Helicopters in AA

[Avimimus 0]

Well I don't know how choppers would handle in real life. I don't know if this new flight model for choppers is more realistic. But what I do know is that you can easily play the game with the current flight model.

I made a video showing how I use the choppers in this game. It's 6 minutes long and about 80 megs. It's 90% pure gameplay footage. That means (almost) no editing so this might be boring for some people.

http://www.uploading.com/files/1RU0YJWL/ChopperShow.rar.html

By the way, I got a pretty old PC so don't mind the crappy graphics.

I don't get any problems when flying. Maybe it's because I don't fly in a certain way that makes the chopper buggy. If that's the case, please tell me so I can see for myself why the flight model is so screwed up.

I haven't tried using a joystick yet so that's what I'm going to do right now... After clicking "Add Reply"...

I watched your movie! It shouldn't take 5 minutes to engage 4 armoured targets. You've just illustrated why Helos are so bad in ArmA. In OFP I could engage 8 or more targets in less that 30 seconds with the Apache. And that's about right. The Hellfire can be fired off at presets simultaneously (Which you could emulate quite well with the <tab> key).

You can't "popup" as is the usual method of engagement for helos because the flight model is so awful combined with the buggy targeting.

Truth be known, an AH-1Z would never overfly a Shilka, thats almost certain death provided the gunner isn't Stevie Wonder. Im not dissing you in anyway because given the current Helo situation, I probably couldn't have done it much better.

My point is that in OFP you could employ proper attack helo tactics and now you cant. Well at least I can't and most people seem to agree. I have tried that "Alligator" mission about 20 x now and it is nearly impossible to hold the Helo steady. The gun camera in the Kamov is ENTIRELY useless as it cannot be slewed independantly of the helos main controls.

Im not suggesting we try to incorporate a flight sim here. I just would have preferred it if it had been left alone. As the old addage says, "If it aint broke, dont fix it".

E

Of course in real life engagment times are longer if you use guided weapons (simply due to flight times). Given the short ranges it might not be that bad a things to have a fairly slow engagment rate. Real life engagement times are probably somewhere in between the two (eg. 20 seconds per target).

Pop-up tactics seem to be falling out of favour, their main benefits appear to be ability to fire at maximum range and more time for the crew to aquire the targets. There are some indications that firing "on the move" at very low altitude, often with the help of a spotter, may be preferable.

Flying outside of cover within 2-3km of a Shilka is certain death within 15 seconds of being spotted.

Problems with modeling Kamov mounted systems are almost universal to all sims.

[Journeyman 0]

BTW: Why the f* BIS implemented a Harrier WITHOUT implementing its major function? I don't get that.

I've heard a few times already that BIS is planning on implementing VTOL for the Harrier in an update/patch. I'm hoping that they will improve the flight model for choppers too in said patch! Some word from BIS here wouldn't go a miss ATM!  

[BlackAlpha 10]

Well I tried the Alligator mission. This time I had flown a lot more in choppers so I had more experience with choppers in general. And I have to say that the Kamov is almost better then a Cobra. The big drawback is that you can't spot targets while looking around in the cockpot like in the Cobra. So you are forced to use tab or the very hard to use (but not impossible) missle view.

And I don't see what's so hard about the Alligator mission. It's much easier in the Kamov to use the rockets. The kamov seems to be more stable so it's easier to aim.

And how the hell can you aim with the machineguns on the Kamov? Is it possible?

So the Cobra is better if you use missles because it's easier to spot things in the distance, which makes the popup tactic easier. The Kamov is better if you use rockets or engage stuff at closer ranges because it's more stable but it's hard to spot things at a distance.

I don't see why some people think it's impossible to use the popup tactic. Yeah, you can only do it at like less then 2 KM else you can't see the target on the radar but it's still possible.

Some people say hoovering yourself is impossible. Well it takes a lot of practice but it's certainly possible. I can't make a perfect dead stop, that's really hard but I know that it's possible to hoover without using auto-hoover because I've done it myself.

Same thing for flying low below treetop level. It's certainly possible if you stay below the 150 KM/h. If you want max manoeuvrability (which decreases your chances of flying against a tree), you must stay below 100.

[Universel 0]

Btw did I tell you that the new patch completely wrecked armor values of AH vs Kamov?

Before, one Strela killed a AH, and 2-3 a Kamov.

In v1.01, one Strela gets down a Kamov but now AH survives to it...

[Mr_Tea 0]

Someone use joystick to control helicopter or airplane?

Can you confirm if its better this way or same crappy as mouse/keyboard?

It`s a bit better with Joystick, but still not good.

My Saitek X52 should be precise enough.

[Barely-injured 0]

Btw did I tell you that the new patch completely wrecked armor values of AH vs Kamov?

Before, one Strela killed a AH, and 2-3 a Kamov.

In v1.01, one Strela gets down a Kamov but now AH survives to it...

Are you sure it is because of the patch??

The change log doesnt mention anything about choppers or flight models it was a patch mainly aimed at improving preformance.

[irl-calibre 0]

TBH I was expecting the Helos to be far more complex than they have turned out to be in the game, i've found it a bit of a let down..

[BlackAlpha 10]

Well all vehicles are unrealistic. None of them handle like they would in real life. Now they just made the choppers "a bit" more advanced because they were cheap and too powerfull in OFP. They still are powerfull, it just takes more skill to use them.

Anyone interested in a movie about me playing the Alligator mission (The singleplayer mission with the Kamov)? No? I'll make one anyway.

[GaX 0]

Well all vehicles are unrealistic. None of them handle like they would in real life. Now they just made the choppers "a bit" more advanced because they were cheap and too powerfull in OFP. They still are powerfull, it just takes more skill to use them.

Anyone interested in a movie about me playing the Alligator mission (The singleplayer mission with the Kamov)? No? I'll make one anyway.  

Thanks

Remember to use manual fire and ffar...

A movie of AH1 SP mission with manual fire should be great too..

[colligpip 0]

That would be awesome... ly useless, just like the trigger finger animation. Now if the MFDs and other displays could actually serve some purpose such as radar, RWR, AGM guidance, HSD and such, that would be pretty darn nice.

sorry by 3d clickable cockpit i mean cockpit with fully functioning switches that you can press and they all work as they should.

[BlackAlpha 10]

The problem with that is that it's a pain in the ass to click on them. It's already hard enough to fly without having to use the mouse to click on a button in the cockpit which takes time and a lot concentration (Yes really! ).

You have to switch your view. Find the button. Grab the mouse. Move the mouse over the button. Click on it. Quickly check the surrounded to see what happend while you were clicking on the button. Check if the chopper is still going the right way.

So it's really too much. This is why we need keyboards for that kind of stuff. Plus it's impossible if you use the mouse to fly, like me. Also impossible if you need 2 hands at that moment. What can happen is that you release the joystick/keyboard and grab the mouse. You risk crashing but atleast you can click on that button in the cockpit.

Movie will be up tomorow. I need to render it, which is going to take 2 hours. Then upload it, which is going to take another hour. So I'll do it over night.

[xnodunitx 0]

Of course the problem of it being keyboard buttons would be the keyboard taken up for who knows what..then again I suppose some buttons are unused. It has its advantages and disadvantages but tieing animations to the action menu would be because-

When you scroll through the menu,you know what a certain thing will do when that button is pressed,its a bit more complicated yes but would open avenues to more than just helicopters.

It would be more formiddable as you could have more animations and more things to do rather than having "this button do only this" thing.

[colligpip 0]

The problem with that is that it's a pain in the ass to click on them. It's already hard enough to fly without having to use the mouse to click on a button in the cockpit which takes time and a lot concentration (Yes really! ).

works fine in Falcon 4, although it would be a bit harder in a heli but there is auto pilot hover hold and joystick buttons.

[funnyguy1 0]

Quote[/b] ] It makes larger circles when attacking the target

Tested that in editor with armored unit. Kamov came at me as I was straight in it´s flightpath and fired. I moved on about 700 m´s and it took the helo 7 circles until it was able to target me again. I was just sitting there, not moving or such. Helos just can´t turn fast anymore. It´s impossible, for players and AI. Needless to say that this is not reflecting reality.

Well, of course It's a drawback when It comes to certain manoeuvres, I've just noticed that It forces more realistic attack runs (theoretically), sadly, It's done by limiting the ability to control the helo (thus limiting the player), not changing the AI...

Could you test the engagement range of AI controlled heli? ( at max skills)

[BlackAlpha 10]

Here's my movie:

http://www.uploading.com/files....mv.html

I included some oldschool music.

Nothing wrong with choppers in my opinion. I even could've done much better then that. That was my second go. The first time I did much better but I accidently crashed when flying back to base... So I had to start over.

I tried to use only rockets but for some reason the Abrams didn't want to blow up so I was forced to fire a missle at it.

Now I also know the exact reason why the missle view is useless. Missle view is basically just a very large zoom on where you are aiming. The problem is that it's impossible to aim because it's not possible to make small adjustments to your aim. This is very easy to notice when zooming in with the missle view. You CAN fly properly when using the missle view, it's just impossible to aim.

Colligpip, it is impossible if you are not using hover mode. I'm pretty sure that you will only use hovermode maybe 50% of the time (probably less) you are flying (I never use it myself though). And that means that the other 50% of the time, you will be screwed if you try to grab the mouse because you might crash when doing so.

[Mr_Tea 0]

The proof of the bad heli handling values, are the ingame situations where AI pilots fly around with the cobra.

Haven`t seen until now how the AI handles the MH-6, but that can`t be better.

The little "preview video" from the mission, where you have to destroy the convoy with the cobra, is the best example for the problems of the flightmodel.

What is my joystick good for, when the AI can`t handle the choppers propperly.

[GaX 0]

Here's my movie:

http://www.uploading.com/files....mv.html

I included some oldschool music.

Nothing wrong with choppers in my opinion. I even could've done much better then that. That was my second go. The first time I did much better but I accidently crashed when flying back to base... So I had to start over.

I tried to use only rockets but for some reason the Abrams didn't want to blow up so I was forced to fire a missle at it.

Now I also know the exact reason why the missle view is useless. Missle view is basically just a very large zoom on where you are aiming. The problem is that it's impossible to aim because it's not possible to make small adjustments to your aim. This is very easy to notice when zooming in with the missle view. You CAN fly properly when using the missle view, it's just impossible to aim.

Colligpip, it is impossible if you are not using hover mode. I'm pretty sure that you will only use hovermode maybe 50% of the time (probably less) you are flying (I never use it myself though). And that means that the other 50% of the time, you will be screwed if you try to grab the mouse because you might crash when doing so.

Nothing wrong with choppers??

You destroyed Urals cause even a close FFAR destroy them (you don't need a direct hit)...infact you need only few machinegun shot to destroy them...

(Look at minute 2:19 of your movie)

AND....the fact that you needed guided missiles to destroy the last 2 tanks (anyway they was all standing and all grouped) show how rough is the flight model...

Anyway u got a nice flying....

If u can...should be nice to see a manul fire on a moving armored convoy (make a movie of AH1 sp mission)

and i agree with Mr_Tea:

even AI can't drive chopper properly...Often they fly arounds and take too much time to engage an armoured or you can see them just crash when flying LOL

[lee_h._oswald 0]

Today was helicopter testing time for me.

Here are my thoughts about it:

Well, there is something wrong. To be more precise, there a two major things wrong.

---

But first, if you are flying with mouse+keyboard you are on the "lucky" side. Because you have only one major bug.

It's the "rudder" not working at higher speeds, so you can't fly the helicopter precisely enough to get it only a bit left or right to attack the enemy with unguided weapons like mg or ffar's.

You have to move sideways ( <- or -> ) like you would do with a plane.  

Please give us back the rudder at higher speeds.

Everything else can be configured in the options menu, but be careful because you can configure:

- Rudder left/right

- move sideways left/right

and:

- move sideways left/right + Rudder left/right <-?!

Last option makes helicopter steering with mouse pure horror for me.

---

Ok, let's take the joystick you can fly with every helicopter- and plane-OFP-Addon available like Chuck Yeager!

Same problem with the rudder here... Higher speeds -> rudder not working -> no chance to target precisely with unguided weapons.

But there is another bug, at least for me. Pressing the joystick forward or back makes the helicopter reacting like a crazy horse running wild.

The helicopter(plane) reacts wayyyyyyy too sensitively to control inputs.

This is not releated to the stick or the calibration or the software(e.g. logitech wingman profiler).

It's an ArmA problem or an ArmA-helicopter-config problem, because in OFP the stick works fine.

---

Those two bugs are the major problems for me to fly a helicopter and plane(only tested the camel so far) in Armed Assault.

I'm sure there will be some sort of fix in the near future or some usermade addons which are better, but BIS should put this on the high priority list because we all loved flying choppers and planes in OFP and maybe some day in ArmA too.

MfG Lee

[dan9of9 0]

im finding the heli's far to sensative in this,

ofp was much smoother.

what gives with all this leaning in the choppers? it seems to turn on its side rather than turning. :/

[BoA 0]

Quote: Can we shot down heli with HMG fire ?

If I have enough ammo, I can let it down with a pistol.

[BlackAlpha 10]

Which is why I said, it's better when you use a mouse. The mouse is more accurate and less sensative. But yeah, if you use a joystick, it is kinda messed up.

I might've mist in my movie because I'm still new to shooting with rockets (I got the job done though) but my point is that just because you guys can't fly does not mean that it's impossible. I've clearly shown you guys that the choppers can be manouvrable. I've only played the game for a couple of days so I'm still a noob. Maybe in a couple of more days I'll be able to do everything perfectly in a chopper.

I'm sure that once the game comes out in more countries and a lot more people start playing it, I won't be the only one who thinks that it's not that hard to use a chopper.

About the rudder thing, I heard that when planes go above a certain speed the rudder won't work anymore and it might even crash the plane. Could it be the same for choppers? This would explain why they made the rudder like this.

[Mr_Tea 0]

Even if whe learn to fly this messed up flightmodel, the AI isn`t capable to fly the heli`s.

Something must be changed, maybe a bit of the flightmodel and another bit of the "pilot AI".

It`s the same for the harriers.

The landing autopilot doesn`t work, but it should.

[Shadow NX 1]

I found some more time to play ArmA today, beat a few SP missions and then i was thinking lets try the Cobra mission... its basicly only a remake of the old OFP mission where you had to fly to the convoi wreck it with some guided missiles and back to base for a cold one...

Well i tried the mission several times and possibly im completely stupid but.

- The helicopters are totally twitchy and react to every movement like theyre on speed.

- I hate the fact that i only got a cursor when im commander because if im not i cant mark targets for my gunner without aiming directly at them...

- Somehow i can fire all my guided missiles at one tank and often its still not destroyed, i guess cause the rockets hit everywhere but not where i aimed

- Gunner, awesome... he fires at whatever he likes not what i order him and doesnt even hit a haybarn...

Along with the Mission where you ambush the tank convoi ( as saboteur ) this really made me go red faces and wish for another big patch.

ArmA offers so many good things but there are so many things that were great in OFP and were for some completely unknown reason taken out...

[BlackAlpha 10]

Well the AI had always been pretty bad. In all games by the way, not just this one. They are bad drivers, they are bad pilots, they are bad black ops, they are bad at everything except shooting stuff or when they are heavily scripted. However before they can shoot they must do something right first. Like they must first fly in the right way or they must not run trough that open field to "flank" the enemy or they must look in the right direction instead of looking at a wall.

The AI isn't screwed up because of the flight model. Theoretically, the AI can be smarter then us. WE define how smart the AI is. My point is that I can fly choppers decently so that means that the AI should also be able to do the same but if they are not programmed correctly, they can't. So it's not because of the flight model, it's just the AI that is not programmed correctly. That's a totally different problem.

I also noticed the bug when you are not the group leader, you don't get the box to give orders when you press space. You can still press space and target stuff by trying to aim with the midle of the screen but it shouldn't be like that.

I also noticed that sometimes in the Cobra when firing the missles, they don't fly at the target. Instead they hit the ground 20 meters infront of the target. I guess something screws up when the missles try to lead.

[Mr_Tea 0]

In OFP\Res i never have seen one single AI pilot, that had flown that stupidly.

It`s like flightstudents after theire first flighthours in an heli, or plane.

Noone would allow those people to handle multi million dollar hardware.