European Politics Thread.

[oxmox 73]

is it true that in Scotland voting immigrants who are not citizens had right to vote ? cause our TV said that Poles who are there working since few years took part in voting, it would be hard to believe that guest may decide about home which he visited and owner of home has the same rights as visitor

edit:

yes, i wrote now, they had right to vote, really "funny" that all EU citizens had right to vote - for me it is cheat when you are not citizen of country X but can take part in voting about country X future

Referendum Open Only to Residents, Leaving More Than a Million Scots Unable to Vote

Many Scots living abroad find their inability to vote perplexing, particularly because they will automatically become Scottish citizens if Scotland becomes independent. Meanwhile, citizens of other European Union countries living in Scotland can vote.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/expatriates-must-sit-out-scotland-independence-vote-1410880706

Scotland 5,3 million people ( population; 2011 census)

Scots aren’t the only ones voting on whether Scotland should become independent

Some 500,000 English, Welsh, and Northern Irish will vote in the referendum, and polls show they favor maintaining the union by a large margin. But since the referendum will follow the same rules as local elections, the voters also will include more than 100,000 people from elsewhere in the EU and Commonwealth who are resident in Scotland.

There are more than 80,000 Poles living in Scotland, the biggest foreign group by far. Although likely voters will be a smaller subset of this, it is still a constituency that cannot be ignored. A survey of Poles in Scotland last month (pdf) found that 85% planned to vote, and a majority favored the “No†side.

http://qz.com/262329/scots-arent-the-only-ones-voting-on-whether-scotland-should-become-independent/

I was not surprised about the results.

The same will probably happen with the Catalans. (Catalans want to hold a self-determination referendum, something the Spanish Government completely opposes.)

If you think about it, people who are only residents in Scotland and comming from all of the EU countries can vote about an scottish independence but real scots with actually a passport living abroad cant do it.

Edited September 19, 2014 by oxmox

[mistyronin 1181]

The same will probably happen with the Catalans. (Catalans want to hold a self-determination referendum, something the Spanish Government completely opposes.)

If you think about it, people who are only residents from all the EU can vote about an scottish independence but real scots with actually a passport cant do it.

You are missing an important fact. There's no Scottish passport ( neither Catalan ).

There's no possible way to determine who is "Scottish" or "Catalan". So the easy way ( and practically only legit way ) is to let vote all the ones that live there.

The inclusion of immigrants, it's quite a logic point too; as they live and work there are mainly affected by the vote.

Neither in Scotland nor in Catalonia "nationality" is understood as a blood racist thing but as a right you gain living there ( no matter your origin ).

Edited September 19, 2014 by MistyRonin

[oxmox 73]

You are missing an important fact. There's no Scottish passport ( neither Catalan ).

There's no possible way to determine who is "Scottish" or "Catalan". So the easy way ( and practically only legit way ) is to let vote all the ones that live there.

The inclusion of immigrants, it's quite a logic point too; as they live and work there are mainly affected by the vote.

Neither in Scotland nor in Catalonia "nationality" is understood as a blood racist thing but as a right you gain living there.

?

Of course there is no scottish passport and no passport for Catalans, like there is no passport for Bavaria....wonder how you get there. But it is for sure to determine who is Scottish or British and Catalan or Basques. Talking alone about the language differences/accents.

Edited September 19, 2014 by oxmox

[Tonci87 163]

?

Of course there is no scottish passport and no passport for Catalans....wonder how you get there.

If you think about it, people who are only residents in Scotland and comming from all of the EU countries can vote about an scottish independence but real scots with actually a passport living abroad cant do it.

I´m pretty sure it´s from there.....

[mistyronin 1181]

Of course there is no scottish passport and no passport for Catalans....wonder how you get there. But it is for sure to determine who is Scottish or British and Catalan or Basques. Talking alone about the language differences/accents.

That doesn't make any sense.

Most of Basques speak Spanish, not Euskara. In Catalonia there is a huge amount of Spanish Immigration that have born and lived in Catalonia and they still want the independence, even if they are not "ethnically" Catalans and don't speak Catalan ( for instance: http://www.sumate.cat/ ); more exaggerated is in the Basque Country where the huge majority of the independentists speak natively Spanish.

I've live both in Catalonia and Basque country ( among other places ), and no one there would want that ( specially in the first one ). Consider who has the right of vote for their accent would be considered extremely racist and intolerant. That's why their language the only native European with the Finnish. All the rest are indo-european.

Basques have always lived more or less isolated in the hills ( kind of the Asterix Village ), and in the past had a bit of that "racist" blood component, not anymore.

But Catalans are the product of the mixture of Iberians, Celtics, Phoenicians, Greeks, Cartago people, Romans, Visigoths, Jews, Franks ( old French ), Spanish, and lately people from all over the world.

In fact Catalonia is the product of Charlemagne, that created Frank counties in the Pyrenees. That's also why probably Catalan and French are so alike ( and considered from the same family with the Occitan ).

That's why for instance why when Napoleon "invaded" Spain, he annexed Catalonia to France and leave the rest to his brother.

While for example Spain is product of Castille, a Visigothic nation that seek for shelter in the northern Spanish mountains during the Muslim invasion of the Peninsula.

Edited September 19, 2014 by MistyRonin

[oxmox 73]

That doesn't make any sense.

Most of Basques speak Spanish, not Euskara. In Catalonia there is a huge amount of Spanish Immigration that have born and lived in Catalonia and they still want the independence, even if they are not "ethnically" Catalans and don't speak Catalan ( for instance: http://www.sumate.cat/ ); more exaggerated is in the Basque Country where the huge majority of the independentists speak natively Spanish.

I've live both in Catalonia and Basque country ( among other places ), and no one there would want that ( specially in the first one ). Consider who has the right of vote for their accent would be considered extremely racist and intolerant.

Basques have always lived more or less isolated in the hills ( kind of the Asterix Village ), and in the past had a bit of that "racist" blood component, not anymore.

But Catalans are the product of the mixture of Iberians, Celtics, Phoenicians, Greeks, Cartago people, Romans, Visigoths, Jews, Franks ( old French ), Spanish, and lately people from all over the world.

In fact Catalonia is the product of Charlemagne, that created Frank counties in the Pyrenees. That's also why probably Catalan and French are so alike.

Take for example United Kingdom. You will find the i.e. Irish, Scottish, British, Wales, ....these are ethnic groups living together in the United Kingdom.

Germany is another good example, you will find even a lot more ethnic groups than in the United Kingdom. At least every State in Germany is a different type of ethnic group, we have 16 states including 3 federal city states which can you exclude.

In both countries the ethnic groups origin were different types of tribes.

The difference seems to be that in the UK the thoughts of independence and rivalry of such ethnic groups seems to be a lot stronger. Even if Germany has a lot more ethnical differences within the country, the solidarity overweights the rivalry.

The reasons for such a strong thought of independence in the United Kingdom is probably to find in the history of this country.

We should discuss this in another thread, maybe the thread about the Catalans or if a Scottish indep. exists. We are going too much offtopic now in the thread about the Ukraine.

Edited September 19, 2014 by oxmox

[mistyronin 1181]

We should discuss this in another thread, maybe the thread about the Catalans or if a Scottish indep. exists. We are going too much offtopic now in the thread about the Ukraine.

?

It's a thread about European Politics.

And as far as I know, all these territories are still inside Europe :)

As far as I know too, independence movements are the trending topic right now in European Politics.

- - -

Both in Catalonia and Scotland accept as "ethnics" the integrated immigrant population.

Edited September 19, 2014 by MistyRonin

[da12thMonkey 1943]

The terms of who could and could not vote in the referendum were decided by the Scottish parliament (or at least the incumbent Scottish National Party) - it was Scotland's choice to give votes to all residents rather than to limit it to British nationals living in Scotland. Same as deciding that 16-17 year olds could vote (which isn't usually allowed in any UK elections).

Of the options available for deciding the eligible electorate, it was probably the easiest to manage, except for maybe extending the limitation to just UK citizens living in Scotland where they're registered to vote. It's not really possible to discern if a British citizen is Scottish, Welsh or English to narrow the field further to "Scots only", other than simply taking a persons word of self-determination as being Scottish, English or whatever. There is no legal status for being a Welsh, English or Scottish citizen instead of being simply a British citizen - so opening it up the "Scottish" people residing outside of Scotland would have really meant making it a vote open to any British citizen who claimed to be Scottish and asked for a vote, whether they'd ever stepped foot in Scotland or not.

However, according to the census the number of people born in Scotland living in the rest of the UK is double the number of people living in Scotland that were born in the rest of the UK. So still allowing non-Scottish UK citizens in Scotland to vote probably probably has little effect on the outcome compared to to letting Scots from outside Scotland have their vote.

But anyway, back to the point about other EU citizens and various foreign nationals being able to vote: The Scottish population born outside of the UK still only accounts for 7% of the entire population of Scotland - AFAIK that's including people who do now have British citizenship but were born abroad. Even assuming the completely unrealistic scenario that every one of these people did vote yesterday and that they all voted "no", including those in the foreign population figures that are not actually eligible to vote (for example because they're under the age of 16, or in prison or whatever). That would still only account for 7% of the "No" votes cast, and there would still be a 3% margin in favour of staying in the UK.

Edited September 19, 2014 by da12thMonkey

[oxmox 73]

?

It's a thread about European Politics.

And as far as I know, all these territories are still inside Europe :)

As far as I know too, independence movements are the trending topic right now in European Politics.

- - -

Both in Catalonia and Scotland accept as "ethnics" the integrated immigrant population.

hehe, i thought iam in a different thread... :p

I have to add something when it comes to my example with Germany. It gets even more complicated with ethnic groups in Germany since the states which reflect certain ethnics are divided again. Take for example Bavaria. Bavaria itself is a state and holds an ethnic group which are called Baiovarii, but this state is again divided into administrative regions within the federal state. Alone Bavaria has again 8 different regions and also ethnical differences, called tribes. These Baiovarii tribes are not about germanic or celtic tribes, such type of tribes would add even more content. Each of the state (the area states) in Germany is divided into such smaller administrative regions and they represent aswell tribes with their culturally differences. You see, quiete a complicated history and very deep with all these kind of ehtnics/tribes.

Alright, well Iam sure when we dig deeper into the history of the United Kingdom we could find out why there is such a strong rivalry and demand of independence. Actually they have states within their nation like i.e. Germany but have issues with a federation.

Edited September 19, 2014 by oxmox

[mistyronin 1181]

BTW now that we are talking about the subject, I've just seen that the Catalan Parliament has voted ( 106 vs 28 votes, 79% of the parliament, so higher support that Scotland ) to approve the law that will pave the way for the November's vote:

( The Guardian ) Catalonia's parliament paves the way for November vote on independence

Polls show that 80% of people in the region of 7.5 million want the chance to vote on secession. Unlike London, Madrid has refused to entertain any kind of consultation on independence. Analysts point out that Madrid has more to lose – the wealthy north-eastern region of Catalonia is home to about 16% of the Spanish population and accounts for nearly one-fifth of Spain's GDP.

I also remember that Catalonia's one of the 4 motors of Europe ( the Four Motors for Europe are four highly industrialized regions in Europe ).

So it's not as "secondary" as Scotland might be, but a top EU political issue.

[oxmox 73]

So it's not as "secondary" as Scotland might be, but a top EU political issue.

They wont let em go, like the UK wont let go the Scots :D and like the Ukraine would have not let go the Crimea, but here the ethnical groups are even about nations.

[mistyronin 1181]

They wont let em go, like the UK wont let go the Scots :D

Well in Scotland, they convinced the population with new rights and increased powers. In Spain that doesn't look likely, the Spanish Gov is focusing more on creating hate ( as it gave them votes ).

Just to tell that instead of giving them more rights, Spain Gov. is trying to remove more and more autonomy from the different territories. For instance, Catalonia had all the competencies in Education. Now the Spanish Gov approved a law that ruled over the education in Catalan, etc.

In fact one may argue, that the main source of independentism is the authoritarian and racist behavior of the Spanish Gov. Just the opposite as in UK.

Feel free to check the Spanish main newspapers, and the Spanish ministers speeches. In them they call Catalans Nazis, say that the Catalan Gov have connections with Al Qaeda, etc. and all kind of crazy stuff. It's more similar to the Kremlin's behavior.

Edited September 19, 2014 by MistyRonin

[oxmox 73]

Well in Scotland, they convinced the population with new rights and increased powers. In Spain that doesn't look likely, the Spanish Gov is focusing more on creating hate ( as it gave them votes ).

Just to tell that instead of giving them more rights, Spain Gov. is trying to remove more and more autonomy from the different territories. For instance, Catalonia had all the competencies in Education. Now the Spanish Gov approved a law that ruled over the education in Catalan, etc.

Well, all these autonomy/indepence movements are taking place since a longer time. The Basque movement with the ETA did slow down and you dont hear much about them anymore. The Irish did stop their independence fights aswell. And in the Ukraine, the differences between west and east exist at least since the Austrian monarchy. Someone needs a lot more deeper knowledge to judge all these movements and these are not so easy to understand, but at the end people should decide and not nations.

[mistyronin 1181]

Well, all these autonomy/indepence movements are taking place since a longer time. The Basque movement with the ETA did slow down and you dont hear much about them anymore.

You should read for instance Catalonia's history, the claims for independence have hundreds of years ( 300 to be exactly, since the lost of it's independence ). As I told you even Napoleon or Hitler took some cards in the subject.

The Irish did stop their independence fights aswell.

Ireland is an independent country in its major part.

The Basque movement with the ETA did slow down and you dont hear much about them anymore.

The Basques have always had more privileges compared to Catalonia, based in ancient foral rights; while Catalonia was conquered militarily ( when it was betrayed by Austria and England ). You can't compare. But the last time I was there ( couple of years ago ), there was a huge movement.

Edited September 19, 2014 by MistyRonin

[oxmox 73]

You should read for instance Catalonia's history, the claims for independence have hundreds of years ( 300 to be exactly, since the lost of it's independence ). As I told you even Napoleon or Hitler took some cards in the subject.

Ireland is an independent country in its major part.

I have to read about their history or at least wikipedia more about it, I honestly dont know that much. Well, Napoleon he was on the way to be the first real world power but at the end he failed. I dont know about Hitler since Spain was neutral, will check it out thx.

[mistyronin 1181]

I have to read about their history or at least wikipedia more about it, I honestly dont know that much. Well, Napoleon he was on the way to be the first real world power but at the end he failed. I dont know about Hitler since Spain was neutral, will check it out thx.

Not the best source to get deep knowledge, but check its entry: History of Catalonia

[oxmox 73]

Not the best source to get deep knowledge, but check its entry: History of Catalonia

Thank you alot.

By the way since you are interested in history and international politics, read for sure the book which I did recommand in the Thread about the Ukraine from Zbigniew Brzeziński. (The Grand Chessboard). This is one of the most intersting, would say even important books I did read to understand parts of the world history and international politics. Very recommanded.

[mistyronin 1181]

read for sure the book which I did recommand in the Thread about the Ukraine from Zbigniew Brzeziński. (The Grand Chessboard). This is one of the most intersting, would say even important books I did read to understand parts of the world history and international politics. Very recommanded.

I have a lot of books in my "to-read" list but I'll add this one too. I appreciate the suggestion :)

[oxmox 73]

I have a lot of books in my "to-read" list but I'll add this one too. I appreciate the suggestion :)

This was the link if you missed it.

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?173470-Ukraine-General&p=2776934&viewfull=1#post2776934

Iam off to bed, cya :)

[mistyronin 1181]

This was the link if you missed it.

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?173470-Ukraine-General&p=2776934&viewfull=1#post2776934

Iam off to bed, cya :)

Yeah, a bit off-topic, but I have nowadays the tendency to read in the Kindle ( I have already 300 kg of books, and I move a lot of home / city / country ), so I add it there. :)

Good night!

[Tonci87 163]

Yeah, a bit off-topic, but I have nowadays the tendency to read in the Kindle ( I have already 300 kg of books, and I move a lot of home / city / country ), so I add it there. :)

Good night!

Same with me, I read almost exclusively on my smartphone now since that way I don´t have to carry books around with me. I can just read a bit while I have to wait for something. After moving last time and realising how heavy a few boxes with books can be..... (I even have some really nice very old books :) )

And this comes from a guy who used to run a Library and later worked in a book store.

[-Snafu- 78]

Well, seeing as the political leader behind the "Yes" campaign is a frakking idiot who keeps spouting lies and pushing the most optimistic projections he can find as the facts, I can only see bad times ahead if they do vote for independence. Either way, half the country will be pissed at the other half. Though at this point the "No" people are fairly civil while the "Yes" people appear to be fucking assholes, with the majority of what I've been seeing on FB and twitter being them talking about planning to intimidate voters, etc.

You haven't got the slightest clue.

[vilas 477]

Nazer Charif , immam of Polish muslims (0.08% in Poland) said ... that Sharia must be set in Poland (so according to them 0.08% has right to dictate rules for 99.92% of society), and there is nothing wrong in marriage of old man with little girl "cause girls are turned on" plus "fundamentalists are okay" "every muslim should be fundamentalist"

meanwhile in Norway, Australia, Belgium - Islamists planned terrorist acts and intels with police arrested dozens of muslim imigrants last week, who planned attack in those countries, (not mentioning Sharia-zones, and Sharia-police in London, German, French cities) , in Germany and Kosovo also there were some arrests,

in Poland 2 persons were arrested too, they were planning to buy camera and send cameras to Syria to film beheadings,

edit:

Polish Tatars (Muslim as well) reject Saudi Nazer Charif statement about Sharia, Tatars are moderate Muslims, not fundamentalists, and they feel Poles, not Islamists

Edited September 22, 2014 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

( The Guardian ) Catalonia leader calls referendum on independence from Spain

( Al Jazeera ) Catalonia signs decree for independence vote

Pro-independence sentiment in the economically strong region, where the Catalan language is spoken side-by-side with Spanish, has surged in recent years, fuelled by a sense that the region deserves better fiscal and political treatment from Madrid.

Mas signed the decree in a solemn ceremony in the regional government headquarters in Barcelona, flanked by most of the region's political leaders who support the vote.

"Like all the nations of the world, Catalonia has the right to decide its political future," said Mas.

( Le Monde ) Défiant Madrid, le président catalan convoque un référendum sur l'indépendance

[mistyronin 1181]

Funny fact, the Spanish Higher Court works on-demand for the Spanish Gov. ( so no democratic separation of powers ), in fact the Spanish Gov. already said what would be the High Court verdict.

( Al Jazeera ) Spain higher court suspends Catalonia vote

Unhappy at Spain's refusal to give it more powers, Catalonia has vowed for months to hold the referendum. The move is the latest secession push in Europe following Scotland's recent vote to remain in Britain.

Polls indicate most Catalans favour holding the referendum but are roughly evenly split on independence.

Al Jazeera's Jonah Hull, reporting from the Catalan capital, Barcelona, said recent polls have showed that 58 percent will endorse the independence of the region, home for 7.5 million inhabitants, who are proud of their distinct language and culture.

"Eighty-seven percent of those surveyed in the polls said they will be happy with whatever the result will be," our correspondent said.

Catalonia has prepared ballot boxes and begun publicity campaigns to inform the region's five million voters about the referendum.

( The Corner ) Catalonia independence: not a divorce, but a fiscal pact

Edited September 29, 2014 by MistyRonin