USA Politics Thread - *No gun debate*

[nettrucker 142]

The past is the past doesn't make good alliances.

I'm having difficulty following your argumentation. By the third world countries you mean countries like Korea, Vietnam, Grenada?

Yea, that's not such a bad thing imo. I'd love my country to step up a little more...

Oh, I'm not so much into favoring one or another. I'm for arguments.

We can't the change the past . . . it is history . . . mankind never learned anything from the past anyway . . . period.

Read John Perkins book "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" Than you will know what I'm talking about . . . partly.

The current worldwide situation is very complex and dangerous . . . for not saying it's a mess. Do research and get some info from journalist which are not part of the mainstream media try to understand what's going on around you. it doesn't suffice to follow what's happening in the country you live in, you have to watch the whole world with attention. look I did my research and I believe that I have a pretty good idea of what is going on, but I won't tell. Do your own research and try to understand why things are happening the way they are.

[PELHAM 10]

We've propped up more dictators than we've deposed, and helped impose a bunch as well.

A quick head count tells me that's incorrect, are you sure you have evidence for that? As for propping up dictators well yes politics is a dirty game but the USSR and China are Olympic champions in that field.

[Fox '09 14]

A quick head count tells me that's incorrect, are you sure you have evidence for that? As for propping up dictators well yes politics is a dirty game but the USSR and China are Olympic champions in that field.

Except our foreign policy seems to be more geared towards the "My enemy, my friend, my enemy, my friend" approach in the last decades with Iran & Iraq.

Something I would think even Russia & China don't dabble in.

[PELHAM 10]

Except our foreign policy seems to be more geared towards the "My enemy' date=' my friend, my enemy, my friend" approach in the last decades with Iran & Iraq.

Something I would think even Russia & China don't dabble in.[/quote']

Iraq became an enemy when they invaded Kuwait, thats perfectly understandable, the whole world agreed on that?

Iran became an enemy when they held 52 American diplomats hostage for 444 days, the current situation between the US and Iran began with that incident.

If you think Russia and China don't dabble in such things or prop up more dictators you are spectacularly ill informed.

[whisper 0]

Russia & China (and any western govt, for that matter) doing wrong doesn't clean up USA record at all, I don't see the relevance of the argument.

[PELHAM 10]

Russia & China (and any western govt, for that matter) doing wrong doesn't clean up USA record at all, I don't see the relevance of the argument.

USA bashing is so popular and fashionable at the moment. The stories and claims get more desperate and absurd every day. I like to point out that while the USA isn't pure, it certainly doesn't have have the bad records of many others. I don't follow fashion and I don't spread nonsense across these forums like many others do.

This, for example is untrue:

We've propped up more dictators than we've deposed,l

Edited February 28, 2012 by PELHAM

[Serclaes 0]

We can't the change the past . . . it is history . . . mankind never learned anything from the past anyway . . . period.

Read John Perkins book "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" Than you will know what I'm talking about . . . partly.

Sure we can't change the past. But no, we do learn from it. That's how diplomatic relations degrade and improve, for example. I'm not saying NATO should stick together at any cost because they've been through the cold war. I'm just saying every partner shouldn't make an elephant out of a fly and balance the cost vs. the benefit. A cost for example could be to loose trust and support of that nation they're "ratting out" on.

The current worldwide situation is very complex and dangerous . . . for not saying it's a mess.

Indeed. And exactly that makes it so hard for me to classify actions as right or wrong.

Do research and get some info from journalist which are not part of the mainstream media try to understand what's going on around you. it doesn't suffice to follow what's happening in the country you live in, you have to watch the whole world with attention. look I did my research and I believe that I have a pretty good idea of what is going on, but I won't tell. Do your own research and try to understand why things are happening the way they are.

Well, if you did your research, I'll be glad to check out what you found. Until then I'm very satisfied with the news I get from different sources right now.

[Fox '09 14]

Iraq became an enemy when they invaded Kuwait, thats perfectly understandable, the whole world agreed on that?

Iran became an enemy when they held 52 American diplomats hostage for 444 days, the current situation between the US and Iran began with that incident.

If you think Russia and China don't dabble in such things or prop up more dictators you are spectacularly ill informed.

Understandable, but what ensued wasn't understandable. And there's more to our relationship with Iraq than that, and you know it.

As far as Iran, sure, it began with that incident but that doesn't erase the 50s.

Face it, we pick and choose goverment systems based upon how they favor us, and our business interests , not if they are democratic.

I'm not disputing how many dictators they've (China and Russia) propped up, that's someone else. I disputed that they have a blatantly hypocritical foreign policy. We're spreading democracy by supporting dictators, and when democracy comes to egypt we cry out about how the muslim brotherhood enters power.

Edited February 28, 2012 by Fox '09

[GRS 10]

I think the point is more to lay off only calling out the US. Let's face it, everyone sucks.

[nettrucker 142]

I think the point is more to lay off only calling out the US. Let's face it, everyone sucks.

I agree with you on that. I don't hate Americans or the USA I got a lot of friends there. It's just that I don't agree with the US foreign politics. Bush has put it in a very simple way. He said . . . "either you are with us or against us." It is not that simple in my opinion.

The American people are victims of the unsound actions of their own govenment.

Sure we can't change the past. But no, we do learn from it. That's how diplomatic relations degrade and improve, for example. I'm not saying NATO should stick together at any cost because they've been through the cold war. I'm just saying every partner shouldn't make an elephant out of a fly and balance the cost vs. the benefit. A cost for example could be to loose trust and support of that nation they're "ratting out" on.

Indeed. And exactly that makes it so hard for me to classify actions as right or wrong.

You should know inside yourself what is right and wrong, it should not be as hard as you think

Well, if you did your research, I'll be glad to check out what you found. Until then I'm very satisfied with the news I get from different sources right now.

I'm doing research now since 2001 and it is impossible to me, to resume just in a few words about my findings. It would take me a book to write. My apologies for that . . .but as I told you the situation is very complex. Moreover I am firmly convinced that you are more than capable to do it on your own. It just takes a long time to gather the info to connect the dots. I for myself am convimced, that not withstanding more than ten years of research, I barely scratched the surface.

Edited February 28, 2012 by nettrucker
added reply

[Fox '09 14]

I think the point is more to lay off only calling out the US. Let's face it, everyone sucks.

I live here though, I would like to try to fix my country. I can't do anything about the other countries.

[nettrucker 142]

I live here though' date=' I would like to try to fix my country. I can't do anything about the other countries.[/quote']

We have a lot of problems in common. Due to the enormous globalisation in the last two decades our economies are terribly entangled with each other. The financial crisis is all over the world and we are only at the beginning. we are facing the same enemies in the end.

[Serclaes 0]

You should know inside yourself what is right and wrong, it should not be as hard as you think

I got that far. I believe I have a pretty good moral compass. The problem is what seems to be right for one, is absolutely wrong for another, because different facts are weighted differently.

That reminds me of Joschka Fischers speech in front of his party in 99 (when Kosovo was getting hot). He would start his speech and people of his party would shout "Warmonger" because he, as minister for foreign affairs had Germany go into the Kosovo. His answer was "You call me warmonger, but you would nominate Milosevic for a peace nobel price".

I think it's too easy to judge something by the bad aspects only, I try to see it as a whole. And that's why I disagree with your earlier one sided post.

The U.S. had a few fuck ups in their foreign policy since WW2, I grant that. I think even before there was a fuck up where they wouldn't actively go to war against Germany earlier, but hey.

For most of the wars the U.S. were in, I understand why they did it. Anti communism action (Korea, Vietnam, Grenada), anti american actions (Panama), anti terrorism actions (afghanistan, iraq). But I realise I might be missing some facts, which I would welcome to have and then reevaluate.

[nettrucker 142]

In that case I can only recommend to you to read a couple of books. The first one I already pointed out is John Perkins "Confessions

of an econoomic hitman" Another one is Naomi Klein's book "The shock Doctrine". Do some research on power structures especially political and economic power structures.

[Serclaes 0]

Thanks, I'll look into them.

[Fox '09 14]

Lame. This super Tuesday isn't very exciting. This republican primary was like hillary vs obama in 08, beating each other - and the party - to a pulp.

I don't think Ron Paul will net many delegates in Virgina.. I read somewhere it was only 3 despite getting 41% of the vote.

[GRS 10]

The glorious two party system at its best. I hope he runs third party, and destroys the competition. We need it.

[Fox '09 14]

The glorious two party system at its best. I hope he runs third party, and destroys the competition. We need it.

I'm afraid with the citizens united ruling it will be impossible. Forget how impossible Nader in 2000 was. the debate commission is bought and paid for by the "two party dictatorship". How can anyone win if they're not on the debate? It would be very hard for ron paul, let alone anyone get on the 3rd party ticket, especially with all the money against him.

[Tonci87 163]

The industry in the US will never allow a more than two party sytem, two partys are much easier to control than 3 or 4.

[walker 0]

Hi all

A prime example of imaginary friend politics:

...As Romney celebrated in Boston, Barack Obama phoned to congratulate him on his victory and convey his hopes that they would have a clean fight for the presidency, before adding: "Tell me the story about God's message being at the bottom of a hat."

The former Massachusetts governor then explained how in 1823, Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, met an angel called Moroni who told him that nearby were buried some golden plates, a pair of spectacles and a 'seer stone'.

P

President Obama then interrupted briefly to ask: "Sorry, did you say he was called 'Moroni'?"

Governor Romney said 'yes' and then explained how eventually Moroni allowed Smith to dig up the golden plates and then translate them - from a previously unknown form of 'Egyptian hieroglyphics' - by using the spectacles while staring at the stone, which he had placed at the bottom of a hat.

After a five second pause, President Obama said: "And that's what you believe?" ..

As always follow the link to the original text in full

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/obama-asks-to-romney-explain-the-origins-of-mormonism-again-201203074979/

You could not make this shit up... Oh wait a minute some one did! Snake oil sales men have been living off this kind of imaginary friend con for millennia; some people are dumber than a bag of spanners.

Oh and the reason Ron Paul is in the race is to pander to and lock in the racist vote and fool the libertarians into voting for the republican candidate rather than the libertarian one. It is all about herding the voter sheep through the voting machines to be shorn. Bhaaa bhaaa bhaaa.

Kind regards walker

Edited March 7, 2012 by walker

[Fox '09 14]

Hi all

A prime example of imaginary friend politics:

As always follow the link to the original text in full

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/obama-asks-to-romney-explain-the-origins-of-mormonism-again-201203074979/

You could not make this shit up... Oh wait a minute some one did! Snake oil sales men have been living off this kind of imaginary friend con for millennia; some people are dumber than a bag of spanners.

Oh and the reason Ron Paul is in the race is to pander to and lock in the racist vote and fool the libertarians into voting for the republican candidate rather than the libertarian one. It is all about herding the voter sheep through the voting machines to be shorn. Bhaaa bhaaa bhaaa.

Kind regards walker

HAHA that is hilarious. It would be more believable if it wasn't written like a fiction book, and they used "President Obama". Using his name makes him look like a candidate.

Well, I won't speak for the racist comments under his name but he does do well in mobilizing the most vocal minority. Most of the country is progressive in their views if you look at the polls on issues, like OWS, progressive taxing, and so forth. The tea baggers don't get too much love though, their ratings seem to have always been pretty low, especially when their candidates decided to be financial terrorists and try to default on the debt.

[sudayev 27]

Hi, have you guys heard about Obama's impeachment over Libya?

http://www.infowars.com/media-cover-up-of-obama-impeachment-exposed/

Direct YT video.

Share the vid on many ways, because you won't hear it from the media.

[PELHAM 10]

Yep and it falls into that massive grey area called the US Constitution (Declaration of War)and the division of powers between the legislative branches.

At the centre of this is the War Powers Resolution. The Office of the President has for many terms declared this resolution unconstitutional because of the Presentment Clause and they have a valid point about that. However the will of Congress can't simply be ignored because the resolution was passed with a 2/3rds majority. So Presidents seem to defer to it under protest. The problem is this bad situation has been allowed to continue for for 39 years and leads to much confusion as the legality over military action ends up in legal arguments between Congress and the Office of the President.

I have studied it for a few hours and can't really tell if he acted illegally or not, it depends who's point of view you look at it from with reference to the Constitution which can be interpreted several different ways. He certainly pushed his luck too far and therfore has a case to answer. If this actually leads to a successful impeachment is anyones guess. I would not like to bet either way on this. Clinton got away with it but only after Congress implied support by agreeing funding. Congress didn't make that mistake this time so it does look like there will be a day in court to decide this.

Edited March 12, 2012 by PELHAM

[rangerpl 13]

Obama did not act illegally as Congress did not ask him to withdraw the troops. Congress doesn't have to consent to a troop deployment, they just have the right to forbid it should they choose to. In this case they didn't.

[froggyluv 2133]

Legalities aside, the critical undecided voter has little appetite for such measures in such times and would be politcal suicide for Republicans to attack from that direction now.