The next step in gaming should not be graphics...

[Sgt_Eversmann 1]

Don´t want to turn down the fun, but they already did so in OFP

I have been blown to bits quite some times by a guy with a satchel.

BTW, does anyone know if they still ignite the satchel via radio ?

I guess they should use satchel-timer for that action by default as

it happened to me that I did not see him planting the device, but was then alerted by the beeping and took out the guy on his retreat. Would be nice if the satchel would still blow with the timer. Could cause some hectic and panic and unwanted firefights when leaving your cover

Guess I will add it to wishlist.

erm oh.

so it was already there in ofp.

never run into such a situation.

sry then.

thought it was new

[Fred DM 0]

+ Ai Behaviour against snipers is much better in 1.05. Just replay one of the sniper missions in the campaign and you will notice that you can't snipe a whole squad anymore from one position only.

oh yes you can. even worse, in that SF sniper mission early in the campaign you can snipe two squads of enemy infantry from that watertower without risk of actually getting hit. i just tested that in 1.05 a couple of days ago.

the mission is meant to be easy, though, since it's early in the campaign, so it's all good.

[kavoven 4]

I may add few other things that AI now does (and didn't in OFP):

- leap frogging

- taking cover more actively (also for reloading) in combat

We put a lot of effort to AI in ArmA and made singificant progress in that area. Of course, there's a lot that can be improved, as always. But it truly shocks me to see repeated often that the AI in ArmA is the same or even worse than in OFP.

Oh, the commander himself came out to defend his troops

I have to admit that I was really surprised by the demo AI, who suddenly came from the opposite direction I expected them to come.

I think this speaks for itself.

On the other side, as mentioned before, the driving skills still look some kind of weired and I really hope to see improvements in this place. Basic skills in general. (And I don't mean cooking or repairing my cloths :P )

[dmarkwick 261]

Hmm, the crew is firing upon them and they fire at the empty and damaged vehicle. Is that smart?

It might not be smart (which I think it is BTW), but it is realistic. In the end, I prefer the slightly unpredictable AI that makes real-world mistakes (as long as they're realistic mistakes), I might have been hiding behind that vehicle hoping the AI wouldn't target it. I wouldn't do that against real soldiers in a real firefight if they were previously targeting that vehicle, and now I won't do that in ArmA either.

[memnoch 0]

You're right, AI should be a priority.

But you can't deny that the AI has been improved since OFP. Taking cover, flanking etc. It could be better of course, but creating a truly intelligent AI isn't exactly easy.

And it can also be quite CPU intensive. If they put in some super AI the game might run even more slowly that it sometimes does now. And we don't want that after all. It would be nice to see though. Imagine being stalked by the AI through buildings and over rooftops. Or driving through a town and have a squad commandeer a vehicle and give chase!

EDIT: In reference to the AI as mentioned in this thread, I have two examples of irregularity that happened during the same mission last night. I was a Sniper NW of Cayo on the Air Cavalry co-op map. I had killed a handful of soldiers guarding the tanks and then a BMP turned up. Both the driver and gunner were unbuttoned so I took a shot at the gunner. I took him out with my first shot and the driver buttoned up. One RPG later and he was toast. About 10-15 minutes later another BMP rolled up with all 3 unbuttoned. It was a lot closed than the first and I misjudged my shots and missed 3 times, once hitting the vehicle body and the other two hitting the hatches. But they didnt even twitch. I then sniped all 3 in succession and they just sat there and died!! We earned a vehicle for our troubles but it was a lame way to get it.

[derfalpha 0]

I agree with the idea of concentrating not primarily on graphics technology, but the artistic pursuit instead. Unfortunately the video games industry is just that, an industry. Driven by sales and how better to sell something than to make it look very very attractive.

The funny thing is that there seems to be some trend regarding widespread reduction in profitability within big games, as I read in a BBC article some time ago. Unless games developers adapt to the changes required (smaller projects, more artistic innovation) the downward spiral will continue and there will be a dramatic fall in the PC video game industry. I sincerely hope that the industry falls and reforms itself in a revolutionary way because there is far too much crap out there.

[sickboy 13]

To my opinion the AI Has indeed improved a lot...

Pre 1.05 we of coarse had the broken AI on dedicated servers, this is what many ppl complained about of coarse. Since v1.05 we are having a hard time finishing missions and have seen AI doing tremendous things..

I think the biggest complaints are about things like:

- Shooting a guy who is standing next to another guy. The other guy doesn't react in some/many cases. (Even if it is silenced, they should be able to notice that a friendly just died, maybe not right away but after watching a little around the dead friendly must be noticed)

- AI-Paths taken wrong or driving against obstacles or simply crashing choppers inside trees etc.

Seeying things like that usually quite fast receives the Remarks: G ... stupid AI!

[wamingo 1]

The only part of the ai that, in my opinion, makes it look inorderly daft is when they run down a street getting shot from around a corner 1 by 1 and they just keep coming. They need to change objectives, take another route, anything but running down the same street. This has been reported many times already though.

[Tracer 0]

What's forgotten is that OFP broke the mould regards AI.

There's no other title that has dared attempt to emulate an AI battlefield -BF et al is a bloody disaster regarding SP AI!

It's easier to chuck out titles like, Americas Army and WWIIO and let the humans do all the hard work and not give a damn about any form of SP AI.

There isn't a game out there that has given us miles of open terrain and decent AI that can flank you or hide from you -period!

Even your own AI soldiers respond almost 'human like' to their own particular situation -grenades,203,RPG etc. Without you directing them.

Now that's clever!!

I think folks have become quite complacent to computer gaming of late =read: spoilt!

I can count only several titles that made an impact like OFP.

Far Cry

SWAT3

Just jump out at me with incredible AI.

FEAR was good, but again enclosed and heavily scripted.

BIOSHOCK has, supposedly, got clever AI -well i've got it pre-ordered so we'll see.

Point is, hardly any game out there, FPS, has any real quality open playing fields like ArmA or OFP. It's all enclosed Doomesque levels otherwise.

BIS are hardly being challenged?

Maybe they will develope a new 'brain' for their baby in the future? The foundation is already there.

[CG Man 0]

I'm sure lots of us complainers are amazed by OFP and ArmA I've been providing sounds effects for modders as I'm very much into ArmA but it could of been much more

I read an interview with BI  where they were asked whats been added to the AI they replied the AI in Ofp was already very advanced and didn't need improving but we made the Ai a bit unpredictable as a bonus.

Now the AI was what sold OFP in the first place thats what made it so better than other games so it should of had more than just a few tweaks for a sequil.

The Island in Arma is perfect amazing but still silly things like heicopters crashing into one another troops shooting stood up and clumping together when under fire. Boats not emptying troops onto beaches , troops dropping rifles in the water. AT guns not fireing , jets not attacking, rifle men using up all their ammo against enemy static weapons and ignoring enemy troops or other enemy that are reported.

BI have had years of practice programming AI since OFP you telling me they did no programming then took it up again when they started ArmA  a year ago.

I'm not giving a proper review of ArmA till it's finnished without complaints BI can't fix it. I will like it when it works and hasn't got bugs on everything that moves.

[phunkmaz 3]

For the next gen. i think BIS should more focus on the sound-engine. At the moment we have only 1 engine sound for vehicles which make it impossible to design realistic sound i.e. for gas turbine driven tanks. I wish they could implement layered sounds so we can do more loops for various rpm-ranges.

[Col. Faulkner 0]

A "combat simulation" would be a great project in AI research.

The knowledge space is rather strictly delimited and most of

the ontological vocabulary is reasonably straightforward. I

wish I'd thought about it when I was doing my Masters in

Artificial Intelligence (and not the "machine learning" crappo

I actually did instead ). I often wonder why games

rarely do it very well. If thicko 16 year old junior squaddies

can do it then surely a smart program can do it too.

[Scrub 0]

You're right, AI should be a priority.

But you can't deny that the AI has been improved since OFP. Taking cover, flanking etc. It could be better of course, but creating a truly intelligent AI isn't exactly easy.

And it can also be quite CPU intensive. If they put in some super AI the game might run even more slowly that it sometimes does now. And we don't want that after all. It would be nice to see though. Imagine being stalked by the AI through buildings and over rooftops. Or driving through a town and have a squad commandeer a vehicle and give chase!

EDIT: In reference to the AI as mentioned in this thread, I have two examples of irregularity that happened during the same mission last night. I was a Sniper NW of Cayo on the Air Cavalry co-op map. I had killed a handful of soldiers guarding the tanks and then a BMP turned up. Both the driver and gunner were unbuttoned so I took a shot at the gunner. I took him out with my first shot and the driver buttoned up. One RPG later and he was toast. About 10-15 minutes later another BMP rolled up with all 3 unbuttoned. It was a lot closed than the first and I misjudged my shots and missed 3 times, once hitting the vehicle body and the other two hitting the hatches. But they didnt even twitch. I then sniped all 3 in succession and they just sat there and died!! We earned a vehicle for our troubles but it was a lame way to get it.

Do you know, or can you find out what the skill level was set at for the BMPs? And also if they were 'safe' or 'combat'?

I'd be interested, as I tried a few times from cover ~200m, hit the hull twice.. and got my ass handed to me 23mm at a time.

[benreeper 0]

Marek don't read anything in the "General" section anymore it's just too depressing. People making sweeping generalizations and unfair comparison's.

I had no hand in creating this great game (I wish I had) but it still disheartens me to read what's posted here. You cannot even mention AI and other games: that's a joke. Most other games that have descent unscripted AI do not have AI in MP do they. Those games only have to deal with one player entity and viewpoint. Much easier to do.

Sigh... Call me a fanboy (or whatever) but I think that there should be a certain level of fairness in all of this.

--Ben

[madrussian 347]

OFP/ArmA AI remains one of a kind, the king of the hill (with warts and all), and the reason can be summed up into a single statement:

The AI treats the other AI just as they do the human player (or players).

Look at other games:

Far cry - great ai, but the experience is centered on YOU... you get more health than the enemy, plus, no friendlies! (therefore, no comparison! OFP wins)

Brothers in Arms - ai seems ok, but once again the experience is centered around you.  Again, you can take a beating, they can't.  Here you do get a friendly squad (vs. a horde of enemy), but your ability to command you own men differs from the enemy's ability to command its men. (once again, no comparison! OFP wins)

The list goes on and on, in each case with other games the experience is centered around YOU the player (and your squad if app).

Indeed, OFP broke this mold (followed by ArmA).  With this system we can freely exchange humans for AI.  To me, that makes all the difference.

Just wondering:

Battlefield - Somebody fill me in on the current state?  I haven't played since 1942.  IIRC, at that time you could not mix ai and humans freely.  Can you do that now?  Not that it matters... arcade shooter with hard-coded respawning vehicles and all.

EDIT

I'll add this:

Not I'm not saying ArmA AI is perfect, but think about it! Besides the fact BIS is cranking out fixes in all areas of the game (including ai), they've given us the ability to code our own AI at a very low level via FSM files.

[Dwarden 1125]

IMHO it's AI and physics ....

but physics demand on resources is even higher

(beyond physics you increase load on graphics and AI resources)

effectively game with full scale physics and excelent dynamic AI could need 4 to 16 times computing power of game with "cut off" version of them

[Col. Faulkner 0]

Maybe BIS should  do some in-depth market research when

planning their next endeavour. What do the majority of the

target market actually prefer? A shame though that it has to

boil down to "Good graphics. Good AI. Pick one"

One thing that would make a huge difference is the addition

of a better "morale" system for the AI - tabletop wargames

have dealt with this in great detail ever since "Kriegsspiel" in

the 19th century. One or two basic battle drills would be

good too so you can direct impromptu attacks and snap

ambushes with an AI squad without having to micromanage

your men. The battles tend to degenerate very quickly

into "gunfight at the OK corrall"

For these reasons (and others) I can't ever see the ArmA

men as real people or the game as a very deep simulation of

a battlefield - to me the men are just the fearless toy soldiers

of my childhood digitised into my PC (I also have less

compunction about "killing" them that way too). I have high

hopes for the new AI editing features though.

[Scrub 0]

One or two basic battle drills would be

good too so you can direct impromptu attacks and snap

ambushes with an AI squad without having to micromanage

your men.

HOLY CRAP!! (very intelligent, I know)

We can do this sooo much easier now. Between scripting and the FSM. VERY good idea.

*Goes looking for the FSM editor*

[Danbri 0]

I dont have anything important to add regarding the topic, but I do like reading these positive discussions (especially the last couple of posts).

I´m far from a programmer but even i understand how difficult it has to be to create an really functional and realistic AI in a game of this size and complextivity (dont know if that is an english word).

[dmarkwick 261]

Maybe BIS should do some in-depth market research when

planning their next endeavour. What do the majority of the

target market actually prefer?

I'm naturally against market research of this nature, I can't help the feeling that if the target market got what they asked for they would like it less, or would bitch about how it's not exactly precisely how they imagined it or something.

I've seen what happens when well-meaning developers involve their target audience via forums etc in their development process, it's shameful. (I'm thinking specifically of Wayward Design.)

This sort of venture is best left to guys behind closed doors IMO, guys who have a clue anyway. Ruby Wax said it well:

"Give the public what they want and they'll drag you down with them."

[horrgakx 1]

A shame though that it has to

boil down to "Good graphics. Good AI. Pick one"

I completely agree. AI shouldn't be a compromise. I have no experience in creating games unfortunately but it is SO important, bad AI can spoil an otherwise excellent game.

I think ArmA needs perciverence to get used to its quirks. Maybe that's what I'm saying by starting this thread...

Dave

[Dark_vityaz 0]

You're right, AI should be a priority.

But you can't deny that the AI has been improved since OFP. Taking cover, flanking etc. It could be better of course, but creating a truly intelligent AI isn't exactly easy.

Of course, but not only Al. Does anybody like when at high speed you cut into the wall and your car still work with a little scratch.No details fall off. And there are a lot of examples. So,physic should be improved.

[DaveG 0]

I doubt that current technology is sufficient to create the level of AI some people seem to expect from this game. IMO the game features some of the best AI in any game. Yeah the AI do make silly mistakes, but I think the nature of this game makes it more obivious; plus I don't think it's possible to create totally elievable AI at the moment.

[Bingo 0]

To say that "AI requires improvement" above "Eye candy" isn't the half of it.

Realistic-behaviour increases our enjoyment and perception of the game.

I think the word that we're looking for is "playablity", a tome I've long championed and that is severly lacking these days (present title excluded).

AI is a part of the gameplay... The graphics another...

[The Kentucky Kid 0]

AI is much much more complicated than graphics. With very limited resources (as in money) it's even harder. It would be nice if AI would increase at the same speed of graphics, but that's not going to happen.