USA Politics Thread - *No gun debate*

[Takko 10]

Ok, lets see it this way: Everybody benefits from such programs.

Imagine you would need them yourself? Would you still call it marxistic?

Edited May 25, 2010 by Takko

[Scrub 0]

Ahhh. Relativistic? Not based on foundational truths of the US? This is the US political thread, after all. Please explain further, as I don't see the whole of your point. :)

Also, the 'community' is not the government. You cannot legislate kindness. Should someone help her? Yes. Should she accept responsibility for her condition? Absolutely. Should we all be permanenty burdened under law for her mistakes? Hell no. Help her up, point her in the right direction, and send her on her way. In the US, we are born equal, after that it is up to us, and the kindness of others, to make our own way. Like it or not, that is the law of our land, and after November, it will be even more free.

I edited the first post Takko, didn't under understand your first point until now :)

Alright. Edit again. Such programs are anathema to our self-direction, in the long run. They lead to the grey mud of entitlement. As that woman in her own words admitted and several people who agree with you, also agree that she was wrong.

I also agree that there are certain things that are self-evident.

Edited May 25, 2010 by Scrub

[ryguy 10]

So that qualifies you to not post citations or refute the links I gave you, which were all from think tanks?

1. Communication with a strong point in Public Relations with a minor in Marketing. University of Texas

2. Masters in Political Science University of Texas

3. Masters in Public Administration (WIP) University of Houston

Well then contact the author and ask him for his citations.

I tried posting in this thread before, but your head was taking up so much room I couldn't get in :annoy:.

Note to self: stop reading forum threads relating to politics! Doh!

Edited May 25, 2010 by ryguy

[sputnik monroe 102]

I don't take people that can't debate about something without resorting to baseless assumptions about someone because they have nothing to add to the debate seriously.

*cough*

I'm not even going to try to debate with you, because as where Hans put forth a cold, but yet reasonable argument, you just spout off the rhetoric of extreme right-wing militia groups. I've lived around people who've said the EXACT same things you have just said and they were neither smart nor cared about America. They only wanted to impose their radical beliefs on everyone else. If you want to have a serious debate that's fine, but don't come at me and everyone here with the views of groups that are classified in the US at the very least Hate Groups and at worst domestic terrorists.

I don't know, I just find some irony in all that. Well I need to get going, I disagree with Big Mac, so I suppose I should log out now and get back to my inbreeding, that and I don't want to be late to my militia meeting later so I can further work on my right wing terrorist attack plot . :j:

[Pease 10]

I'm a hypocrite? I'm not one of these people who want better bridges, smooth roads, a stronger military, etc. but then when it comes time to pay the bill they don't want to front the cash.

I bet just like everyone else you cashed in on your stimulus check. Don't lie a free $300-$600 check depending your income,that's a XboX360 at the very least, but also like a lot of other right wingers you railed against it too I bet, but when the money came in I bet you didn't rip up that check. That's a hypocrite.

The simple fact that when it comes down to uses people as examples right wingers never talk about the white trash. It's always poor blacks (In her case though I agree with you.) Mexicans,and what not.

Actually Big Mac, I never got a stimulus check, in fact I haven't even received a Tax return because it goes directly to paying off student loans. So I am guessing thats what happned to my "stimulus check" as well I also don't own an XBox 360, the only thing I own is a Computer, that I hand built, and most of the parts were either given to me for dirt cheap prices (through friends etc) or given to me for free, or I cannibalized my other pc (DVD Rom drives etc). Anything I own, I work hard for. I work 40-50 hours a week (more like 40 since they cut back my overtime). I drive a 1992 S10 pick up. I rent an apartment. I have a 32 inch Tube TV I got for free. I have been wearing the same pair of shoes for the past two years...those are my play shoes, I have a pair of boots I wear to work...I finally had to give in and buy a new pair...

So yeah, I am definitely waking in the money....not.

So don't assume to know me...I am against any socialist idea. I believe in having a 401K account. I hold the US Constitution to be the law of the land. Not what some dimwit in Washington wants it to be. That same dimwit needs to stop reaching into my fucking pocket and taking my money as well. If Ms I can't keep my damn legs closed and have 15 kids wants money, go get a fucking job like everyone else. And quit expecting the rest of US to take care ofher sorry ass. Goes for White Trash as well. Mexicans? They better be fucking legal or I'll boot their ass back over the damn border. I'll do their jobs...I have no problems getting my hands dirty. It seems people rather have me do it for them anyways (grandparents, friends of my grandparents etc)...I'm sick of the "they are doing jobs most American's aren't willing to do" that's bullshit. These companies just don't want to doll out any benefits.

So yea, I am against the Euro-trash Socialist ideas. I'll stick with good ole fashion American Kick Ass.

Edited May 26, 2010 by Pease

[sparks50 0]

So you want equal opportunities for everyone, except mexicans, who you want the government to stop from getting the opportunities that you have.

Edited May 26, 2010 by sparks50

[Baff1 0]

Actually Big Mac, I never got a stimulus check, in fact I haven't even received a Tax return because it goes directly to paying off student loans. So I am guessing thats what happned to my "stimulus check" as well I also don't own an XBox 360, the only thing I own is a Computer, that I hand built, and most of the parts were either given to me for dirt cheap prices (through friends etc) or given to me for free, or I cannibalized my other pc (DVD Rom drives etc). Anything I own, I work hard for. I work 40-50 hours a week (more like 40 since they cut back my overtime). I drive a 1992 S10 pick up. I rent an apartment. I have a 32 inch Tube TV I got for free. I have been wearing the same pair of shoes for the past two years...those are my play shoes, I have a pair of boots I wear to work...I finally had to give in and buy a new pair...

So yeah, I am definitely waking in the money....not.

So don't assume to know me...I am against any socialist idea. I believe in having a 401K account. I hold the US Constitution to be the law of the land. Not what some dimwit in Washington wants it to be. That same dimwit needs to stop reaching into my fucking pocket and taking my money as well. If Ms I can't keep my damn legs closed and have 15 kids wants money, go get a fucking job like everyone else. And quit expecting the rest of US to take care ofher sorry ass. Goes for White Trash as well. Mexicans? They better be fucking legal or I'll boot their ass back over the damn border. I'll do their jobs...I have no problems getting my hands dirty. It seems people rather have me do it for them anyways (grandparents, friends of my grandparents etc)...I'm sick of the "they are doing jobs most American's aren't willing to do" that's bullshit. These companies just don't want to doll out any benefits.

So yea, I am against the Euro-trash Socialist ideas. I'll stick with good ole fashion American Kick Ass.

Great post, really enjoyed that one.

[Scrub 0]

Great post, really enjoyed that one.

^What they both said^

Sparks50: What can I say? They are either Mexican Citizens, or United States Citizens. If they are Mexican Citizens they better have a good Visa, or they are Illegal- that means *against the law* for those who don't recognize the adjective in Illegal Immigrant. If they are US citizens, they have been naturalized, speak english, understand, agree to, and uphold our laws.

How are you thinking about this? Mexicans should be getting their own country back in order. That is what every country's citizens should be doing.

Pease_USVMC: There was a story on radio a few weeks back where ICE did a raid on a large chain grocery store, >100 illegals were taken out of there, in three days the store had all the positions filled -with local US citizens (who wouldn't do the work the illegals did... !?!?)

Crazy truth twisting liberals in our country...

Edited May 26, 2010 by Scrub

[Big Mac 19]

Actually Big Mac, I never got a stimulus check, in fact I haven't even received a Tax return because it goes directly to paying off student loans. So I am guessing thats what happned to my "stimulus check" as well I also don't own an XBox 360, the only thing I own is a Computer, that I hand built, and most of the parts were either given to me for dirt cheap prices (through friends etc) or given to me for free, or I cannibalized my other pc (DVD Rom drives etc). Anything I own, I work hard for. I work 40-50 hours a week (more like 40 since they cut back my overtime). I drive a 1992 S10 pick up. I rent an apartment. I have a 32 inch Tube TV I got for free. I have been wearing the same pair of shoes for the past two years...those are my play shoes, I have a pair of boots I wear to work...I finally had to give in and buy a new pair...

It seems like you're a hard working man, I commend you. I know what it's like to pinch a penny myself. I moved out at 18, it was hard but I made it. There were times where Campbell's chicken noodle soup was the only thing I ate for dinner.

So don't assume to know me...I am against any socialist idea.

Well you assumed to know me. FDR's "New Deal" was in some respects a socialist program and brought the US out of the Great Depression and made it stronger than it ever was before, do you believe we would have been better off without the New Deal program?

I hold the US Constitution to be the law of the land. Not what some dimwit in Washington wants it to be. That same dimwit needs to stop reaching into my fucking pocket and taking my money as well.

How would you want the government to make money then? Selling Girl Scout cookies? The things you take for granted are provided by the taxes you pay, things such as the US postal service, being able to call 911 when you have an emergency, running water (Here it's run by the city. I'm not sure exactly how it works where you are though.) and the Military. I'm sure there more things, but that will do for now. Now sometimes (more often than not.) the government spends it on bullshit programs like 5 million to save a rat from extinction. I can agree with you there.

If Ms I can't keep my damn legs closed and have 15 kids wants money, go get a fucking job like everyone else. And quit expecting the rest of US to take care of her sorry ass. Goes for White Trash as well. Mexicans? They better be fucking legal or I'll boot their ass back over the damn border. I'll do their jobs...I have no problems getting my hands dirty.

You'll be surprised that I agree with everything you just said. Where I think you're wrong is believing that everyone who benefits from these programs is like that woman. I agree with you about Mexicans, but I don't believe in booting them out. I believe in making illegals enlist if they want to continue living the US. If they have a condition that prevents service in the military then community service should be imposed on them. I do believe in earning your keep.

So yea, I am against the Euro-trash Socialist ideas. I'll stick with good ole fashion American Kick Ass.

It's thinking like that that will see this country fall behind everyone else. I'm not saying we should replace the white starts on the flag with red ones, but we have to be willing to embrace new ideas. Good ole fashion American Kick Ass isn't what it used to be. Edited May 26, 2010 by Big Mac

[Scrub 0]

Well you assumed to know me. FDR's "New Deal" was in some respects a socialist program and brought the US out of the Great Depression and made it stronger than it ever was before, do you believe we would have been better off with the New Deal program?

Bullshit you smoke and mirrors sniper. Look at the depression before that lasted only 1 year because of drastically lowered taxes and governmental spending, and ended up creating the roaring 20's. The great depression was lengthened by the governmental burden, it's programs are the same that is now crushing the Euro. Greece is just the start. All about entitlements that cannot be upheld.

Fall behind? Maybe, maybe if we kick all the socialist ideas out of our government we won't tumble WITH them in the next 5-10 years.

BTW: You still haven't clearly stated your stance. still dancing around that one?

Edited May 26, 2010 by Scrub

[Hans Ludwig 0]

It's thinking like that that will see this country fall behind everyone else. I'm not saying we should replace the white starts on the flag with red ones, but we have to be willing to embrace new ideas. Good ole fashion American Kick Ass isn't what it used to be.

Lets see here. I don't remember any Capitalist countries folding. But I can sure as hell name the USSR, and just recently Greece that folded.

lol You are the biggest troll of this forum.

BTW: You still haven't clearly stated your stance. still dancing around that one?

He has failed to cite his source when I called him out three times in the last few pages. So what makes you think he will answer you? He is just a troll doing what trolls do best: troll.

[sparks50 0]

^What they both said^

Sparks50: What can I say? They are either Mexican Citizens, or United States Citizens. If they are Mexican Citizens they better have a good Visa, or they are Illegal- that means *against the law* for those who don't recognize the adjective in Illegal Immigrant. If they are US citizens, they have been naturalized, speak english, understand, agree to, and uphold our laws.

How are you thinking about this?

Im wondering how a true libertarian can ever be in favour of blocking "competitors" out of the market by having a strong government decide who gets papers or not.

There are no borders in a true free market.

How would you want the government to make money then? Selling Girl Scout cookies? The things you take for granted are provided by the taxes you pay, things such as the US postal service, being able to call 911 when you have an emergency, running water (Here it's run by the city. I'm not sure exactly how it works where you are though.) and the Military. I'm sure there more things, but that will do for now. Now sometimes (more often than not.) the government spends it on bullshit programs like 5 million to save a rat from extinction. I can agree with you there.

How about donations? Without taxes you give people room and motivation to give.(at least I know I would be motivated) Naturally the government would have to radically turn down its operations to its basics(mainly police, justice system and military), but these are good things in my book. A weak government is a good government.

Edited May 26, 2010 by sparks50

[jakerod 254]

He has failed to cite his source when I called him out three times in the last few pages. So what makes you think he will answer you? He is just a troll doing what trolls do best: troll.

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

The discussion is on-topic and he is arguing his opinion which in my mind does not constitute "provoking other users" so he is not a troll.

[Big Mac 19]

BTW: You still haven't clearly stated your stance. still dancing around that one?

Seriously though, this is not the USA of the 1790s and a lot of what's in the constitution is out-dated. I personally believe that the great minds from all over this country need to get together with the politicians (from both parties.) to have a revised version that fits the America of today. Kinda like the Council of Nicaea was for the Bible.

In case you overlooked it before. That's my stance.

Fall behind? Maybe, maybe if we kick all the socialist ideas out of our government we won't tumble WITH them in the next 5-10 years.

Or maybe doing that will make America even weaker.

Bullshit you smoke and mirrors sniper. Look at the depression before that lasted only 1 year because of lowered taxes, and ended up creating the roaring 20's. The great depression was lengthened by the governmental burden, it's programs are the same that is now crushing the Euro. Greece is just the start. All about entitlements that cannot be upheld.

I could be wrong about this, but wasn't the depression caused by Wall Street stock brokers operating with little to no government regulations? I'm sure there many other causes, but that was the main one. The New Deal also prepared America for WW2 because when there wasn't any jobs the government created them such as, building tanks, airplanes, ships, etc. That is a form of socialism that helped America win a great victory.

How about donations? Without taxes you give people room and motivation to give. Naturally the government would have to radically turn down its operations to its basics(mainly police, justice system and military), but these are good things in my book. A weak government is a good government.

Then nobody would pay and we'd be broke, because people would use all the money that would have gone to taxes and spend it on themselves. The government at least understands the human propensity for greed. That's why we have taxes.

lol You are the biggest troll of this forum.

You always resort to insults when you lose a debate Hans? Edited May 26, 2010 by Big Mac

[Scrub 0]

Sparks50:

I need to go, so real quick: You keep changing the form of your argument, slipping around the one absolute thing that is our laws. "We are a nation of laws, not men" meaning we are solid in our actions, and legal system (until the progressives moved it from the absolutes of Constitutional law to the relativism of case law).

Our founders saw this nation as a living thing, it must discriminate between healthy and unhealthy actions, limiting only those things that were detrimental to those things proven good. Our nation started moral floundering with multiculturalism (not racist, it's about putting an immigrants native culture above that of the US), our hard work and earnings bled out with very low restricted free trade and globalization. We need to take stock in america again or our standard of living will continue to plummet, our creativity will be squandered. Your comments make me think of the tinfoil hat people that scream 'one world government'

Damn, just when it was getting good.

B.M. Gee, What caused all the down turns in history? Nationalize everything so it CAN'T flounder? lol you are acting like a such a socialist. There are many countries already ruined out there for you to have your fix. Why mess up mine? Ooo. I'll take a page from my left-leaning friend, Big Mac is guilty of SEDITION against the United States! lol

Good night. Give the anti-freedom brigade hell boys!

Edited May 26, 2010 by Scrub

[sparks50 0]

A bad law is a bad law. Thats my stance.

Edit: Ive been arguing for globalization(or at least economic globalization), so Im not sure what mean with the tinfoil hat people.

If there was an oppresive sort of international collaboration of politicians that worked against individual freedom, then sure Ill be against it(along with every other libertarian)

but I dont see this as being likely to happen anytime soon.

Our nation started moral floundering with multiculturalism (not racist, it's about putting an immigrants native culture above that of the US)

This is an incredible statement. Since when was the US not made from people bringing with them their own culture?

Edited May 26, 2010 by sparks50

[jakerod 254]

Your comments make me think of the tinfoil hat people that scream 'one world government'

In my experience it is the tinfoil hat people who don't want one world government. The tinfoil hat people are afraid of one world government

[Scrub 0]

A bad law is a bad law. Thats my stance.

A bad idea is a bad idea. So, you want all the corruption, drug murders, kidnappings, and social muck that has ruined THEIR country to flow freely into ours? We're barely keeping it from blowing up as it is. Naive at best to think only the law abiding workers will want to come across. You speak of anarchy. That's my stance.

Edit: had to add that if any living thing acted like you said, it would die quickly. A nation is a living thing.

Edit: Ive been arguing for globalization(or at least economic globalization), so Im not sure what mean with the tinfoil hat people.

Sorry, I mis-expressed myself. I did mean that to be a fearful statement. I don't want even LESS representation. I will never be a slave, as they are putting forth, claiming things like individual land ownership is bad. There will be war if this comes forth.

If there was an oppresive sort of international collaboration of politicians that worked against individual freedom, then sure Ill be against it(along with every other libertarian)

but I dont see this as being likely to happen anytime soon.

You? You don't see that as likely to happen? LOL really? you psychic? (sorry don't mean to be a ass, but you must grasp the terrible scale of your underestimation)

That is what the millions in the entire continent of EUROPE said about the Third Reich when Hitler marched!!!!

"Those who don't know their history are doomed to repeat it"

Just an old, out of date, sorely needing revision statement from a founder that is not in tune with modern times (NOT!) - and he's still absolutely correct.

You play BIS games, right? (rhetorical question) "When you see the dictator, it's already too late."

This is an incredible statement. Since when was the US not made from people bringing with them their own culture?

Misread or mischaracterized, not sure which. Reread what I said and compare it to the difference between a melting pot and a salad bar. Immigrants brought their culture over and enriched ours, very true. In their areas (they were birds of a feather that flocked together in part, finding comfort in the old ways) they freely practiced their language and culture. In public they were proud americans.. No hyphen. That is not how it is today.

Wake up. You are looking through some colored glasses that keeps you from seeing what is happening even RIGHT NOW.

Speaking of the 'old ways' This socialism is not at all new. We are, the USA. We are the hybrid, the dynamic interconnected populace that is the beacon of hope and freedom. We have gotten lazy and let liberal underminers get into the cracks, let people whose only goal is to destroy (like Big Mac), and not build up. The world may not like us, tough. Sit back in your lazy chair to 'earn' your entitlements, but I for one will be working for our individual freedoms.

Edited May 26, 2010 by Scrub

[Takko 10]

A bad idea is a bad idea. So, you want all the corruption, drug murders, kidnappings, and social muck that has ruined THEIR country to flow freely into ours? We're barely keeping it from blowing up as it is. Naive at best to think only the law abiding workers will want to come across. You speak of anarchy. That's my stance.

Like people in europe. A lot are afraid of immegration, etc. and at the end they're not right because

it brings no harm to the country.

We have gotten lazy

Then tell me the time where it was not like that.

Even in 1932 they used the same arguments like you do now.

[Big Mac 19]

Seems like you're losing the debate and you want to insult everyone around you. You run out of rhetoric and now resort to "My opinion is the only right opinion, the rest of you want to destroy America."

It's really quite sad that in one breath you speak of freedom and multiculturalism, but in the nest breath you talk about immigrants bringing their "corruption, drug murders, kidnappings, and social muck." Considering the first 3 are nothing new and we've had it pretty much since the beginning of this country. I find it amusing you cite that.

What do you mean by "Social muck" though? You against Mexicans celebrating cinco de mayo? Or the Chinese celebrating the Chinese new year? If that's the case you really don't understand the concept of "The melting pot"

In public they were proud americans.. No hyphen. That is not how it is today.

That's actually not quite true. Immigrants always identified with where they came from with just as much pride as where they are now. (i.e. Irish-Americans, Italian-Americans,etc.)

[sparks50 0]

In the 1920s Italian immigrants were met with pretty much the same fear and anger that the Mexicans are facing now. They came in large numbers, had an distinct culture and provided cheap workforce. the earliest Italian neighborhoods were overcrowded and crime-ridden.

Today its hard to imagine anything more American than an Italian-American.

Frank Sinatra, The Sopranos series, Versace brand, pizza etc...

[BronzeEagle 2]

I'll say this....I'm not an african-american. I never been to Africa in my life. I'm a Black American. My ancestors did not come from Africa....they were SOLD from Africa, by AFRICANS for that matter, so how could Africa claim what they rejected. I'll never let that happen, not by the blood of my ancestors for all they toiled will i call myself african. I eat American, was born in America, I'm a BLACK AMERICAN. We need to stop this crap about this american and that american. Either you're american or you're not.

[njmatrix 2]

In the 1920s Italian immigrants were met with pretty much the same fear and anger that the Mexicans are facing now. They came in large numbers, had an distinct culture and provided cheap workforce. the earliest Italian neighborhoods were overcrowded and crime-ridden.

Today its hard to imagine anything more American than an Italian-American.

Frank Sinatra, The Sopranos series, Versace brand, pizza etc...

Difference is most Italians came legally thru Ellis Island. They obeyed the laws and actually contributed to the growth and building of America. They didn't swim across the ocean and once here demand that we give them citizenship and rights and free money.

I know it's hard to fathom but Mexicans (and there's 50 other countries coming thru that side of the country besides mexicans) aren't picking grapes anymore and yelling "No Mas Uvas". They hold offices in city governments,have city worker jobs ect. they aren't the hidden minority anymore that businesses so easily took advantage of. You can go on any corner in L.A. and get "papels" as they like to call it and pretend your legal. You can find people in various DMV's across the country that for a couple hundred bucks will give you a legit identity (Bellgardens is well known for it in Los Angeles area). Now I know this because I grew up in East L.A. I went to various high schools in the area (South Gate High School, Jackson high) I grew up mainly in Bell/Huntington Park. Most of my friends are latino and most of them did it the legal way and worked their asses off and earned their citizenship.

I have nothing against Mexicans (which in reality "Mexicans" covers a TON of various countries that migrate into the Los Angeles area but Along with my latin friends have a problem with Pinche Mojados. See I and they have a problem when as a legal American citizen have to show 3 forms of ID to renew my registration or update my license but am supposed to feel bad because we want someone to have "papers" to prove they are legally here. I am white and have to do it EVERYTIME I renew my license or register a vehicle or renew my registration.

So I have no sympathy for law breakers. Along with that I think we should jail anyone who owns a business and uses illegal cheap labor. Not only is that against the law it should also be considered human trafficking. That would stop a big chunk of the illegals as well. I say we lock down all borders north and south and work thru who is here. Deport all the thieves,killers,rapists ect THEN look at who is left and see what and how we can either make them legal citizens or shorten the process to get them legal. But they all can't stay illegally nor should we reward breaking laws.

[sparks50 0]

Getting a green card today is a very long process because of bureaucracy, sometimes taking as long as 7, or even 20 years in the more extreme cases.

Consider this: does history look back favorably, or unfavorably on past immigration-control movements?

How will history, and your great-grandkids look at you? Will measures aimed at keeping folks out... Keep you in?

-Dave :)

[reconteam 19]

If my great-grandkids look at me poorly for my decisions I will boot up my robot body and kick their asses.

I can't fault Arizona here. The federal government has been doing so little about the issue that any good state government should have taken action. And now some have the nerve to suggest boycotting an entire state! Bah.