing an Iraqi but also tragically hitting Steve.

Nobody was willing to tell Mrs Roberts' plainly that her husband was killed by friendly fire. This is normal; the MoD always tries to cover up FF incidents. They say it is to spare the families feelings. What it is actually hoping is that it will avoid being called to account for killing it's own people. It was a full year before Mrs Roberts' received a proper account on her husbands death.

FF incidents are not new. They happen every so often even in peacetime and will inevitably rise during war time. In the end the armed forces are in the industry of death and violence. They are always going to suffer more industrial accidents than other employers do simply because their machinery is more dangerous by design.

Quote[/b] ]And that they prefer the American airforce even to the RAF. Who have less aircraft, with their lower weapons system flexibility and their lower response times.

This is just speculation. Yes the RAF does have it's shortcomings as do all the other arms. But when the situation occurs there is a commendable push when the Army is screaming for air support and the RAF quickly try to deliver it. One of the main problems is a lack of training between the Army and the RAF, particualrly in communications. Logic would dictate that communication between the British Army and the USAF would be far more problematic considering these forces belong to two seperate nations. But then again I do not know how NATO is commanded in the 'Stan. Like I said, speculation.

[Lamont 0]

Friendly fire? Or getting a taste of their own medicine? You decide!

[ran 0]

It will be intresting to see how well the Typhoon pilots fare in comparison to their highly experienced U.S. counterparts when they start running the same kind of missions with the same kinds of ordinance on the same battlefields for the first time.

huhu ... erm, sorry

Didn't the typhoon team experience some issues with guided bombs integrations quite recently ?

Anyway, back on topic, this thread reminds me of another long long discussion about friendly fire, but in that case it was about a pair of ANG F16's against canucks, it also reminds me of the recent incident involving british CVR/T used as targets for A10 gunnery practice.

-edit- issues with my new keyboard

[Average Joe 0]

Friendly fire? Or getting a taste of their own medicine? You decide!

What the hell do you mean...explain...

[ran 0]

Friendly fire? Or getting a taste of their own medicine? You decide!

What the hell do you mean...explain...

experiencing the effets of airpower from underneath and feel the "assymetry" in assymetric warfare heh