Advanced Combat Environment

[phaeden 0]

The values will be/are based on real world data and then "altered" to make it playable (playable realism).

An M1A2 firing a KEW-2 round will be able to either immediately kill or highly damage a T55 while the T55 firing an old round might only slightly damage the M1.

In a M1 v T90 fight, the odds will be even (give or take a point here or there). I'm personally doing my best to avoid any ethnocentricity while creating ACE.

We are also looking into things like the T72 guided rocket round which can engage M1s at 4,000m while the M1s can only return fire to 3,000m +/-. So, in a direct gun on gun fight, the M1 may still come out on top v a T72, but the T72 will have a weapon that the M1 doesn't.

The hardest part with creating a mod of this scope is to make things "balanced" overall - just as they are in the real world. The US equipment might be 'tougher' but the Russians have more of it.

I am also looking at a lot of real world reports of equipment effectiveness in Iraq/Afghan. Much of what was said five years ago about vehicles is now know to be wrong or in large error.

The main goal is to provide the player with an experience that is thrilling, enjoyable, and gives them a good dosage of reality. In real life, tanks can be killed with one round. In a game, that means the player has to respawn possibly without ever seeing the opposition. In ACE, tanks can still be killed with one round (as demonstrated above), but typically will result in engagements that are more thrilling.

This will, among other things, hopefully add to people's desire to work as an effective team.

[Guest]

I wasn't on the WGL team for ofp, but I can safely say that we will do our best to keep everything even.

The Abrams is one of the best armored vehicles in the world followed closely by the UK Challenger, not many armored vehicles per say Russian can compete speed, range, armament and of course technology. As Pheaden said they just have more of them..

[phaeden 0]

In that vein, if any of you can provide real world data (especially on RUS equipment), I would be grateful.

Finding specific technical data is a bit hard for foreign countries.

[mechastalin 0]

In that vein, if any of you can provide real world data (especially on RUS equipment), I would be grateful.

Finding specific technical data is a bit hard for foreign countries.

Yeah, data is very hard to find and then even then its usually slanted in some form. Although some info on older equipment does exist.

When the early M-48 and T-54s went head to head they found that neither tank could penetrate the other front armor. So M48 and T-54/55 series should be pretty ineffective against each other except for the side and rear hits.

Here is an interesting armor chart, I dont think they're exact real world values but they are based on them I imagine and keep the tanks pretty balanced realistic to each other. Make sure to read the notes at the bottom though.

http://members.tripod.com/collinsj/protect.htm

It also includes info for Export models of the T-72 and the like which I would imagine being useful if you're going to model other countries than just Russia/Soviets.

In terms of newer tanks, The T-80 and Abrams from around the same era should pretty much be able to penetrate each other quite well, Only the newest western models can survive a shot even through the front armor from the T-80s gun with good ammo. Older models of Leopard and Abrams should go down fairly easily and same goes for the T-80. Although the old 105mm mounted on the very first Abrams and Pattons had trouble penetrating a tank like the T-80 through its toughest armor.

Since the T-64, T-72, T-80, and T-90 share the same basic gun they can all use very late design ammo, so older tanks like the T-64 and T-72 loaded with modern ammo are a threat to most western models but have inferior fire control and the like. But for ArmAs sake they should have similar punch when using the same ammo, but newer tanks have better quality barrels etc.

And the last thing I would like to mention is ERA packages, the ERA initially applied to the T-72 could complete stop the current SABOT rounds fired by the Leopard 1 and M1 Abrams. So generally a Russian tank with ERA is pretty well protected from anything but ammo that came after that ERA package was designed. So an early Abrams like the M1 or M1A1 would have trouble penetrating most if not all Russian tanks with ERA unless it had the newest ammo available loaded for SABOT, although HEATs are pretty much useless against ERA. I'm not too good with tank ammo but the best way to do it would to look at the time an ERA package came into service and basically make all ammo types that were in service before it not very effective except against the tracks, gun, engine, etc.

Hope that wasnt too much to swallow. :P If you need me to go iinto more detail about anything just ask.

Also just a quick thing about that armor value site.

"Protection levels for US MBT's are larger than usually quoted because the US standard is for a 30 degrees oblique shot. To return to US Army style measurements divide all figures on chart by 1.15. NII Stali estimate M1A1HA turret at 700mm versus KE, 850mm versus CE for a 30 degrees oblique shot. GSPO/BTVT estimates M1A1 at 480-500 versus KE and 790-840 versus CE, M1A1HA at 530-550 versus KE and 750-780 versus CE, M1A2 at 770 versus KE and 1000-1200 versus CE."

[operation madman 0]

can you add ieds? and some mujahideen armys? like al-quada and iraqi resitance and "sucide bombers" and in the future can you include a mosk? as i need to prey! and also can you add voice commands like ALLHU AKBAR! TAKBEER! and can you make a flag and vehicles that have "lah ilah illa llah". I would love to be martyed virtualy(cough#not in real life:wink:)

and can youbase some of the weapons iron sight based on vbs2. and it wouldbe awsome if you use the script thatmake you able to walk and shoot from vehicles? it is somewere in the desussion page. can you make it an addon? and add missile hook up to a 4x4 and some rockets aswell.

here are sujjestion but its these seems a bit to far... can you include a working sword? and can you make some woman models wearing hijab?

My quess is that this is a script mod and cantainssome addons thou. andi know it is not a mod made to make some mujahideens. butcould you include it in the future plz

[dslyecxi 23]

can you add ieds? and some mujahideen armys? like al-quada and iraqi resitance and "sucide bombers" and in the future can you include a mosk? as i need to prey! and also can you add voice commands like ALLHU AKBAR! TAKBEER! and can you make a flag and vehicles that have "lah ilah illa llah". I would love to be martyed virtualy(cough#not in real life:wink:)

and can youbase some of the weapons iron sight based on vbs2. and it wouldbe awsome if you use the script thatmake you able to walk and shoot from vehicles? it is somewere in the desussion page. can you make it an addon? and add missile hook up to a 4x4 and some rockets aswell.

here are sujjestion but its these seems a bit to far... can you include a working sword? and can you make some woman models wearing hijab?

My quess is that this is a script mod and cantainssome addons thou. andi know it is not a mod made to make some mujahideens. butcould you include it in the future plz

Uh...

Hopefully the answer to most of that is "No". I'd hate to see ACE waste time with such things when a stand-up, "traditional" war focus is so much more interesting and enjoyable from the gameplay perspective.

[phaeden 0]

Thanks for the tank information.

Regarding IEDs, etc. The answer is partially yes. We will have IEDs/roadside bombs. We will have some limited "freedom fighter" classes. Vehicles with rockets, etc are pretty easy. As for swords and suicide bombers (etc) the answer is no. With some much else to cover, those sorts of things have very low priority (not to mention moral issues).

[operation madman 0]

Cool. can you add alot of smoke? and make a script that makes them shoot the missiles as if it was artillery?

can you at least add the command ALLHU AKBAR! it should only take 1-2hours. just get the audio from a youtube vid..

anyway i have played WGL and i never played anything other then wgl so i am looking forward for your mod.

[phaeden 0]

Smoke will be a much larger "player" in ACE than in vanilla ArmA.  Depending upon the weapon, smoke will vary in size and duration.

How each weapon will be used will depend on the weapon, unit, and tactics required.

[operation madman 0]

so when will this be released? and what are yougoingto include in the first release? will the smoke effect be included becuase smoke effects are a big deal to me as i lovet he feeling of shreading the place. oh and when bullets impact is it going to be Huge(in deserts) and will it last longer? i hated the factthat the smoke disapars in 1 second.

Are you including new sounds for the weapons?

looking foward for your mod. I cant wait! we got a cool mod know all we need are some cool maps and we are set for the great arma era like ofp haves.

[phaeden 0]

I can't put any release date out there yet (as I've learned they always pass without a release), but right now we are in internal testing, which will be followed by limited external alpha, then on to internal then external betas, finally we will release to the public.

It will have new sounds, new effects, new (and expanded)units, new interface (GUI), and many other features.

[opteryx 1562]

I think realistic Armour values is all fine and dandy, but what I feel is sorely lacking in ArmA which would truly make AFV's realistic, is onboard targeting and command systems such as LRF, auxiliary sights, Ballistic computer, manual range entry, CITV, TIS, automatic lead, incremental zoom (not variable) with correct reticle scale relative to level of magnification, authentic reticules, TC override etc...

I know that asking this of the ArmA engine may be much, but if doable, would ACE implement such features?

I think that will really give AFV's individual identities and add true feeling of west vs. east technology.

[phaeden 0]

As for specific upgrades to TC and Gunner positions, I would absolutely LOVE to be able to do all those things (that and thermal), but I don't know how far I can bend ArmA before it breaks. If you know of the code/scripts that would allow for such improvements, please point me in the right direction.

The Zoom is possible (I think, but I don't know about the incremental part - maybe if I trick it into thinking it is a different weapons class... hmmm).

[opteryx 1562]

Quote[/b] ]If you know of the code/scripts that would allow for such improvements, please point me in the right direction.

Sorry I am right in the middle of learning basic addon editing so my knowledge is very elementary, there is however a thread somewhere on these forums where someone posted some scripts where he was trying to make a LRF, but I can' seem to find them now:hm:

Quote[/b] ]The Zoom is possible (I think, but I don't know about the incremental part - maybe if I trick it into thinking it is a different weapons class... hmmm).

My idea for the gunner would be to modify a aircraft HUD, increase the speed of the zoom drastically somehow so that when pressing -/+ you would only be able to view normal and max zoom, this would also keep the reticule scale at a correct level relative to the magnification since you're also zooming in on the HUD, leaving all intervals on the reticules's range indicators at the same value when zooming.

Also, (this I belive would be unique to the Abrams) to simulate automatic lead when lasing a target, the moddified HUD reticle could lag behind at the appropriate distance needed to compansate for the projectiles time of flight, but the projectile would still fire from the center and catch up with the target.

[mechastalin 0]

Quote[/b] ]If you know of the code/scripts that would allow for such improvements, please point me in the right direction.

Sorry I am right in the middle of learning basic addon editing so my knowledge is very elementary, there is however a thread somewhere on these forums where someone posted some scripts where he was trying to make a LRF.

Quote[/b] ]The Zoom is possible (I think, but I don't know about the incremental part - maybe if I trick it into thinking it is a different weapons class... hmmm).

My idea for the gunner would be to modify a aircraft HUD, increase the speed of the zoom drastically somehow so that when pressing -/+ you would only be able to view normal and max zoom, this would also keep the reticule scale at a correct level relative to the magnification since you're also zooming in on the HUD, leaving all intervals on the reticules's range indicators at the same value when zooming.

Also, (this I belive would be unique to the Abrams) to simulate automatic lead when lasing a target, the moddified HUD reticle could lag behind at the appropriate distance needed to compansate for the projectiles time of flight, but the projectile would still fire from the center and catch up with the target.

I think most Russian tanks since the T-72 can automatically lead but im not sure how it displays it on the gunners sight if at all.

[opteryx 1562]

Quote[/b] ]I think most Russian tanks since the T-72 can automatically lead but im not sure how it displays it on the gunners sight if at all.

I'm not a 100% sure about this, but I think they do the exact opposite of the Abrams, instead of lagging the reticule behind I think they compensate with adding a slight adjustment to the main gun's azimuth keeping the reticule static, if someone here knows better I wouldn't mind being corrected.

[phaeden 0]

heheh - that was me asking about the LRF and we got it working.

[mechastalin 0]

heheh - that was me asking about the LRF and we got it working.

Excellent, now all we need is a way for the gun to auto-elevate or the scalable optics so we can have the gunner do it manually.

Also I'm going to experiment with custom armor selections in a bit. If they work we'll be good for tank armor on the front/rear etc and maybe even ERA. If it doesn't I'll have to propose something to BIS.

[phaeden 0]

Just a quick Alpha build of one of the Australian UH60s:

[bravo 6 0]

looks natural.

cant wait to see more of this mod

[wolfsblut_ 0]

Looks realistic. Congratulation.

[operation madman 0]

I dont know what this is called so i will try to explain it.... are you going to make extra armor(like pipes around the abrams) that protect it more from rpgs and other at weapons.

[granQ 293]

Thanks for the tank information.

Regarding IEDs, etc. The answer is partially yes. We will have IEDs/roadside bombs. We will have some limited "freedom fighter" classes. Vehicles with rockets, etc are pretty easy. As for swords and suicide bombers (etc) the answer is no. With some much else to cover, those sorts of things have very low priority (not to mention moral issues).

Not saying "how you should make it" but we did a afghanistan "construct checkpoints, don't kill civs, watch out for talibans" mission once that included suicide bombers, they added alot. ALOT to the mission.

Moral or not, i think they are great. What we did was basicly "civillians" that had a script, (Same displayname), that would run towards enemy or drives a car if close and then explode.

Added to that we had civillians coming to heal at the ambulance and medics.. it created alot of tension. This was all by NPC in an adverisal mission.

Just hoping you to reconsider it, for a modern mod it should take place and it's that we haven't seen it in wgl. The guy that runs up to the tank and place a mine, taking one for the team.

[operation madman 0]

adding vbs1 features like walking in an aircraft and opening hatches and doors will make this mod truly popular.

Are you changing the game engine? anyway i hope you include that walkable feature aswell as funtionable stuff like hatches and doors in armored vehicles.and add simular tracers like in vbs2.. just copy someones else script to make it, with their permission of course. are you going to change the ironsight view? becuase it zooms in to munch and plus their is a zoom option aswell and that is really unrealistic. but i sujjest changing the game engine so we can actually see the enemy far away like we did in ofp. before changing the zoom option.

[MehMan 0]

You can't change the game engine. Well you can, but it's illegal.