official complaint to BIS

[ebud 18]

I never said that ARMA is superior to OFP. In fact, I believe its inferior.

OMFG, what a post to make me laugh my ass off and start the day off right. I nearly spit out my coffee.

If you honestly believe that, then I can't see how any argument will sway you. The saying that you can't see for the forest for the trees fits well here, or it does for me. You cannot seem to just enjoy the game as it is and wait until it's patched before continuing your hatred of the games and your disdain for the nice people that worked on it and are now trying to fix it.

I've been reading a lot of your posts and I can't imagine why your still here when you really should have uninstalled the game, went back to OFP and left it at that. I honestly can't see you contributing anything useful here.

[dm 9]

Blah blah

Way to totally ignore the entire point of both of my posts. Seriously, good work on that one

Half your post wasn't addressed to me, and the other half didn't have much to say with anything I said. And not to mention at all, you came up with something false about what I said.

Ahh, posting at 6 am tends to make you easily confused. The post I was refering to was this one in one of your other ArmA/BI bashing threads. And in relation to that, no I didn't make up anything false, since most of your examples in that thread were graphics based.

For those of you who say that ARMA AI is better (which is not), go play the retaliation campaign for OFP, and see how the AI should be.

So you're basing the fact that the OFP AI is "better" than ArmA's on a heavily scripted USER MADE campaign? Yeah, nice one there. Retaliation doesnt "improve" the AI, it just scripts all the events to make them look awesome. If the same team put the same time and effort into Retaliation for ArmA, it would destroy your tiny, closed off mind....

JIP is useless if only few people play. Right now, only about 100 people are playing online. Which is pretty poor, even for being released in a few countries.

Mainly covered by other people, but oh noes! there arent enough people playing when you want to play, so that makes one of the best new "features" useless? Yeah, right.

And didn't OFP had terrain streaming?

Nope, it didnt.

And here's why ARMA isn't better than OFP out of the box.

Its called the campaign length and the campaign quality.

In quality, its a 2 out of 10 compared to Cold War Crisis.

So the MASSIVELY improved multiplayer features (what most people consider to be the key part of the game) are totally useless?

Because I don't see how AI has been improved, so please explain. There are a lot of videos out there showing the horrible AI. Why not make one to show how great the AI is then?

Because a lot of people (and especially the more vocal ones) like you are only interested in pointing out every tiny flaw in the game, and not enjoying what is for the most part a functional game.

The ArmA AI totally spanks OFP's, it works better as a team, it works better in vehicles, and with the ability to write our own FSM's we have TOTAL control over them. Sure they've got a few issues, but they are the same issues OFP had, and BI are working on improving them.

To finish, I think Ebud put it best - If I were you, I'd have uninstalled, taken the game back to the shop, and be happily enjoying my "superior" OFP. (Without annoying the crap out of everyone in the ArmA forums with my relentless bitching about how "bad" ArmA is )

[dob 0]

this topic is mad; lol

VS

[ebud 18]

You are correct and while I think blind fanboys are as bad as whiners, I can't see where constant complaining accomplishes anything. If you see a bug, post it where it needs to be. If you don't like something, uninstall it. I've bought several games that didn't live up to my expectations, but I bit the fecking bullet and played them or I uninstalled them if they were too bad. Bitching and moaning about the same things over and over and over is pointless and unimaginative. I've had the game almost 2 weeks and I love it. Some things I hate, but I can live with them for now and see no need to beat a dead horse by bitching and moaning about them. I didn't like a few things so I changed them myself while I wait. I got the game for the engine and it's potential, not to play silly ass CTF or TDM or even the campaign.

[deanosbeano 0]

this topic is mad; lol

VS

yup and to think the topics called official complaint to BIS.

never knew so many worked for bis its a wonder how this game wasnt completed(ish) in 6 months never mind 18 .

maybe there should be an official love for bis topic to compliment it ?

my 2cents i am lovin it and being a hypocrit comes naturaly .

[whisper 0]

Saying "ArmA is an improvement over OFP" is not saying "ArmA is perfect, best game ever, BI rules, blabla..."

It's simply opening the eyes on the benefits of the game, and trying to be constructive rather than negative.

In fact, I even around me advice to NOT buy the game yet and wait for corrective patches, if they come. Ofc the game in its current state has too much bugs and issues to be really enjoyable by the majority. Fanbois like myself did buy it, it's the price of being a fanboi So I keep saying to my non-OFP friends that they better wait a bit that either I find ways to have it working properly (if it's mainly a user issue, but I heavily doubt it) or BI to patch it to correct the most glaring issues (FM, MP bugs, performances and crash)

But, because of these issues, putting a ban on the game and completely disregarding the advancement made is not that smart.

Tbh the game is really playable as is. Buggy, but playable, atleast for me, and believe me I've had my share of performance issues and crashes.

[Stealth3 0]

Well if you read most of the posts where I talk about graphics, you should see that my opinion on it is that I don't care much about graphics (as most people here).

Just because I talked about graphics not being top of the line (because a lot of fans make it seem that way) doesn't mean graphics are that important to me.

Second, when I talked about the Retaliation, of course I knew that the AI was heavily scripted. But you guys completely missed the point. The point is that if a 3rd party team can come up with a way to make their AI act inteligent in a campaign, theres no excuse for BIS not doing the same in their "official" campaign.

It doesn't matter if somebody can come up with a way to script them and make them act super inteligent, as out of the box they are dumb.

For people saying the AI are "inteligent" please make a video and proove yourself, because I disagree.

Well that covers most of it, and yes I trully believe OFP was better. Here's a small comparison:

ARMA vs OFP

Campaign -Length-OFP

-Quality-OFP

Graphics-ARMA

Island-Size-ARMA

-Details-ARMA

Physics-Destructable buildings- OFP. I know it sounds wierd, but the way buildings fall (WTC syle) is very unrealistic and dumb.

-Destructable bridges- ARMA

-Flight dynamics-At the moment, OFP

-Player movement- OFP

-Vehicle dynamics- OFP

Engine- ARMA. But so far there are little things you can do with it that you can't in OFP in terms of gameplay.

-JIP- ARMA.

And why should redstorm say a statement as in my signature and get praised for it, and when somebody says that they think OFP is better, the whole forum jumps on them? Aren't you all being hypocrits when it comes to double standards?

[ebud 18]

Because reading your posts, no matter how truthful they may be, is about as much fun as reading Walker's posts in the politics and ME threads. Same shit different day.

Most people would agree with some of your points as well as myself to a certain extent. I only chimed in because it's getting really old hearing the same thing over and over. You have issues with Arma... we get it. So do most everyone, but most of your arguments are based on your opinions.

[Stealth3 0]

Sorry to hear that but no I don't have a problem with ARMA. The only reason I'm here talking about it is because I defend my views, and I like to debate.

Also because I like OFP.

Everything that I said is not based on my opinions alone, but other opinions that I read in a lot of other threads also.

[ebud 18]

Well, if all your really wanting is a debate, then we can just agree to disagree on certain aspects

[martinovic 0]

Quote[/b] ]Physics-Destructable buildings- OFP. I know it sounds wierd, but the way buildings fall (WTC syle) is very unrealistic and dumb.

Wow... If you like the drunken origami effect more then i fear you might be a bit biased here towards OFP.

[fer 21]

Can somebody lock this post, please? Or move it to O/T?

As much as I'm sure it tickles the boys (and girls?) at BIS to see you ladies pulling each others' hair out over them, this thread isn't about to win a prize for reasoned debate.

Get a room!

[Stealth3 0]

Well, we agree to disagree. So its all settled, I'm off now.

[ebud 18]

Well, we agree to disagree. So its all settled, I'm off now.

Wait, wait I was just kidding!

[MATRA 0]

Quote[/b] ]The point is that if a 3rd party team can come up with a way to make their AI act inteligent in a campaign, theres no excuse for BIS not doing the same in their "official" campaign.

Good point.

[evilnate 0]

Well if you read most of the posts where I talk about graphics, you should see that my opinion on it is that I don't care much about graphics (as most people here).  

Just because I talked about graphics not being top of the line (because a lot of fans make it seem that way) doesn't mean graphics are that important to me.

Second, when I talked about the Retaliation, of course I knew that the AI was heavily scripted.  But you guys completely missed the point.  The point is that if a 3rd party team can come up with a way to make their AI act inteligent in a campaign, theres no excuse for BIS not doing the same in their "official" campaign.  

It doesn't matter if somebody can come up with a way to script them and make them act super inteligent, as out of the box they are dumb.

For people saying the AI are "inteligent" please make a video and proove yourself, because I disagree.  

Well that covers most of it, and yes I trully believe OFP was better.  Here's a small comparison:

ARMA vs OFP

Campaign -Length-OFP

                      -Quality-OFP

Graphics-ARMA

Island-Size-ARMA

       -Details-ARMA

Physics-Destructable buildings- OFP.  I know it sounds wierd, but the way buildings fall (WTC syle) is very unrealistic and dumb.  

                  -Destructable bridges- ARMA

                  -Flight dynamics-At the moment, OFP

                  -Player movement- OFP

                  -Vehicle dynamics- OFP

Engine- ARMA.  But so far there are little things you can do with it that you can't in OFP in terms of gameplay.          

       -JIP- ARMA.

And why should redstorm say a statement as in my signature and get praised for it, and when somebody says that they think OFP is better, the whole forum jumps on them?  Aren't you all being hypocrits when it comes to double standards?

I used to think player movement felt clunky with my old amd system. Since I upgraded it's much much more "solid", and consistant feeling.

Old = AMD 64 4000

2GB PC3200

X1900XTX 512MB

New = Intel C2D E6600

2GB PC8500

2x X1900XTX CF

MO about this topic is that my only complaints to BIS is well, none. They had their reasons for releasing the game before all of the bugs were fixed but i'm pretty sure their working on that. in the meantime I am having LOADS of fun plaing arma and can't see myself having as much fun with OFP.

[dm 9]

Quote[/b] ]The point is that if a 3rd party team can come up with a way to make their AI act inteligent in a campaign, theres no excuse for BIS not doing the same in their "official" campaign.

Good point.

Bad point.

AI that relies heavily on in-mission scripting isnt really AI at all. For BI to do something like Retaliation (good as it was) would be taking a step backwards for them in terms of the game's sandbox abilities. Using scripted set-pieces to make the AI SEEM intelligent (the same way games like Call of Duty, Half Life and many others do) certainly means you have impressive AI for those set pieces, but when you move out of the corridors which those games operate in, your wonderful set-piece AI gets lost in the vast open landscape.

What we have with OFP and ArmA is a pretty dynamic, self-governing AI, which will follow waypoint types under thier own "influence" in order to create action, rather than being told exactly what to do every second of the mission.

Lable me as a fanboi if you will, but having been studying the programming aspect of game creation for the last 2 1/2 years at university, I can appreciate how much hard work and skill has gone into the creation of something like ArmA or OFP, and where its real strengths and weaknesses lie, rather than bash it for is graphics or so called "poor gameplay" (which having been playing it for a while now, appears to follow exactly the same mechanics as OFP, which is reasonable, since its based on OFP)

[Sgt_Eversmann 1]

a thing about the AI:

sometimes they seem to be stupid and stuff, but an hour ago I experienced a situation I would never have been even imagined before!!

I tested on Ramahdi...had some sabouteurs and snipers in the town. I shot one enemy, then I went jumped for cover and watched what the AI will do.

so, I thought the run around and stuff, but they don't did. The went to cover, and one saboteur was coming my way. then I looked around, and suddenly the saboteur went back the way he was coming from, but left two "presents" (satchel charges).

I just thought: huh?

then: OH OH

I ran away and seconds later -> BOOOOM

I just thought: bloody hell!

so what I'm trying to say is, there are more vids about the situations where the ai acts "stupid" then about situations what the ai really can and stuff like that.

so, nice one BIS

[frederf 0]

Quote[/b] ]The point is that if a 3rd party team can come up with a way to make their AI act inteligent in a campaign, theres no excuse for BIS not doing the same in their "official" campaign.

Good point.

Bad point.

AI that relies heavily on in-mission scripting isn't really AI at all.

Instead of having AI in a campaign that is script-assisted and free-thinking AI in sandbox... ArmA has free-thinking AI in both campaign and sandbox? How is that better? Surely, setting a precedent for assisted AI in the context of a known situation (like any decently made mission) and how to use that assistance for the desired effect in game is worthwhile? The idea of having units smart enough that they react properly without a layer of "help" sounds lovely in theory but is probably so far in advance of the current AI as to be inefficient use of energy.

The ArmA campaign itself is merely engine-demonstration material. I am confused when people talk about the campaign as if it mattered, as if it were missing anyone would notice. The darn thing isn't even completable past The Great Battle. The missions are ridiculous and buggy. In the infantry ones you're either alone vs an enemy (tank) platoon, are in a squad of which you will be the lone survivor, or is some kind of Tank/Helo killing spree.

AI is hard to do. ArmA AI is an improvement over OFP AI. Is there anyone here that would contend with these two statements?

I, for one, believe those two sentences wholeheartedly. Can the ArmA AI do human-smart actions and reactions? No. Should we have expected a bigger improvement in AI from OFP to ArmA? Arguably.

Dynamic building destruction. Is it hard to do in a video game? Yes. Is it better in ArmA than OFP? Well, the effect to the untrained eye is better (origami house was rather silly), but the ArmA destruction is not dynamic as far as I can tell in the sens that: hit points -> 0, animation plays, end result is the same every time. I don't know if OFP's method was the same way, but if OFP's method was truly dynamic, then (while appearing ugly) was superior in that aspect. Personally, the descructability of objects was a pleasant surprise to me and I find little fault with what they've done in ArmA (except when a building is split into two logical buildings, their hit points and destruction should be tied so you can't "WTC the 1' thick shop front" independently.

[MATRA 0]

Quote[/b] ]Bad point.

AI that relies heavily on in-mission scripting isnt really AI at all. For BI to do something like Retaliation (good as it was) would be taking a step backwards for them in terms of the game's sandbox abilities

You are right on what AI should be in a game like ArmA and OFP, but Stealth3 had a point on this "make their AI act inteligent in a campaign" , Campaign doesnt need super AI that knows how to move in the hole Island, its all about triggers, I dont like being in a mission where you have to kill all enemy's, and one or more of them run away and the trigger is never activated.

Campaign its all about gameplay and rhythm and if they only "Act smart" and things work, like they did in Retaliation, in my opinion gameplay wins.

In SP missions and Coop, I totally agree with you, " we have with OFP and ArmA is a pretty dynamic, self-governing AI, which will follow waypoint types under thier own "influence" in order to create action"

And YES, ArmA is far better then OFP, need some polish etc, but CWC campaign could be played till the end even in ver 1.00 like I did.

[Placebo 29]

Can somebody lock this post, please? Or move it to O/T?

As much as I'm sure it tickles the boys (and girls?) at BIS to see you ladies pulling each others' hair out over them, this thread isn't about to win a prize for reasoned debate.

Hush you, this is thread of the year material

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]had some sabouteurs and snipers in the town...snip

Don´t want to ruin your fun but they already did that in OFP

[Soldat32 0]

Well all this bitching about AI in ARMA,

Yes I do see improvements over OFP.But right now the AI's ability to spot you instantly no matter what you do and shoot bullets so accurately like hit you like guided missles is rediculous.ARMA needs serious tweaking before its actually enjoyable.

[Kevlar2007 1]

ARMA is all screwed up. I now have installed patch 1.02 and weird graphic errors are away and performance improved a bit but now I get new errors, now I get Crashes To Desktop randomly.

Why is this loading happening when you get out of map screen it is totaly annoying!?

This all reminds me more and more to BF2 where every patch introduced new errors so they never got it patched. I think we are getting the same situation with ARMA but hope that I am wrong.

I have German Version, and CTDs happen all in Multiplayer.

[craigsa 0]

Why is this loading happening when you get out of map screen it is totaly annoying!?

Got to agree - it so irritating.