European Politics Thread.

[st_dux 26]

(Austrian school, Keynes and so on)

Keynesian economics and Austrian School economics couldn't be more different.

[Hans Ludwig 0]

Pre-Fascist Italy: Tax and Borrow and Spend

http://mises.org/daily/5194/PreFascist-Italy-Tax-and-Borrow-and-Spend

Government intervention led to people blaming the free markets and democracy instead of the former in the late 20s/30s, resulting in WW2.

i have simple example from primary school math level

for making product X there is need of 1000 hours of work (w.h.)

but contract says it must be done in week

so accoring to labour codex:

1000/40 w.h. per week = 25 men needed

if you will raise their work for 1 hour :

1000/45 (9 w.h. daily) = 22.2

3 men gone unemployed

only lowering number of w.h. will make save jobs

and not allowing to move production by owners of concerns

cause they want to put us back to SLAVERY

cause only efficient is death-work-camp

no payment, just guard with machinegun

it is "liberalism and free market in minimalized cost of work"

The employee gets more skilled and produces more widgets in even less time and produces a better quality widget then their competition. Because they save the firm money, they also get a bonus and the savings is passed onto the consumer. If the labor doesn't like the pay, the environment - corporate culture - or any other thing that he/she believes goes against their value judgement, they will leave. So the firm has to build incentives to retain skilled labor, as long as they also feel that the labor isn't asking for something that goes against the firm's value judgment. Surely you aren't arguing against what is essentially a form of democracy in the work place? No one is forced to work at a firm as a firm is not forced to hire people that goes against their ethos.

Edited May 23, 2011 by Hans Ludwig

[vilas 477]

produces more widgets in even less time and produces a better quality

bs, you cannot produce more books than printing machine can (but people can use this machine for 7.5 h or 9.5 h daily ), sawing machine won't sewn faster, but worker can sew clothes 7.5 or 11 h, saw can cut wood in 7.5 or 12 h but man making furniture can work 7 or 12 h,

you cannot "skill" someone to produce more in one hour cause it depends of machine he use in factory (i know cause i was working 1 year in factory 10 years ago)

the only problem is boss - who want earn more and make people to work 1-2 hours longer for the same money and than he fired 10% of people (example with numbers shown)

less greed bosses , more employee and lower unemployment and lower social problems in society of nation

the bigger unemployment , the bigger demands of bosses from employee

read yourself about karoshi and stress influence on strokes and such like, we have only ONE live, we cannot waste it for somebody's private jets

and greed retards always want to pull back to slavery era, cause they are greed and psychopats and not care about other people like it is told in our roots (christian culture as example and human dignity as basis)

If the labor doesn't like the pay, the environment - corporate culture - or any other thing that he/she believes goes against their value judgement, they will leave.

bs again, he must have another possibility to leave (which sometimes he do not have)

if there are oligopols, monopolisation (firm buys another firm, or firm moves to China) than it becomes a problem

in some regions there are 2-3 manufactors where workers can work, in some small towns there is for example only 1 employer etc.

there is no possibility to leave to another company if in town there is only one company and in nearby town there is no free place to work (we have such regions in Poland)

but dont sell me US-like bullshit about "mobility",

it is impossible to change place of living, cause you must first have money for new flat/house in new town (if someone is searching for job, he has not so much money to buy new house (move with wife and children cause he is not alone ), when in his region there is big unemployment, he can't sell his house - noone will buy it from him)

location is hard to change when there are high prices of houses and people have no savings (but only debts and family and kids)

Spanish and Greek people feel it, i hope more of us in Europe will feel it too and finally get rid of this liberal corporations (which moved production to China, which badly treat workers like for example some supermarkets - which also make bankrupt of many small shops in many cities , and than people simply have no place to move or leave )

i remember 10 years ago when in Poland there was over 20% of unemployment and 45% among young people after graduation (till today i cannot understand why we not made revolution in 2003 or 2002, if we not joined EU and emigrated in large number and had free media , hell knows what might had happen )

those all your "free market" theories were bullshit , it was all cause due to "free market" which not gave people to be rich but make people poor and poor

human life is biggest value

not money, not profit, but human life (less stress, happines, joy , love, friends etc)

karoshi is not for us :)

Edited May 24, 2011 by vilas

[VanhA-ICON 11]

human life is biggest value

not money, not profit, but human life (less stress, happines, joy , love, friends etc)

karoshi is not for us :)

The days of Height-Ashbury are over I'm afraid.

But it doesn't have to be so gloom about the relationship between the workers and employers. A good boss knows that his or hers most valuable asset is a happy worker. Luckily the trend is growing.

And I don't have to always like what I'm assigned to but I have a principal of at least trying to do my best what ever the task might be.

I don't commit myself mentally overtime like some poor souls who have mixed their free time with work and die of heart attack in their late 30's.

Money is required nowadays for ensuring a solid ground for the next generations to have a better start in life than we did.

[vilas 477]

Money is required nowadays for ensuring a solid ground for the next generations to have a better start in life than we did.

yes, and to have more work places, we must work less an slower - than employers will have to hire more workers

and than more people will have jobs , and employers will be force to treat workers better

cause people without heart (like many people in big business which are psychopaths) respect only force and talking with them is only by force (any kind of force)

souless and heartless will never understand that people have families, kids which they love, friends which they want to spend time etc.

only by force we can force our safe position to live (not to starve of poverty or starve of karoshi, stress, strokes, and white hairs at age of 30 and shaking hands from nerves (not from meeting someone new) - i know few people which lost their mind of work because of big stress )

i know man good at shooting in past and now because of nerves he would miss target even at 20 meters - he work 5 years for private company (selling in financial sector, b2b)

he made some money, he has wife, but became impotent (at least his wife written so)

i know woman making hell in her home (shouting at kid, husband) , when she returns from work or when there is a sunday because of next day - monday etc

Edited May 24, 2011 by vilas

[Hoot1988 0]

yes, and to have more work places, we must work less an slower - than employers will have to hire more workers

and than more people will have jobs , and employers will be force to treat workers better

cause people without heart (like many people in big business which are psychopaths) respect only force and talking with them is only by force (any kind of force)

souless and heartless will never understand that people have families, kids which they love, friends which they want to spend time etc.

only by force we can force our safe position to live (not to starve of poverty or starve of karoshi, stress, strokes, and white hairs at age of 30 and shaking hands from nerves (not from meeting someone new) - i know few people which lost their mind of work because of big stress )

i know man good at shooting in past and now because of nerves he would miss target even at 20 meters - he work 5 years for private company (selling in financial sector, b2b)

he made some money, he has wife, but became impotent (at least his wife written so)

i know woman making hell in her home (shouting at kid, husband) , when she returns from work or when there is a sunday because of next day - monday etc

Working slower and having more employees to pay would mean their products cost more triggering inflation, inflation tends to result in increased wages which inturn affects product cost and increases inflation further. You would then be in a vicious inflationary cycle.

You have Niall Ferguson in your sig, a guy who seems to be a bit of a Keynesian reference audio track on loop.

I've seen him disagree with Keynesian thought on a number of occasions. His recent appearance on Question Time in the UK was one that springs to mind. He is a history scholar though and written much on financial history which has been dominated by Keynesian thought for most of the 20th Century. He is also currently advising the current British Government, which is defiantly not Keynesian.

As this is a european politics thread what are peoples thoughts on the bail outs?

Edited May 24, 2011 by Hoot1988

[Spokesperson 0]

Keynes was not neo-liberal, but it doesn't matter, his policies are just another method to make capitalism and exploitation more robust. Then when the working class is weaker and the immediate crisis has softened keynesianists advocate neo liberal policies. Keynes, Hayek etc are the same pro-capitalist shit.'

No one is forced to work at a firm as a firm is not forced to hire people that goes against their ethos.

That's BS. People need to eat, and in order not to starve or go unhealthy they have to work for some kind of owner. The only freedom there is is to choose owners (and not even that in many cases, unemployment is an effect of the system). You neo-liberals are stuck in some dope cloud far away from reality.

[NoRailgunner 0]

The socialism and communism in the past didn't succeed either.

Economic interests, political visions and the human factor don't go hand in hand together.

Maybe the 24th century will start with a much better system... ;)

[vilas 477]

Working slower and having more employees to pay would mean their products cost more triggering inflation, inflation tends to result in increased wages which inturn affects product cost and increases inflation further. You would then be in a vicious inflationary cycle.

have you watched The Inside Job ? some corporate bosses earn 400 000 000 USD !!!

when i worked in factory 10 years ago

people earned ca. 850 PLN (270 USD) and due to hard country situation (large unemployment, long hours of work) boss of company was making ca. 100 000 a month

whole ca. 80-90 people in factory taken together earned LESS than he alone

!!!!

whole people (ca. 90 * 1000 would give 90 000, right ???)

company had big profits (it was told to be ca. 1.5 mln PLN by one accountant) , but because of large unemployment rate in country guy was sucking blood of workers

company had big profits, but it was over 20% unemployment

from this guy salary those people could earn TWICE and still he would have 50 000 (cost of living in my city can be 2000, 3000 ) but he wanted summer house made of heban

do you know that in Poland (poor country, big unemployment) Ferrari company has very big sales of "full option" cars ???

Poland, Russia are told by Ferrari to be very good market (compare to people earning 400 Euro)

simply... some 0.01% have 500 000 monthly and want to buy jets and helicopters and have 4 homes in French riviera

Greece, Spain, i hope more and more , cause i wanna finally have my own flat , i work since 10 years after graduation and still have no credit ability and it pisses me off totally

Edited May 24, 2011 by vilas

[Spokesperson 0]

There are no other systems logically. Either the means of production are owned by the workers or by some private owners.

Socialism worked better for the workers than capitalism, and that's what counts if you are a worker. But of course eastern europe has always been behind and due to its economic geography it may never get ahead of the west no matter the system.

Edited May 24, 2011 by Spokesperson

[st_dux 26]

But of course eastern europe has always been behind and due to its economic geography it may never get ahead of the west no matter the system.

And you don't think this has anything to do with the USSR's failed experiment with "communism"? The only time that "socialism" has worked in history is when it has been overlaid with an economic model that is essentially market-based. Attempts to forcibly destroy the market system have always resulted in tragedy, Mao's "Great Leap Forward" being the quintessential example of this.

You're not wrong in your assessment that capitalism leads to exploitation, or that most people really don't have much choice when it comes to work. In theory they do, but in reality, they don't. But exploitation didn't start with capitalism, and it won't end if capitalism ends. Exploitation is an essential quality of life; all life exploits what it can in one way or another. As long as life exists, this will be the case.

[VanhA-ICON 11]

As this is a european politics thread what are peoples thoughts on the bail outs?

I sort of understand it's necessity but still... It's the banks and corrupt governments and officials that caused this and now I must pay?

The Greeks are already on the streets and it's hard to convince them to give up their ludicrous benefits and bonuses..

The Portuguese on the other hand seem more sensible and many voices from the street level think that they should handle it themselves instead of IMF to the rescue.

I see dark clouds in the horizon and I assure you it ain't the bloody Grimsvotn...

:j:

[Hans Ludwig 0]

But of course eastern europe has always been behind and due to its economic geography it may never get ahead of the west no matter the system.

Estonia’s economic freedom score is 75.2, making its economy the 14th freest in the 2011 Index. Its overall score is 0.5 point higher than last year as a result of significant improvements in monetary and labor freedom. Estonia is ranked 5th out of 43 countries in the Europe region, and its overall score is well above the regional and world averages.

Flexibility and openness have given Estonia’s small economy an impressive capacity to adjust to external shocks. The non-financial private sector reacted quickly to the challenging economic environment in 2009 with wage cuts and swift employment adjustments facilitated by a new labor law. Sound economic policies, grounded in a strong commitment to economic freedom, have ensured high levels of investment and entrepreneurial activity.

Although Estonia scores well in most of the 10 economic freedoms, government spending remains relatively high. Public finance management would benefit from longer-term budget balancing goals, clearer coordination between central and local governments, and better targeting of social benefits. The debt burden is quite low and has not undermined the country’s long-term economic competitiveness.

SOURCE:

http://www.heritage.org/index/country/estonia

Edited May 25, 2011 by Hans Ludwig

[Spokesperson 0]

Socialism in the east worked well despite of the unavoidable historical and geo political conditions.

It is correct that exploitation didn't start by capitalism, it has been present since the times of pure slavery. But under socialism the fruits of labor go to the workers and society only. During capitalism private owners get their share in the form of profits (which is substantial). If there were no police or army there would be no parasites, but the state and its laws are providing the necessary infrastructure of capitalist exploitation. Without a police force the capitalists would be forced out and their means of production confiscated by those who actually work.

@Hans Ludwig: You got to be kidding me. Estonia and the baltic countries are close to collapse after the neo-liberal bubble of speculation burst. Large parts of the population are not allowed to vote. Almost 20% are unemployed. That's what happens when you cease to produce and do "services" and speculation which "produce wealth". Bourgeois economics are inherently flawed. Only labor can produce wealth.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Socialism in the east worked well despite of the unavoidable historical and geo political conditions.

It is correct that exploitation didn't start by capitalism, it has been present since the times of pure slavery. But under socialism the fruits of labor go to the workers and society only.

This was proven false by economical and historical facts. It only leaded to an exploitation of the mass by the Apparatchik class of the communist regims, with the overall wealth of those countries collapsing. The eastern communist regims disappeared by their own fail, and by the absolute lack of liberty.

Besides economics, you should learn history too.

[Spokesperson 0]

The USSR was dissolved from above, and not below. The largest protests seen since the revolution 1917 occured in 1993 where people demanded the USSR back. The neo-liberals raised the wages for the army and rolled out tanks on the streets. Up to 2000 people were killed, the parliament shelled with artillery, and congressmen shot. That's what happens in a "democracy" when liberalism is at stake.

Stalin and others earned less than miners.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

I sort of understand it's necessity but still... It's the banks and corrupt governments and officials that caused this and now I must pay?

You will pay. The most grandiose asset & pension/retirement fund looting in the history of the Holy Roman Empire/Western civilisation.

Even if you physically do not hand over the cash in the form of taxes, you will pay through the collapse of the standard of living. And I'm going to be here to profit from it. I really wish it wasn't so, I really do - alas, you can not reason with the masses, with a single person you can, but not the crowd - never.

[VanhA-ICON 11]

And I'm going to be here to profit from it. .

Well, at least toast one pint for me, lol.

The living standards have been plummeting for a while now. I used to have approx 50€ left from previous wage when the new one came but now it's all gone to bills and food just 1 week after paycheck.

Maybe I could put up a web link on some US site with "donate" paypal link and put up a story where I gave all my possessions away waiting for the rapture...

Every cent counts.

[st_dux 26]

Without a police force the capitalists would be forced out and their means of production confiscated by those who actually work.

This is where would-be proletarian revolutionaries such as yourself depart with reality and enter into a world of pure idealism. Without a police force, the means of production would be confiscated by those with the biggest guns, not the workers. A majestic workers' paradise, where everyone gets their "fair share" and is allowed to live a life free from exploitation, is not possible. Attempts to create such a situation lead only to an increase in violence and decrease in overall wealth.

[daikan 1]

Actually, the solution to the current economic crisis might turn out to be pretty simple and is even realistically achievable without a destructive revolution and/or total collapse of the system. It is outlined in a couple of initiatives and reform groups currently being worked on in some European countries (UK, Germany and Switzerland from which I know of):

http://www.positivemoney.org.uk/how-it-works/

http://www.monetative.de/?page_id=71

http://www.monetative.ch

This might be our last chance to overturn the neo-liberal paradigm based on the flawed dogmatic belief that markets automatically lead to optimal results whenever they are allowed to operate without interference. An idea that in the long run has proven to generate nothing but a huge bubble consisting of debt, grotesque social inequalities and - ultimately - recession.

Edited May 25, 2011 by daikan

[ProfTournesol 956]

The USSR was dissolved from above, and not below. The largest protests seen since the revolution 1917 occured in 1993 where people demanded the USSR back. The neo-liberals raised the wages for the army and rolled out tanks on the streets. Up to 2000 people were killed, the parliament shelled with artillery, and congressmen shot. That's what happens in a "democracy" when liberalism is at stake.

Stalin and others earned less than miners.

Funny. It's like reading the Pravda again.

[Spokesperson 0]

This is where would-be proletarian revolutionaries such as yourself depart with reality and enter into a world of pure idealism. Without a police force, the means of production would be confiscated by those with the biggest guns, not the workers. A majestic workers' paradise, where everyone gets their "fair share" and is allowed to live a life free from exploitation, is not possible. Attempts to create such a situation lead only to an increase in violence and decrease in overall wealth.

Now you assume things. I'm all for a police force, my point was to show that the police force among many other things has the role of being a system preserver. Liberal capitalism relies on force and violence just like any other system. The difference under socialism is that the police works in the interests of the working class.

Funny. It's like reading the Pravda again.

What are you implying?

Check for yourself, CBS, CNN etc:

Parliament under fire. Liberal tanks on the streets firing on people:

[Hans Ludwig 0]

The difference under socialism is that the police works in the interests of the working class.

Why should it only work for one class? Capitalism allows all the classes to work with each other to obtain what value judgements they might have.

Someone with wealth can invest that money into CDs, money market, stocks and bonds and IRAs. That money is then either loaned out to others that need credit to purchase a mortgage, college education for their kids, a new vehicle or maybe they wanted to plan a vacation. Since some classes can't pay for things in cash, credit comes in hand to help them obtain whatever it is they desire. While that money is being loaned out by the bank, the person with wealth is having his money grow with inflation that is compounded daily, weekly, monthly, yearly or quarterly. This means the money supply is growing larger and can benefit even more people.

Now if that money is going strictly to capital, then it's creating a risk for business managers to try and calculate and then go forward with buying capital tools, research, hiring and building manufacturing plants or stores, whatever it is that they need to grow or be competitive in today's market.

Since every class is helping to create competition through purchasing decisions or through capital investment, and everyone is a consumer, the consumer will win through better quality products or cheaper products or both.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

EU's Damanaki tells Greece euro membership at risk

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/25/greece-euro-idUSATH00610520110525

ATHENS | Wed May 25, 2011 9:25am EDT

May 25 (Reuters) - Greece must take tough measures to deal with its debt crisis or it will have to return to the drachma, the EU's Fisheries Commissioner Maria Damanaki said on Wednesday.

"I am forced to speak openly," Damanaki was quoted as saying in a statement by the semi-official Athens News Agency. "Either we agree with our lenders to a programme of tough sacrifices ... or we return to the drachma."

Damanaki, appointed by the ruling socialists, said Greece's biggest postwar achievement, joining the euro, was at risk and all else was secondary. (Reporting by George Georgiopoulos)

Oops. Let them have their own fiat, it's going to be devalued against the Euro the second it goes official, and then they start printing, hyper-inflating away the external exposure to European debt. Liabilities gone - so is Greek standard of living, if there ever was one: they will never see a loan ever again, not at 3% interest, at least.

Remind me, why were these banana republics accepted into the EU? Play by the club's rules, or get the fuck out.

Edited May 25, 2011 by Iroquois Pliskin

[Prydain 1]

This happened because of blind sided politicians. They forget the troubles that could be caused in order to accommodate. People might want the EU project to be completed but the lack of caution in order to get to that point has damaged us all, even if we don't use the Euro.

Ireland and Greece are two pits of sadness and poverty because their politicians felt that the Euro would give them the security to lend amazing amounts of money and their selfish actions should be punished in some way. Throwing them out won't work though and come 2020 they would be joining once again.