Please fix the AI

[fabrizio_t 58]

When OFP was released in 2002 i fell in love with it - it had an unsurpassed and different feeling that i enjoyed for a very long time.

That said there were many areas in which OFP just fell short:

the one that  mostly bugged me was AI:

there were issue with patfhinding, with units LOS, problems with AI CQB,  vehicles not engaging enemies, units engaging enemy in suicidal ways, hardly any use of cover by AI  ...

These are exactly the same problems still present in AA ... in 2007. That makes me wonder about how much time has been dedicated to these fundamental aspects during development.

Is AA devoted to tactical simulation and particularly to infantry battleground tactics ? If so please fix the AI and make of AA the game that should have been.

Thank you, from a OFP fan since 2002.

EDIT:

Test case showing the LOS bug, related to unit distance and movement:

TEST CASE 4 - smoking gun reloaded - ZIP file

Browse this thread for more details.

EDIT2: CAN ANYBODY OWNING v1.04 TELL IF THIS ISSUE STILL EXISTS?

[tj72 0]

Can we have some examples specifically? I remember OFP but just for the record what are maybe the top three enhancements needed?

Say you walk into a town with your squad and encounter enemy group down the street. What is the game doing now? What should the AI be doing different in this situation in your opinion?

Im interested because we may be looking to user made scripts to tighten up all these alleged "issues". Besides BIS might have more core issues to deal with first that are of higher priority than AI tweaks or fixes.

[NZXSHADOWS 0]

Ha, Well if you an your AI buddies was in a town an they ran up on some OPFor. Then i would think I will tell my AI buddys to take cover an engage at will.Cant you do this?

[tj72 0]

In my view if you order that then the Squad should square up to the location enemy is firing from and be able to use doorways and buildings and all other objects as cover in a smart way. Then they are able to pop out and take a few shots and return to their position of cover. Then as leader you can tell certain units to cover the back/flanks and they face the proper direction without checking compass and face direction NE stuff if possible.

[fabrizio_t 58]

Quote[/b] ]Can we have some examples specifically? I remember OFP but just for the record what are maybe the top three enhancements needed?

Say you walk into a town with your squad and encounter enemy group down the street. What is the game doing now? What should the AI be doing different in this situation in your opinion?

Im interested because we may be looking to user made scripts to tighten up all these alleged "issues". Besides BIS might have more core issues to deal with first that are of higher priority than AI tweaks or fixes.

You're welcome,

in the case your squad is walking is way through a city and enemy opposition is encountered the game behaves this way:

1) Quite often enemy is spotted on straight roads only when distance is just a few dozen of meters, even with clear LOS. Sometimes an advancing team leader is killed by a second or third volley of bullets without even trying to open fire.

2) Once enemy is spotted formation is broken in a useless way: normally team leader sprints forward to engage, coming too close to enemy before opening fire. Other squad members don't provide any cover, normally crouch or go prone and wander around. Then they s-l-o-w-l-y reach the leader when he has been almost butchered.

3) Hardly any kind of suppression fire is given. Squad does not spread correctly to engage nor open fire at once on the enemy. Usually one or two men at maxiumum open fire ath the same time.

4) No cover is used by AI.  They walk back and forth occasionally opening fire, that's all.

5) In the case a team leader orders a unit to engage some enemy soldier, that unit normally rushes into his target ignoring enemy fire and sprinting till point-blank range, usually being killed at half his way.

6) AI units won't open fire while moving, even at point blank.

As you can notice, plenty of improvements have to be done ... not a matter of the top three.

[NeMeSiS 11]

What difficulty level are you playing on?

[fabrizio_t 58]

I'm playing veteran.

I have fiddled much whith custom difficulty sliders, but the only difference i have seen when raising the AI units skill is the precision: they're still dumb, but with high skills they take deadly shots.

[NeMeSiS 11]

With higher skill levels (im playing on 0.85) they send more men towards the enemy, shoot better+more often and react faster.

IMO the only problem with the current AI is that the pathfinding is far from perfect, it works, but thats about it.

They do take cover, but not alot but IMO that doesnt really matter. The AI takes cover in GRAW but thats also what made that game boring: Once they were behind cover they returned some shots and were more or less waiting to be killed, while in ArmA the AI is much more agressive and comes to hunt you

[tj72 0]

I understand theres more than three issues but I was wondering what you thought were the TOP three of all of them. Is the numbered items you listed in order or priority or off the top of your head?

Thanks

[fabrizio_t 58]

A simple example of AA AI inconsistencies: the LOS issue.

Look here: >fixed size

These 2 units can't spot each other: they both stare at the opponent, LOS is clear and distance is around 70 meters.

They just can't see. Something basic is wrong here ...

[fabrizio_t 58]

I understand theres more than three issues but I was wondering what you thought were the TOP three of all of them. Is the numbered items you listed in order or priority or off the top of your head?

Thanks

Here they are:

1) LOS issues should be sorted. This is the bare minimum! Units should be able to spot enemy from the right range.

2) Units should look for cover and use it properly

3) suppressive fire should be provided. Suppressive fire should have priority on ANY ENGAGEMENT ATTEMPT.

Let me add:

4) units should open fire from longer range in towns and SHOULD NOT run blindly into targets.

I hope these points make sense ...

[Guest]

Wow ...not too realistic

Seriously: Makes me wonder what this game would be like if it were developed competently.

[Zombie_Mod 0]

Wow ...not too realistic

Seriously: Makes me wonder what this game would be like if it were developed competently.

I would expect this statement to gather flames and people say "such smart AI is not possible with current hardware" but....

I've just come from a game of R6 Vegas and it totally kicks ArmAs ass in AI, graphics and sound. Yeah, I know it's a kiddies game but can you call me a kid at the age of 34? I've seen more games than most of ya

The troops take cover pretty well and the physics are amazing - you can blow everything up, shoot bricks off stacks etc. Yes, it needs a beefy gfx card and processor, and yes you are fighting in confined spaces but then we all had that issue with Half Life 2 and no-one mocked that game.

I love ofp but that was 6 years ago when my expectations were lower than they are now. Now, I just... can't love ArmA. Kiddies who want to flame - watch out, I bite.

I keep thinking there are so many more possibilities that have gone amiss, and that ArmA is just a tweaked OFP with the BAS stuff plugged on. Just wait til the UK media get their hands on this game for review, I shudder to think what they will say. PCZone is notorious for harsh reviews

[benreeper 0]

No flame. I read it, I disagree but no flame. Played R6 Vegas. Fun for an hour but has no lasting affect. IMHO not in the same universe as OFP let alone ArmA, even it's current state.

--Ben

[NeMeSiS 11]

I've just come from a game of R6 Vegas and it totally kicks ArmAs ass in AI, graphics and sound.

Well you answered it yourself, its in small, confined areas

The only thing the AI does better in that game is taking cover, but they lack everything else, id rather have the ArmA AI which is capable of making at least some tactical decisions, then AI that knows how to take cover properly and dont know how to do anything else (properly working in a group, sending people towards the enemy, retreating, etc)

EDIT: Oh, and i mocked HL2 for its small, linear maps

[simulacra 0]

Why should confined areas AI be special?

The AI in vegas recognises cover, and they hunker down behind it, the AI in arma is TOO general, I wouldn't mind seeingthat objects in game are given cover values of which the ai recognises and then uses.

For instance, why lie in an open street when there's a wall he can lie or kneel behind?

Or why not have the ai move from cover to cover such as corners of buildings, that doesnt mean that the AI will knock over tables for cover or leap over stuff like in fear.

Such behaviour is scripted for effect only and is not really a part of any AI.

[froggyluv 2135]

Agreed. I've never been in a firefight, but all of the miltary footage I've seen are of guys shooting from peeking around a wall, side of a car etc... I was really hoping this would have been priority #1 for this game as that is realism.

[5cent_at_NY 0]

I'm glad that people in this community getting realize the most important matter FINALLY.

Talking about "AI matter" has been squashed by some blind BIS lover. They always like "this is not an arcade game like BF2 or CSS, kid" or "if you don't like this way, then leave it". They don' even know why people like us talkin about AI's problems. We just wanna play REALISTIC combat simulator and BIS is our last hope. Because OFP had potential to be more realistic and many great addon creator proved it (like WGL). Yes, ArmA is a good game. But it's far from the BIS's ads "The Ultimate Combat Simulation".

There's no tactical things in ArmA. You just run -duck- & gun. If you encountered enemy in urban area, you can just hide in a building and pick them one by one. Friendly AI run into same open area where his buddy killed... it's just same FPS game like Delta Force or Spec Ops.

I mean i hate people in this community dissin' other game like "that arcade $hit made for kids. we grown men play ArmA!". The game like BF2 and ArmA both got good point. But IT'S JUST GAME. No "realistic" element in both games. However, ArmA has potential to be "realistic" than BF2 ones. That's why we "bitchn" about ArmA's AI.

Anyway, plz keep talkin, guys. And let's hope BIS will make AI that amaze us again, at least in Game2.

Oh BTW, I realized this is my first post in 2007... Happy New Year All!!  

Here's some present for you guys who loves realistic combat game... bravely Canadian Forces troops doing their job in Afghan!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_S9P1kMNuM

looks like "shoot while runnin'" isn't "unrealistic" or "arcade game thing"...  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaC-w2dIxZc

and finally our heroes... Marines!!  

sorry it's almost kinda offtopic...

[ebud 18]

A simple example of AA AI inconsistencies: the LOS issue.

Look here: [im]http://www.storage01.net/Immagine.JPG[/img]>100kb

These 2 units can't spot each other: they both stare at the opponent, LOS is clear and distance is around 70 meters.

They just can't see. Something basic is wrong here ...

You do know that's caused by you setting the unit skill setting too low don't you?

Try it again with the skill settings at least at the 1/2 mark.

Then try it maxed.

Then try one maxed and one at 0.

The skill settings determine how quickly a unit recognizes and enemy and how quickly it reacts.

I replicated this, then very easily fixed this ai "bug" by jacking up the skill of them in the editor.

I'll agree that it looks rather silly with one vs one duels, but in large battles this more than works itself out by having AI squad and team leaders with greater skill designate targets for the lower skilled and lower ranked ai.

There is enough wrong with this game without people making shit up. This is a setting, not a bug. You could have at least tested it a few more times with various settings

[Abs_01 0]

Nobody's really brought up the point (not that I've seen, anyway) that the AI for those 'confined spaces' games are a lot easier to program than for a game that features a large open space. Sure, ArmA's AI needs some work...but to compare it to other games is more than a little unfair because it's just not the same thing.

Abs

[simulacra 0]

In what way is confined spaces easier to program than open? because they have large distances ahead of them?

Granted, I'm not a programmer and therefore not acquainted with the problems of AI programming even though I can imagine the difficulty of doing it.

But fact remains, would it be SO hard for the engine to have certain values added to objects.

Off the top of my mind I'm thinking about some like:

Material, penetration/decay values (probably already in arma) would it be safe to sit behind a brick wall when under fire, IRL not really, brick walls tend to absorb the round and throw debris on the opposite side.

Concealment, Would be a very low prioritised type of cover when under fire or when better cover is nearby.

Size, is it high enough to stand behind?, of which sides do you have los, would be defined by polies (see below)

Example, you have a simplistic house, ordinary it might consist of 2 or 4 triangles per side, but this time one side is 6 triangles, 2 large that forms the center part of a wall and 4 that are "corner" polies, the polygons would be called 'corner' or the like.

Lets say that the house is made up of brick, that material would have a penetration risk and/or decay value when shot at.

So when a soldier is ambushed he would instantly run and dive behind the closest corner and then return fire.

The enemy would fire away at the guy and after a set number of rounds the soldier-ai would recognize the high decay and move to the next corner and keep fighting from there, if that side is clear he would proceed the corner next in line.

Crossing the street to another corner could be an action that does not occur until another soldier-ai in his unit is already firing at the known enemy.

so, how about open areas? Same applies here but the ai "accepts" not having any cover if there is none, if there are bushes they use that, if there are rocks they use that.

In the event of scarse cover bt alot of soldiers there might be a list that let's some units have priority.

Anyway, I'm just spawning ideas...

[Maddmatt 1]

In what way is confined spaces easier to program than open? because they have large distances ahead of them?

Granted, I'm not a programmer and therefore not acquainted with the problems of AI programming even though I can imagine the difficulty of doing it.

It is easier because there are far less possibilities for the AI. What they do is largely pre-scripted in the game's level editor. They usually only get attacked from one direction. Paths for the AI to walk on are placed in the level editor and sometimes they will have multiple paths which they choose depending on circumstances.

Programming AI for games like Rainbow Six Vegas is completely different. Imagine if the mission editor had to define almost exactly what the AI would do in OFP or ArmA? How would you enjoy making your own skirmishes if you had to tell the AI EXACTLY what to do? The AI in ArmA has to make it's own paths dynamically unlike other games.

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

In what way is confined spaces easier to program than open? because they have large distances ahead of them?

Granted, I'm not a programmer and therefore not acquainted with the problems of AI programming even though I can imagine the difficulty of doing it.

It is easier because there are far less possibilities for the AI. What they do is largely pre-scripted in the game's level editor. They usually only get attacked from one direction. Paths for the AI to walk on are placed in the level editor and sometimes they will have multiple paths which they choose depending on circumstances.

Programming AI for games like Rainbow Six Vegas is completely different. Imagine if the mission editor had to define almost exactly what the AI would do in OFP or ArmA? How would you enjoy making your own skirmishes if you had to tell the AI EXACTLY what to do? The AI in ArmA has to make it's own paths dynamically unlike other games.

That is exactly why simulacras' idea will work. Keep it as simple as it is.

It's just a matter of enabling two more settings per object - Height and direction.

The AI will try and go to the cover more aggresively and is now able to figure out if it can get on it's knees and return fire. If the cover is too high, then it will go towards a corner and shoot from there.

It doesn't have to be more complicated than that. Of course it wont be like in RS: Vegas where almost every move is scripted to that particular mission, but doing it like this will add so much to the game without too much work.

I just hope it is possible to add information to objects, or withdraw already stored information per object from the engine?

I know it is possible to change the AI in ArmA now much more openly than in OFP.

Then maybe (in simple terms);

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">

If AIsoldier is_fired_upon==true then { \\if AI is fired upon

    If enemy_force > 35 then { \\If the enemy force is huge

           Find coverpositions > 1.9m \\ Find cover that is bigger than the soldier itself, because of the huge force

}

           If enemy_location == 0-45_degrees then {

               Choose _coverpositions where cover_direction > 0 AND _coverpositons < 45

}

           If enemy_location == 45-90_degrees then {

               Choose _coverpositions where cover_direction > 45 AND _coverpositons < 90

}

           If enemy_location == 90-135_degrees then {

               Choose _coverpositions where cover_direction > 90 AND _coverpositons < 135

}

.......

AIsoldier domove choose_neares_object in _coverpositions

AIsoldier facedir enemy_direction

[Potatomasher 0]

Then maybe (in simple terms);

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">

If AIsoldier is_fired_upon==true then { \\if AI is fired upon

If enemy_force > 35 then { \\If the enemy force is huge

Find coverpositions > 1.9m \\ Find cover that is bigger than the soldier itself, because of the huge force

}

If enemy_location == 0-45_degrees then {

Choose _coverpositions where cover_direction > 0 AND _coverpositons < 45

}

If enemy_location == 45-90_degrees then {

Choose _coverpositions where cover_direction > 45 AND _coverpositons < 90

}

If enemy_location == 90-135_degrees then {

Choose _coverpositions where cover_direction > 90 AND _coverpositons < 135

}

.......

AIsoldier domove choose_neares_object in _coverpositions

AIsoldier facedir enemy_direction

Now that would be one hell of piece of code in ArmA's engine.

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

lol