Steel Beasts Pro PE

[metalcraze 290]

They are under no obligation to provide it to the general public and that in itself generates a cost for them. At the very least they have to create a public build of the latest Mil Sim version, update licensing keys, provide documentation and host the files.

It isn't like they don't ask the price of two blockbuster games for it.

For the public version the market is relatively tiny compared to other games that already have a narrow market base such as ArmA.

Games which ask $50-$60 are developed from scratch over years, here eSim asks $105-125 for a game where all they have to do is cutting stuff out. SB Pro PE to SB Pro is what ArmA2 Free is to ArmA2.

If they cared about how many copies they sell they wouldn't be asking such price for a niche game which in turn is a butchered version of a real product which is their biggest source of income for a mere development of which they get millions.

If I remember rightly its not that long ago that a group of modders from that community created a company called Lead Pursuit, put together a freely available number of mods and sold an updated version as F4 Allied Force. They had licensing costs as they had to pay Atari for the honour so in my mind that was justifiable. As for Free Falcon, its like ArmA, as long as people don't charge for content no one can be accused of infringing upon copyright or making money from someone elses IP. It's in the communities best interests to keep it that way. Imagine what would happen if I started charging people for scripts or addons, not only would there be an enormous community backlash but no doubt BIS would be on the blower demanding their cut.

The point is that unlike eSim - modders don't get anything (apart from some donations and maybe a jpeg medal) for their work. And yet they spend years developing, changing, upgrading.

Another issue is that there are so few companies today that are willing to pander to this select group of nutters and provide intelligent non-mainstream games or sims or whatever you want to call them.

If we weren't so starved for choice then maybe I'd feel differently but I'm happy to pay, if it means these guys can stay in business and continue providing their wares to the not so general public.

You really underestimate how much money devs developing military software get. Civilian versions are just an additional source of income to them (if the dev cares only about money) or are simply for the fun of it (which is the case with Sonalysts which mostly develop sonars and software for them for subs and as I see it so far - BIS too)

The only question is if it's profitable enough to hold a civilian branch. With BIS it's understandable - VBS and ArmA are separate products with separate development teams and even engine branches. SB Pro PE is just SB Pro without a lot of cool stuff.

Edited December 16, 2011 by metalcraze

[nodunit 397]

Most of Steel Beasts Pro PE development income comes from military contracts, the upgrade charges are for tanks that those military clients won't pay for but add depth to the sim, like the T-55, Challanger etc. One day the tanks might even have shadows and moving road wheels, here's to that day.

The thing I never liked about esim is their adversion to allowing modding, I remember reading a comment from Ssnake few years ago (before Arma was released) saying that he thought BIS would have regretted adding mod support to Operation Flashpoint as it drove military business from them...

Tradeoff is they got a very lively community with diverse tastes and goals, not to mention an adoringly rabid fanbase. Besides, the DLC supposedly sold quite well despite there being mods that 'did similar things' so obviously having modding doesn't greatly impede income, and it greatly influences the growth and positivity of the game on a more concrete standpoint rather than "the next big thing"..I just wish more companies would realize that.

By the way, could you give some examples of how SB pro PE (theres a mouth full) differes from SB pro?

Edited December 16, 2011 by NodUnit

[MrBump 10]

On the other hand, it would be a shame to have SB ruined like il2 1946.

IL2 1946 was ruined (for some) by being cracked for modding, not because the developer supported modding, which they didn't.

[dmarkwick 261]

It isn't like they don't ask the price of two blockbuster games for it.

Games which ask $50-$60 are developed from scratch over years, here eSim asks $105-125 for a game where all they have to do is cutting stuff out. SB Pro PE to SB Pro is what ArmA2 Free is to ArmA2.

If they cared about how many copies they sell they wouldn't be asking such price for a niche game which in turn is a butchered version of a real product which is their biggest source of income for a mere development of which they get millions.

The point is that unlike eSim - modders don't get anything (apart from some donations and maybe a jpeg medal) for their work. And yet they spend years developing, changing, upgrading.

You really underestimate how much money devs developing military software get. Civilian versions are just an additional source of income to them (if the dev cares only about money) or are simply for the fun of it (which is the case with Sonalysts which mostly develop sonars and software for them for subs and as I see it so far - BIS too)

The only question is if it's profitable enough to hold a civilian branch. With BIS it's understandable - VBS and ArmA are separate products with separate development teams and even engine branches. SB Pro PE is just SB Pro without a lot of cool stuff.

Metalcraze, your simplistic reasonings and assumptions are doing you no favours :) I can understand your aversion to patches that you have to pay for, you really don't need to bulk it out with other reasons. Particularly when those other reasons are rather obviously based on assumption and even worse, illogical comparison to a different situation.

---------- Post added at 11:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:42 AM ----------

The thing I never liked about esim is their adversion to allowing modding, I remember reading a comment from Ssnake few years ago (before Arma was released) saying that he thought BIS would have regretted adding mod support to Operation Flashpoint as it drove military business from them...

Indeed, I guess Ssnake doesn't know about the value of a separate, fully supported, set-in-concrete stable platform :D

@DMarwick – They’re slowly dragging the graphics into the 21st Century mate but still much of it is “like so last millenniumâ€.

Looking better.... but not there yet :) thanks for the images.

[MrBump 10]

I have to say that when Ssnake announced they were to do paid updates he was very upfront about the reasons for it, and the community was mostly understanding. I don't think the sim earns that much from military contracts, mainly because they don't have the US market.

[max power 21]

IL2 1946 was ruined (for some) by being cracked for modding, not because the developer supported modding, which they didn't.

Nope. Around in my neck of the woods it wasn't until they opened it up for modding that everyone stopped playing.

[MrBump 10]

Nope. Around in my neck of the woods it wasn't until they opened it up for modding that everyone stopped playing.

What do you mean by 'until they opened it up'? Unless it's changed recently, the only modification authorised and allowed by Oleg were the patches released by the Daidalos Team starting in 2010 and that was only because the devs no longer supported the game.

[max power 21]

There was a point where the forum all of a sudden started allowing modding talk and mods started appearing out of the wood work. There was some talk on the squad sites about the game becoming more moddable all of a sudden. I played that game for years, and there was a very rapid change. If it wasn't made possible in a patch, I don't know what happened, but it was sudden.

[hellfire257 3]

The game essentially was "cracked" to allow modding. I always enjoyed the mods more if I'm honest. Zuti's MDS really changed how I played '46, especially coops.

[james mckenzie-smith 1]

$25 for bug fixes and a few models.

SWEET

Not going to buy now.

http://esimgames.com/purchase.htm

A new license for SB Pro PE v2.640 costs $100. The $25 upgrade is for owners of previous versions.

[Vexter 1]

it's far more than just bug fixes and a few new models.

10 completely new playable vehicles, CV9030F, T-72M1, LAV-III, BRDM-2, BTR-80, M901, challenger 2, GTK boxer, fuchs, cougar MRAP

4 new non-playable vehicles, centurion, M109, 2S1, shilka.

new civilian vehicles, 125cc motorbike, truck, and a van.

5 new bridges, all of them destructible.

playable deployable missile launchers, M220A2 TOW, Fagot, Milan, Bill, malyutka.

4 updated vehicles with improved, or added vehicle interiors, leopard 1A5DK, M2A2 bradley, leopard 2A4, M1A1 abrams.

updated vehicle models, BMP-1, BMP-2, leopard 1A5DK.

increased visibility range, up to 18km.

Helicopters now have the ability to drop soldiers.

thats a bit more than "just a few bugfixes" IMO. and i probably forgot a few things.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Vexter

[max power 21]

18,000 km? So when you're in Canada, say, you can see Australia?

[reconteam 19]

I'd pay $70 for such a sim, I'm real iffy about the $100+ figure though. I suppose I could understand it if you were getting the DVD version delivered with a full, high quality manual and all of that cool stuff.

Someday perhaps. Maybe if my corporate masters gave me a raise.

I don't understand why increased sales wouldn't make up for lowering the price, even if just for a time as part of a sale.

[CameronMcDonald 146]

18,000 km? So when you're in Canada, say, you can see Australia?

You know you want to, Max. We've got it all. :D

[Vexter 1]

I'd pay $70 for such a sim, I'm real iffy about the $100+ figure though. I suppose I could understand it if you were getting the DVD version delivered with a full, high quality manual and all of that cool stuff.

Someday perhaps. Maybe if my corporate masters gave me a raise.

I don't understand why increased sales wouldn't make up for lowering the price, even if just for a time as part of a sale.

can't really disagree with you. but there is a pretty good upgrade policy.

an update costs about 20$, and

you're pretty much free to update whenever you feel like it. so if you've purchased the sim, and you don't like the content of the next update, you can skip it, and wait for the next one after that, but when you decide to update, you'll still get all of the things that were in the last update.

[kualus 1]

I'd like to mention my own experiences with Steel Beasts Pro PE, since I think they need to be known.

The simulator itself is excellent, and I only have a few minor issues (flying M88 bug, outdated graphics-but I do have a fondness for some old graphics engines, including this one) with it. It's the toxic community that makes it not worth getting. The community is toxic and xenophobic, luring the few newcomers in just to implicitly bash them, and deludes itself into thinking it isn't on life support. If anyone has hesitancy about getting it because of its price, the members will attack that person and accuse them of lack of commitment. It is lorded over by Nils "Ssnake" Hinrichsen, eSimGames's marketing and sales director, xenophobic manchild extraordinaire, who has lied about Intel CPU designations, falsely accused forum members of racism, screamed at members who try to help him, and essentially admits to lying about the new graphics engine. There's no way to appeal over his head, as all ways to contact eSimGames go through him. No one ever stands up to him, because they are all cowards, and quite a few of them are nearly as bad as he is. They taunt those with low post count, and even outright lie about other simulators while throwing in Steel Beasts sales pitches.

Then there's the vaporware. The playable T-72M1 was the Duke Nukem Forever of the sim: it took 6 years to arrive, and there was disappointment when it did show up. The fixes to 25mm and 30mm HE ammunition, the BM8 and BM46 ammunition, the 50x spotting score for the Lemur RWS were all promised in the 2.654 release notes, and not delivered. No quick patch to add them either. The additional T-55 variants which we were promised over 2 years ago are also MIA.

Long story short? Not worth it for any price, let alone the $100 for the download only version.

[max power 21]

Let's stop the spamming and continue with the topic at hand, shall we?

[max power 21]

scrim, DarkLabor, Kualus

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[kualus 1]

On July 25, at time index 00:36, one of the SB Pro PE community members spouted death threats just because someone else had gotten a hold of 1 vehicle platoon he was supposed to have. I'm not surprised.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grohuFz7_x4

[kualus 1]

http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbforums/showpost.php?p=273078&postcount=3342

Nils Hinrichsen's martyr complex is insane:

Boo-hoo, Al Delaney worked for four years without seeing a buck, I was working sixteen hour days (seven days a week, no vacations) for three years to get Steel Beasts off the ground while I had a number of day jobs.

Not sure if I would have decided to try it if I had known in advance how much work would have been involved, but in hindsight I'm glad that I was oblivious enough to not give a damn and just try it. In a way I'm still in that mode, I just want to know how far I can get, and I hope that the rest of the team has a similar kind of motivation.

16 hours a day, 365 days a year for 3 years, while having day jobs!? Thomas Edison's goddamn Insomnia Squad couldn't have pulled that stunt off. To think this is the person eSimGames has as their de facto PR man.

[Tonci87 163]

Is it still so darn expensive? Yes? So the devs are still stupid? OK..

[kualus 1]

It's currently USD 115 for a new license, so it's still expensive. Not that I mind, it's less than what people would spend on a WoW subscription in a year, or voluntarily on hats in TF2. The high price was set to keep the gaming rabble out, so they had a plausible reason. Another plausible reason is that they're a small company, and more players means more tech support they have to do.

[Tonci87 163]

Another plausible reson is that they are greedy and want to exploit interested players to the maximum. That explanation seems very likely when you consider that you have to pay for some upgrades.

[PuFu 4600]

Another plausible reson is that they are greedy and want to exploit interested players to the maximum. That explanation seems very likely when you consider that you have to pay for some upgrades.

Are you for real? So mods should be free, games should cost 30-60$ a pop, otherwise people are greedy? Developing games costs money. Constant development time and patching additional shit in costs money. The more you are in a league of your own, the more money you can make. It is call free market and it is based on supply and demand.

To be honest, i really don't know why arma is so cheap...

[Tonci87 163]

Are you for real? So mods should be free, games should cost 30-60$ a pop, otherwise people are greedy? Developing games costs money. Constant development time and patching additional shit in costs money. The more you are in a league of your own, the more money you can make. It is call free market and it is based on supply and demand.

To be honest, i really don't know why arma is so cheap...

In this case they are greedy because

A) They know how old, and frankly, outdated their engine is.

B) They charge for updates

C) The Product is very expensive compared to other games and even sims.

I know how free market works, if they can find enough people who are willing to fork out so much cash for a product that imho is outstanding in many areas, but also lacking in many others, and they are making a profit, good for them.

However there are competitors, like Graviteam for example, who will sell you their latest tank sim for under 30€

http://store.steampowered.com/app/286280/

In my opinion Steel beasts is simply outdated (it does offer a lot in gameplay and realism but the community is really small, mostly due to the high price)