European Politics Thread.

[txalin 2]

Take a look, shot taken in Madrid:

http://www.elpais.com/fotogaleria/Protesta/Movimiento/elpgal/20110517elpepunac_3/Zes/2

wow

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Take a look, shot taken in Madrid:

http://www.elpais.com/fotogaleria/Protesta/Movimiento/elpgal/20110517elpepunac_3/Zes/2

wow

What are they protesting, government austerity? :( Greece redux. VanhA-ICON, if EU falls, you will see another world war within the decade.

[Hans Ludwig 0]

What are they protesting, government austerity? :( Greece redux. VanhA-ICON, if EU falls, you will see another world war within the decade.

I hope there is a 4th Reich and they bring back the King Tiger. I would so sign-up to be a panzer commander and drive that bad boy around, blowing stuff up for no other reason than watching stuff get blown up.

Afterwards, I would party my a$$ of at one of those awesome Bavarian Oktoberfest things and sing Ein Prosit until I fall down. Wait, I'd probably wouldn't get plastered because I would want to hit on all the hotties wearing those Drindles (however you spell it). German girls are soooo hot. But they can be soooo mean and emotionless.

Then again, I need my watered down American beer, because that cough syrup they have is just not going to cut it for me.

Edited May 21, 2011 by Hans Ludwig

[jagheterjan 10]

4th reich won't happen, mate. Get over it.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

4th reich won't happen, mate. Get over it.

One could argue, it already did happen. Google "Operation Paperclip". ;) We're just waiting for the rest of the world to acknowledge it.

[Hoot1988 0]

4th reich won't happen, mate. Get over it.

There is conjecture that the 4th Reich is actually the EU.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1179902/Revealed-The-secret-report-shows-Nazis-planned-Fourth-Reich--EU.html

I know its the Mail, but give it a read.

The Spanish protests are scary. It does scare me how people just cannot face economic realities and would rather live in their own world where money grows on trees.

Edited May 21, 2011 by Hoot1988

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Hoot1988, doesn't matter which Reich it is, but it's a Reich alright. ;) I'd say United States of America comes close to that definition, just look how much the Western world accomplished with the US being the military arm of the 'Reich'. If Reich is defined as a global order, then it's not here, yet, and would most likely be a comprise of five or six regional supranational unions, like the EU.

[ProfTournesol 956]

There is conjecture that the 4th Reich is actually the EU.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1179902/Revealed-The-secret-report-shows-Nazis-planned-Fourth-Reich--EU.html

I know its the Mail, but give it a read.

Stop reading tabloids. Read real press instead.

Edited May 21, 2011 by ProfTournesol

[Prydain 1]

Anybody who references the Daily Mail should have their right to vote taken away.

[vilas 477]

The Spanish protests are scary. It does scare me how people just cannot face economic realities and would rather live in their own world where money grows on trees.

at least Spanish people and Greek have balls

it's not we who made crisis, but rich greed banksters and companies that gave production to China (causing unemployment here)

so what scares me, that other nations not stand against regime of banksters

if more people would stand against, we could live better, look at movie "Inside Job" it tells all

few have private jets, 400 000 000 USD every year, millions gets poverty or unemployment and zero chance to live in own (not parents) flat after some years of work after graduating universities (look at huge emigration of Poles, 4-5% of population left country, it is very huge percentage, people graduated, had MSc. MoA and ... no chance to job , i even knew PhD without job (railway technic phd cause i am railway enginner MSc myself and zero chance for job that allow to buy even small flat ) )

there is no free economy, there is NWO and lies,

if you are graduated - you should get good payment job,

i am happy that Grece and Spain beging in EU some things, i hope it will go much further to get rid from NWO and banksters who earn hundred milions dollars

we have unemployment because some of rich company owners give production to China, and in Lodz city there is no production of shirt or trousers

all is made in China

it is problem , because of it "money don't grow on trees" - cause someone taken seed and cut our trees

you cannot expect growing anything on trees, when trees are cut down

it's up from us, young, if we will live in better chance world, on in third-world when few % small group has 90% of all goods

or in world with large middle class like it should be (or was in West EU decade ago)

Edited May 22, 2011 by vilas

[Hoot1988 0]

so what scares me, that other nations not stand against regime of banksters

if more people would stand against, we could live better, look at movie "Inside Job" it tells all

few have private jets, 400 000 000 USD every year, millions gets poverty or unemployment and zero chance to live in own (not parents) flat after some years of work after graduating universities (look at huge emigration of Poles, 4-5% of population left country, it is very huge percentage, people graduated, had MSc. MoA and ... no chance to job , i even knew PhD without job (railway technic phd cause i am railway enginner MSc myself and zero chance for job that allow to buy even small flat ) )

there is no free economy, there is NWO and lies,

if you are graduated - you should get good payment job, i am happy that Grece and Spain beging in EU some things, i hope it will go much further to get rid from NWO and banksters who earn hundred milions dollars

we have unemployment because some of rich company owners give production to China, and in Lodz city there is no production of shirt or trousers

all is made in China

I am a British Graduate with an MSc (Econ) and I am struggling to get a job. I'd quite like to try and get funding for a PhD but I don't think that would help my employment prospects at all. In the UK, and elsewhere probably, we have a problem where there are far to many degrees floating around that are useless in any job market, devaluing the value of university education. In an ideal world people with degrees would just be able to walk out of university and into a job, but we do not live in an ideal world. For Spain going down the Portugal route of avoiding home administered austerity then having the EU bail you out and imposing austerity really isn't going to solve matters any faster.

I agree about the manufacturing, but that has been largely caused by previous governments increasing tax rates on manufacturing industries (in the UK anyway) and pushing them to flee oversees. The only way that is going to be fixed is by a painful rebalancing of the nations economy, burning red tape, cutting taxes, devaluing the currency and making us competitive again. Poland is lucky that you are not a Eurozone nation.

I've watched half of inside job, think Ill watch the rest of it tonight. The US is one of the worst countries in the world for "social mobility" so that really doesn't surprise me. The best we can do in Europe is try to clamp down on tax avoidance and regulate the banking sector much better.

at least Spanish people and Greek have balls

it's not we who made crisis, but rich greed banksters and companies that gave production to China (causing unemployment here)

I do disagree here, the bankers messed up by giving out loans to those who could not afford them in the first place and selling on the debt into hedge funds made profits off it, and should be punished for that. But I think we all need to accept some responsibility that we all became addicted to credit and didn't question where that money came from in the first place and whether we could afford it at all.

NWO, you mean New World Order? The rise of the BICs?

Edited May 22, 2011 by Hoot1988

[vilas 477]

looking at your birthdate -you are young

but imagine anger of people who for example are 10 years older, work since 10 years and their job do not allow them to buy/hire flat alone

and your country has other situation, but my country turned from safe-economical for employee to hell for employee

i really hope that Spain and Greece will spread more

i have enough of situation that me and many of my friends working for 10 years do not have own flat (although all are MSc)

in socialism flat was given after queue 15 years

now... even if 10, 15, 20 years will pass - you cannot have it (and need to live with parents or hire and have no money for any joy, new PC, new camera etc. )

i really have enough and hope that someday Europe will stand

it cannot be this way, that someone has 400 000 000 USD year

it cannot be

NWO - yeah, i watching it on and on on many YT movies from across the world

Edited May 22, 2011 by vilas

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

NWO, you mean New World Order? The rise of the BICs?

A global business order, where you compete with slave labour from China & India to the point where the quality of living in the West rapidly diminishes, while some people on the opposite side of the deal are promoted to a 14 hour work day, instead of 16.

Some calamity is bound to happen, long before people realise the significance of overpopulation and demand a solution.

[Hans Ludwig 0]

I love how some of you try and take the moral high ground and then demonize "corporations" and the Chinese and Indians. I'm happy they have jobs. Why shouldn't they be able to have jobs?

If you don't like them having jobs, then lower your taxes to make it possible for people to start companies in Europe and compete against countries with cheap labor. But that wont happen until people stop believing they are entitled to to other peoples' money.

[SFG 1]

My heart goes out to you guys trying to find jobs. It took me a year here in the states. Not having a job really messes with your mind... hang in there.

[Hoot1988 0]

I love how some of you try and take the moral high ground and then demonize "corporations" and the Chinese and Indians. I'm happy they have jobs. Why shouldn't they be able to have jobs?

If you don't like them having jobs, then lower your taxes to make it possible for people to start companies in Europe and compete against countries with cheap labor. But that wont happen until people stop believing they are entitled to to other peoples' money.

I agree. This might sound very Offensive-Realist, but its all about survival of the fittest between countries and their people. We now need to be able to compete with countries that have traditionally had lower standards of living than we do if we are to compete in the global markets. That is going to be difficult for people in Europe after decades of dependence on the Welfare state.

Also, really like your sig. Always been a fan of Friedrich Hayek myself, the Austrian school has far more relevance today then Keynesian.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

I love how some of you try and take the moral high ground and then demonize "corporations" and the Chinese and Indians. I'm happy they have jobs. Why shouldn't they be able to have jobs?

If you don't like them having jobs, then lower your taxes to make it possible for people to start companies in Europe and compete against countries with cheap labor. But that wont happen until people stop believing they are entitled to to other peoples' money.

Hans, what von Mises had to say about this? This is the pure free market; I am not against it, where did I leave a hint of demonisation of the system du jour? ;)

The system is somewhat artificial, though, it does serve its purpose - bringing about the final solutions for a truly global society. At this point, it wouldn't be as simple as lowering taxes and providing tax breaks to corporations, the processes are too far gone, and will not be stopped. Would you object, though, if real tangible assets had become a victim of a fractional reserve system in the Western world? In other words, hot money pushing paper in a Ponzi scheme, which leaves the 'taxpayer' holding the bag, subsequently bringing about a bond market crisis, that you're seeing manifesting today in the form of Greece (2yr bonds at 24%), Spain et cetera.

That's the only problem I have, that I didn't get to ride the wave of MBS & CDO fraud. ;) Joking

Edited May 23, 2011 by Iroquois Pliskin

[Hans Ludwig 0]

My heart goes out to you guys trying to find jobs. It took me a year here in the states. Not having a job really messes with your mind... hang in there.

You can say that again. It's more depressing when you find out someone with a GED and no experience beat you out of a position. Their rational is that the guy with the GED would be around and not jump ship to a better paying job. While I can see that view, it makes me wonder what is the point in having a college degree.

Hans, what von Mises had to say about this? This is the pure free market; I am not against it, where did I leave a hint of demonisation of the system du jour? ;)

It just seems people on the left and right are way too quick to blame the Chinese and Indians. Don't get me wrong, I'm hating but not hating.

I would be more than happy to go into detail, but the Communism fanboy known as Villas will type some unintelligible response that takes someone with 40 years of experience of reading hieroglyphics to understand. I just don't want to be bothered explaining why Keynesian economics has failed us, but most people don't even know what that is or how it effects their wallet.

Also, really like your sig. Always been a fan of Friedrich Hayek myself, the Austrian school has far more relevance today then Keynesian.

Yeah, I find Austrian economics so easy to understand. I believe that's why it's becoming more and more popular and mainstream. It's like how Christianity was before and after the Bible was made available to the masses.

Edited May 23, 2011 by Hans Ludwig

[Prydain 1]

Also, really like your sig. Always been a fan of Friedrich Hayek myself, the Austrian school has far more relevance today then Keynesian.

You have Niall Ferguson in your sig, a guy who seems to be a bit of a Keynesian reference audio track on loop.

As for von Hayek, he always reminds me of reading the George Orwell review The Road to Serfdom. Both men were effected by war, socialism wasn't a key point of note for WW1 yet von Hayek was effected enough to champion against it. Orwell suffered from socialism in the Spanish Civil War and he came out as a champion for it. I think Orwell gets it right at the end of his review.

Capitalism leads to dole queues, the scramble for markets, and war. Collectivism leads to concentration camps, leader worship, and war. There is no way out of this unless a planned economy can somehow be combined with the freedom of the intellect, which can only happen if the concept of right and wrong is restored to politics.

Both of these writers are aware of this, more or less; but since they can show no practicable way of bringing it about the combined effect of their books is a depressing one.

Which is my view. No side is right or better, just more suited to different collectives and, in a way, if your seeing yourself as a collective, your a socialist.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

It just seems people on the left and right are way too quick to blame the Chinese and Indians. Don't get me wrong, I'm hating but not hating.

I would be more than happy to go into detail, but the Communism fanboy known as Villas will type some unintelligible response that takes someone with 40 years of experience of reading hieroglyphics to understand. I just don't want to be bothered explaining why Keynesian economics has failed us, but most people don't even know what that is or how it effects their wallet.

Well, that's their problem - let them protest some more, 'jobs' aren't coming back. I'd rather they be replaced by automation & robotisation, than manual slave labour of those unfortunate to be born in such society (world?). Communism - the control of the capital by the state, or private (state-owned in part) corporations effectively. I, myself, love communism so much, that I'm thinking about buying shares in a privatisation venture out in Bolivia, or India, which embarks on the cornering of the drinkable water, rainwater included. Yes, privatisation of water.

No! vilas would argue, communism is abolition of private property and the state to free Mankind. vilas, reduce global population to around half a billion people, chip them, introduce a cashless currency, institute a 2.1 child policy globally per family, dig out those starship projects of the '60s & '70s, and then, only then, will we talk about this concept of 'communism'. ;)

You have Niall Ferguson in your sig, a guy who seems to be a bit of a Keynesian reference audio track on loop.

Fiat is there to serve us, only to die one day, to be replaced by a newer, more efficient fiat, encompassing an ever greater number of people using said fiat for the benefit of trade. USD is one example, one of the best system around since the Roman times.

Edited May 23, 2011 by Iroquois Pliskin

[vilas 477]

the most efficient from economic point of view is slavery

so free market is anti-human bullshit

if someone looks only at efficiency, he not see human, his life and conditions of living

thats why those big corporations are biggest enemy of humankind , cause moved production from Europe to China making here unemployment

work is for human, not human for work

work is for people to have family, joy, holidays, flat, wear , not for other purposes like big company profit of 0.001 % of humankind

Edited May 23, 2011 by vilas

[VanhA-ICON 11]

Well, a friend of mine made some sense when I was complaining to him the ever rising costs of living.

"You just have to adjust your living to the current income".

He was right.. sure I can't afford a new pc and such but at least I can provide my son with food and clothing and he is healthy.

In the end these are the only issues that truly matter.

The Bail Out tragedy can shift the balance in Europe and we could all end up living in gutters but until then it's best to enjoy the small things.

"All difficult things have their origin in that which is easy, and great things in that which is small."

Lao-Tzu

[Spokesperson 0]

It's all very easy:

Real wages have been almost constant for decades while productivity has increased thanks to new technology. I.e. the profits have risen enormously, but those who create them get nothing from it. The increase in profits has also led to an increase in loans, where the owners lend money to their workers (i.e. money representing their own labor is lent back to the creators).

There's more than enough money, the problem is the distribution of wealth. People who don't work, but who own get the largest part in the modern wage-slave system. And unless the wage-slaves overthrow their neo-liberal (Austrian school, Keynes and so on) masters they will continue to live in slavery. Meanwhile anti-worker neo-liberals like Hans-Ludwig propose higher retirement ages, lower wages and longer work days. Meaning that workers pay for the mistakes of their owners and of the system itself.

Edited May 23, 2011 by Spokesperson

[ProfTournesol 956]

Real wages have been almost constant for decades while productivity has increased thanks to new technology. I.e. the profits have risen enormously, but those who create them get nothing from it. The increase in profits has also led to an increase in loans, where the owners lend money to their workers (i.e. money representing their own labor is lent back to the creators).

There's more than enough money, the problem is the distribution of wealth. People who don't work, but who own get the largest part in the modern wage-slave system. And unless the wage-slaves overthrow their neo-liberal (Austrian school, Keynes and so on) masters they will continue to live in slavery. Meanwhile anti-worker neo-liberals like Hans-Ludwig propose higher retirement ages, lower wages and longer work days. Meaning that workers pay for the mistakes of their owners and of the system itself.

Keynes was neo liberal ? How long have you been to school ?

[vilas 477]

i have simple example from primary school math level

for making product X there is need of 1000 hours of work (w.h.)

but contract says it must be done in week

so accoring to labour codex:

1000/40 w.h. per week = 25 men needed

if you will raise their work for 1 hour :

1000/45 (9 w.h. daily) = 22.2

3 men gone unemployed

only lowering number of w.h. will make save jobs

and not allowing to move production by owners of concerns

cause they want to put us back to SLAVERY

cause only efficient is death-work-camp

no payment, just guard with machinegun

it is "liberalism and free market in minimalized cost of work"