William Porter's Blog

[dm 9]

In response to the discussion on OFP as a simulator:

I am quite sorry to point out to you that this is not a simulator, it is a game.

Moreover, even highly realistic a simulator game such as il2, which is much more detailed and complex than ofp is, is a game and not a simulator.

In FACT, even in the case of VBS, I would say that it is a game adapted for use as a training aid... but I would not go so far as to say it is a simulation. The relevent similarity of the game-world to the real world is mostly an appeal to the sensory perception of the user rather than a legitimate attempt to simulate real world physics or situations. The gestalt of ofp is what I assume to be a highly realistic game, especially in comparison to its peers. However, there is no one aspect of it that actually simulates something.

Quote[/b] ]

sim·u·la·tor Audio pronunciation of "simulator" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (smy-ltr)

n.

One that simulates, especially an apparatus that generates test conditions approximating actual or operational conditions.

Suffice it to say, OFP does not approximate operating conditions.

The OFP-as-a-Simulator seems to be the primary premise of an argument demanding perfection within a fraction of a milimeter from the artists that work for BIS. Since the game is being produced by a business, and employees are usually paid at some kind of rate, there can only be so much time spent on research and/or revisions before such activities become financial liabilities. In my humble and honest opinion, complaining with such strength, voice and attitude over something with such a- how shall we put it?- narrow scope of interest is distasteful and downright counter-productive. A much more positive way to spend your time might be to plan out a unit replacement. You can learn a little about graphics editting and the workflow of gameart development, and discuss a potential roster of people who might wish to help you with tasks that are beyond your abilities. Learning a little about game software development might help put this situation in perspective from over the fence.

By the same logic M$ FlightSim and TrainSim are also games?

Ofcourse its a game, but its GENRE is simulation. Therefore it should aim to recreate things as accurately as possible within the limits of the game.

You can split hairs about game Vs. simulation for years. But at the end of the day OFP/VBS and ArmA are of the simulation genre, and are marketed as "the most realistic military simulation available" (which they are)

Point being, while these little errors dont count for much individually, when you add them all up they can lead to big holes in the "realism"

[Ukraineboy 0]

You can split hairs about game Vs. simulation for years. But at the end of the day OFP/VBS and ArmA are of the simulation genre, and are marketed as "the most realistic military simulation available" (which they are)

Wow...you people honestly thing default OFP is realistic?!....wow...

[NeMeSiS 11]

You can split hairs about game Vs. simulation for years. But at the end of the day OFP/VBS and ArmA are of the simulation genre, and are marketed as "the most realistic military simulation available" (which they are)

Wow...you people honestly thing default OFP is realistic?!....wow...

compared to other games, yes, compared to real life, no. But you wont get closer to a military simulation while still being fun

(as guarding some random outpost in the middle of nowhere and nothing happens at all isnt very interesting to play )

[Journeyman 0]

You can split hairs about game Vs. simulation for years. But at the end of the day OFP/VBS and ArmA are of the simulation genre, and are marketed as "the most realistic military simulation available" (which they are)

Wow...you people honestly thing default OFP is realistic?!....wow...

compared to other games, yes, compared to real life, no. But you wont get closer to a military simulation while still being fun

(as guarding some random outpost in the middle of nowhere and nothing happens at all isnt very interesting to play )

The prospect of getting shot in the head isn't much fun either  ...LOL!  

Personally I would rather that BIS spent their time making the physics of actually driving a 4 wheel drive vehicle as accurate as possible, taking into account things like centre differentials, wheel spin and diff locks rather than worrying about a flipping air intake grill!  

[ebud 18]

If it were one person doing everything I would agree, but artists don't normally deal with coding on physics.

[max power 21]

In response to the discussion on OFP as a simulator:

I am quite sorry to point out to you that this is not a simulator, it is a game.

Moreover, even highly realistic a simulator game such as il2, which is much more detailed and complex than ofp is, is a game and not a simulator.

In FACT, even in the case of VBS, I would say that it is a game adapted for use as a training aid... but I would not go so far as to say it is a simulation. The relevent similarity of the game-world to the real world is mostly an appeal to the sensory perception of the user rather than a legitimate attempt to simulate real world physics or situations. The gestalt of ofp is what I assume to be a highly realistic game, especially in comparison to its peers. However, there is no one aspect of it that actually simulates something.

Quote[/b] ]

sim·u·la·tor Audio pronunciation of "simulator" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (smy-ltr)

n.

One that simulates, especially an apparatus that generates test conditions approximating actual or operational conditions.

Suffice it to say, OFP does not approximate operating conditions.

The OFP-as-a-Simulator seems to be the primary premise of an argument demanding perfection within a fraction of a milimeter from the artists that work for BIS. Since the game is being produced by a business, and employees are usually paid at some kind of rate, there can only be so much time spent on research and/or revisions before such activities become financial liabilities. In my humble and honest opinion, complaining with such strength, voice and attitude over something with such a- how shall we put it?- narrow scope of interest is distasteful and downright counter-productive. A much more positive way to spend your time might be to plan out a unit replacement. You can learn a little about graphics editting and the workflow of gameart development, and discuss a potential roster of people who might wish to help you with tasks that are beyond your abilities. Learning a little about game software development might help put this situation in perspective from over the fence.

By the same logic M$ FlightSim and TrainSim are also games?

Ofcourse its a game, but its GENRE is simulation. Therefore it should aim to recreate things as accurately as possible within the limits of the game.

You can split hairs about game Vs. simulation for years. But at the end of the day OFP/VBS and ArmA are of the simulation genre, and are marketed as "the most realistic military simulation available" (which they are)

Point being, while these little errors dont count for much individually, when you add them all up they can lead to big holes in the "realism"

MS flight simulator (I have not played MSFSX) is a game. In fact, that series, especially the combat flight simulator series, are much less realistic than the series from 1c Maddox. The genre of game is called 'flight simulator', but this doesn't make it a flight simulator by any means. For instance, using tables to emulate changes in air pressure by altitude does nothing to simulate the complex relationship between pressure, temperature and altitude, and their effects on lift and and engine manifold pressure.

This slippery slope argument about little fragments of innaccuracy leading to gigantic holes in realism is an endless source of amusement for me. You're talking about grilles on a humvee adding up with other indescrepencies ruining the realism of a game experience- a game experience which is far from realistic even if there was a complete absense of any such errors. In fact, even with OFP's arcade-like world, the sum of the experience is actually quite convicing.. ie. the sum of many errors actually leads to and experience that is convincing enough to have many people argue that it is a simulator. What you are talking about is errors that you pick up on that ruin the immersive experience for you, for whatever reason. Because you are sensitive to these errors does not mean that OFP would be realistic in the absense of these details. Moreover, just because something is more realistic than something else does not mean that it is a simulator. The fact that BIS or Codemasters advertise a product as a realistic simulator is NOT PROOF that it actually is. This is not a self evident truth that can be referred to simply as being so because it was written somewhere some time in the past. Additionally, perhaps the argument of game vs. simulator is persistent because it is an important issue. Drawing attention to a persistent issue and using its persistence as a premise for the argument that it is meaningless is a red herring and it totally non-sensical.

VBS and OFP are in the game genre of simulations, not in the mathematical, programming, or any other sense. Games have been used as training methods for.. well.. ever. Wargames are fought, artillery competitions are played... even lions use play to sharpen their hunting skills. But does that mean that the lions are faithfully emulating a hunting situation when they are rolling in the dirt? No. And neither are ofp or VBS 1 faithful accounts of what they are depicting. They are relevently similar in terms of certain skills they demand, and perhaps aspects of the experience they facilitate.

I have a lot of respect for BAS and your mods. Your mods are the only non-TC mods that I use. I play all of the missions your team has created religiously with my friends and by myself... but you didn't think that in that process that you were somehow creating a blackhawk simulator, did you?

[Guest Ti0n3r]

Wow...you people honestly thing default OFP is realistic?!....wow...

Agreed. BF2 is more realistic than vanilla OFP

...

[dm 9]

You can split hairs about game Vs. simulation for years. But at the end of the day OFP/VBS and ArmA are of the simulation genre, and are marketed as "the most realistic military simulation available" (which they are)

Wow...you people honestly thing default OFP is realistic?!....wow...

There is a difference between being the most realistic available and actually realistic. Look at who I am, then make your own conclusion to that.

<span style='font-size:7.5pt;line-height:100%'>(If you really need that much help, NO I do not think that vanilla OFP is realistic. It IS however the most realistic sim available)</span>

Plaintiff, you obviously have a lot of background knowledge in the area, I will counter with - In my opinion it (anything - game, simulator, or whatever) is not a TRUE simulator unless you have hardware mockups infront of you, and some form of actuators underneath you.

Like I said, you can split hairs about what is or is not a simulator until you're old and grey. My point is, that while graphical glitches appear to be irrelevant on the surface, they can often indicate more serious errors "under the hood" so to speak.

Put simply - if they are getting simple things like that wrong on the surface, whats going on in the engine? It shows lack of depth to the research (as well as the human limitations of 9-5 artists) which can effect other areas (such as the engine code) more seriously.

And to round off - No, we didn't. What we DID think was that we were making the most accurate/realistic representation of the MH-60L/K Blackhawks <span style='font-size:7.5pt;line-height:100%'>WITHIN THE LIMITS OF THE GAME ENGINE</span>

[hellfish6 7]

And to round off - No, we didn't. What we DID think was that we were making the most accurate/realistic representation of the MH-60L/K Blackhawks <span style='font-size:7.5pt;line-height:100%'>WITHIN THE LIMITS OF THE GAME ENGINE</span>

Exactly. There were a lot of glaring issues with OFP - and even VBS, to an extent - that could have been easily fixed. The fact that they weren't and the fact that they are/were indeed glaring errors does take away a lot of the realism for me. Often times 5 seconds of research could have fixed these issues (burst mode on the AK, 30mm cannon on the Cobra, etc.) yet even now, how many patches and how many years later they still aren't fixed. I'm hoping with AA, at least, these silly little issues are corrected.

[Placebo 29]

As interesting as this all may be what exactly does it have to do with "William Porter's Blog"?

Try "How realistic do you expect ArmA to be?" for debating realism.

[sniper pilot 36]

MS flight simulator (I have not played MSFSX) is a game. In fact, that series, especially the combat flight simulator series, are much less realistic than the series from 1c Maddox. The genre of game is called 'flight simulator', but this doesn't make it a flight simulator by any means. For instance, using tables to emulate changes in air pressure by altitude does nothing to simulate the complex relationship between pressure, temperature and altitude, and their effects on lift and and engine manifold pressure.

But the point is getting it as close as possible to RL. Look full realism isn't that bad and getting shot at in real life sucks, but in a virtual world, its fun, When I die ingame, I can look back and how i died and reflect (Eg. Wow I got messed up by that sniper 500 yards away..... cool! And knowing that it was a bullet that curved through the air and that it took "skill" to fire that round makes it all the more fun and as stated in the thread that is based on all this, It makes it all the more immersive, more of that feeling that your there WHICH IS FUN.

And its great fun just to mess around in the editor. How far away can i cap that commie with my M24? How high can i blow that car into the sky? AND in the far future (IMO most likely very far future ) What would it look like if i detonated a C4 stick underneath a Car? Where would the peices fly? Would it break apart that house and spew the furniture about? Would it Flip like in the Action Movies?

I Love realism and by far BiS has created it top notch considering it realesed 2001 and had SEA, Air, Land vehicles and massive enviroments I mean take a look at this 2001 game:

Yeah... I know that was not only my opinion but many others as well.... (Well at least one other )

[Placebo 29]

Sniper Pilot I generally quite prefer not to be ignored

[-DirTyDeeDs--Ziggy- 0]

how about dem Red Sox

William Blog is

[sniper pilot 36]

Sniper Pilot I generally quite prefer not to be ignored

sorry i guess i clicked quote before i came across your post my bad sir!

I am egerly awaiting other posts from WP.

[Journeyman 0]

So what's keeping William from the Internet café this time then?

[zedderzulu 7]

Maybe he's still repremanded over the reckless driving?

[somebloke 0]

or wreckless, if he didn't crash.

I think he's been put on toilet duty.

[armandobronca 0]

I just think Medvidek is busy

[Journeyman 0]

OK William, get back into that café on the double! ….IT’S AN ORDER!  

[sniperandy 0]

Quote[/b] ]So what's keeping William from the Internet café this time then?

I think he's currently a little "banged up" for nicking that car the other day and leaving the base without a "leave pass"! cause he was just on leave before that, so he wouldn't have gotten anohter pass just a frew days later...

[majorpwnage 0]

As far as marketing goes, the use of the blog in the first person character to describe what was happening in this fictional place was a great idea.  A lot of possibilities with narratives, pictures, video, etc.

The end result though has been disappointing.  Just like everything else related to ArmA, the lack of updates to the blog and the poor information released is typical of the way BIS has distributed information.  Great concept but poor execution.

As far as the actual game goes, I expect that it will be nothing short of fantastic.  I look forward to buying it in 2013 when it is finally released.

[NeMeSiS 11]

As far as marketing goes, the use of the blog in the first person character to describe what was happening in this fictional place was a great idea.  A lot of possibilities with narratives, pictures, video, etc.

The end result though has been disappointing.  Just like everything else related to ArmA, the lack of updates to the blog and the poor information released is typical of the way BIS has distributed information.  Great concept but poor execution.

As far as the actual game goes, I expect that it will be nothing short of fantastic.  I look forward to buying it in 2013 when it is finally released.

BIS arent releasing less info then most devs, and every game gets delayed, so what? Better a finished game which is delayed then a half finished game that is released on a release date which the developers just guessed. (release dates are always guessed, contrary to popular belief, devs cant look into the future and see when they are done   )

[Guest Ti0n3r]

Quote[/b] ]Great concept but poor execution.

I'd have to agree to 100%. The first 2-3 weeks were great, but the rest...

[Speeeedy 0]

What many of you do not realise is that BIS may not be able to release more info. It might sound wierd, but BIS is most likely talking to publishers right now (No i dont have a source). Often the publishers don't want any or little information to be published while a deal ain't signed yet. This is both for PR reasons and to make sure no wrong statements are given.

And i don't think BIS is holding back much with information. Almost weekly there are new screenshots available and often more then ones a month an interview. THere are very few developers that actually do that.

[Scrub 0]

There's just so few games that are loved as much (makes the time go by slower than anything)