Theo van Gogh murdered

[Cpt. FrostBite 0]

sole;

Van Gogh called people believing in the Islam 'guitenneukers' or 'goat-fuckers'. Now please don't tell me that's his way of being polite

But the point was that Van Gogh was likely killed because he publicly hated the Islam. The movie submission is perhaps what killed him

Quote[/b] ]noone should be murdered for stating his opinion

I still agree with this. There are other ways of protesting against people than killing them. This is the cowards way out. He even did it during the Ramadan.

[JdB 151]

@Ironsight;

Automatic gunfire?? I guess you mean semi-automatic pistol fire? I haven't heard anything about an automatic rifle (like an AK).

I also read it was an automatic wapon, but in that line you should rather think UZI size, because an AK is rather hard to hide when you are walking/riding a bike

[Cpt. FrostBite 0]

I have now also read about 'automatic or semi-automatic fire'. Could be an uzi or a scorpion.

[Kaitnieks 0]

What still doubting me is:

When van Gogh got murdered the murder droped an letter on the remains from Theo... The police seized the letter at once and never sayed a word about it in publicity.... What's with this letter? How come we aren't allowed to see/hear what's written inside it? This is very odd cause when it was a normal letter they would have showed it... Maybe there is more going on the we might know?

[Cpt. FrostBite 0]

it's simple;

people that know what is written in the letter have something to with the killing. So they want to keep this evidence 'secret' for use in hearings of other people. It's not known if there will be other people arested, but it's better to play safe.

It's very normal for such details to be kept secret. If every bit of information is public the police won't have anything they can suprice people with during a hearing. So don't get your hopes up that it will be released soon.

[Supah 0]

I think all this crap about him is over done. Sure it is bad he got killed but I think Remco Campert (dutch author) said it best in the volkskrant (newspaper), and I quote

Quote[/b] ]

One after the other politicians made a stand for the freedom of expression, but that doesn't give one the freedom to deeply hurt people. "Nothing but good about the dead" is a saying Theo never honoured and it would be an insult to him to talk nice about him now. For a long time, before muslims, jews were his favourite victim. I believe that someone who once wrote "It smells  of caramel, they must only be burning diabetic jews today" shouldn't go down in history as some hero of the freedom of expression"

I think Mr Campert is a brave man for being this honest in a time like this.

Though murder is never the way to act if you feel hurt by someone, we have the courts for that, systematically calling muslims "Goatfuckers" as he did is wrong. His, in my eyes, opportunistic alliance with Hirshi Ali in the making of Submission was just another way of him to stir shit at muslims. The man was a Xenophobe. Though I deplore murder as a way of settling a dispute I can, in all honesty, not say I feel his passing was a great loss. He had embarked on a personal hate campaign on muslims and I guess the hate he had sown finally caught up with him.

[PitViper 0]

a bad omen for the future of European culture.  I fear this will be commonplace in twenty years. The dawn of Eurabia.. end of Europe as we know it.

[Sole 0]

@ Frostbite

Yeah, read a bit more now, I wasn't aware of the _constant_ discriminating of minorities, mostly due to the fact that I never bothered reading his stuff. ¬_¬

Then again, I did know he was very bashing-ish on certain subjects though but not that he was that extremistic in his words.

This doesn't add up that he

Quote[/b] ]hated foreigners with a dark skin

What's odd though, is the fact that the media is almost worshipping him with stuff like "he was a genius".

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ]a bad omen for the future of European culture. I fear this will be commonplace in twenty years. The dawn of Eurabia.. end of Europe as we know it.

Hardly. What's at stake are the Dutch liberal values (European meaning of the word, not American).

The Netherlands have always been one of my favourite countries because of its openness and liberal views. That opinion took a beating with Pim Fortuyn and his xenophobic party.

I fear that similar reactions can be expected here.

[PitViper 0]

The Netherlands have always been one of my favourite countries because of its openness and liberal views.

Apparently it's newest members don't share those values.

[Kaitnieks 0]

The Netherlands has always been a open country: Free for evry one, except that the latest years muslims and others started to think they own The Netherlands and that they could do what ever they want since Netherlands is a free country... the term: "Free" is a term that is some thing to powerfull for the current generation... They can't control the freedom they had within this country, and I certainly think the whole governement need to stop with this "FREE" term.

We need to make "RULES" for the people who want to live in our country rules wich they have to obey and it's simple: Dont't obey them? Go back to your own country! Cause I dont get this: When we go to Iraq/Turky we need to live to their rules... No we can't be our self we need to act and react to their rules, and they? the people inside this country who came from Iraq/Turky? They behave how they whant in here! Now that's what I call "WRONG".

[Supah 0]

The Netherlands have always been one of my favourite countries because of its openness and liberal views. That opinion took a beating with Pim Fortuyn and his xenophobic party.

Every country has its racist idiots and every racisme provokes a response. I think there is nothing unique in this.

[denoir 0]

The Netherlands have always been one of my favourite countries because of its openness and liberal views.

Apparently it's newest members don't share those values.

Indeed, but that's the paradox of democracy: we grant full freedom to even those that seek to destroy us. We are tolerant even to the intolerant.

Change that and you'll mess up the whole concept.

[PitViper 0]

The Netherlands have always been one of my favourite countries because of its openness and liberal views.

Apparently it's newest members don't share those values.

Indeed, but that's the paradox of democracy: we grant full freedom to even those that seek to destroy us. We are tolerant even to the intolerant.

Change that and you'll mess up the whole concept.

well then. What else can I say. Enjoy the ride I guess.

[Postduifje 0]

Although I didn't like the guy all that much, and his fillms were nothing more than crap, killing the guy is just horrible.

Anyway, about the 'new members' being intolerant; van Gogh was the most intolerant guy ever in the media of the Netherlands. He publicly insulted christians, jews and mostly muslims, calling them goatfuckers, pimps of allah and accusing them of regular wife-beating, incest and pedofile activities.

[xawery 0]

True, the assailant appears to be of Moroccan descent. This was not known at the time I wrote the post.

Apollo said that in the original post.......

Yes, but he edited the post in the meantime, so he must have added it later on... eh... when I wasn't looking... Oh alright, I didn't read his post with the amount of attention that was due;)

Anyway, Van Gogh was a chronic provocateur. After making "Submission" he said that it "would turn out to be a total failure if it didn't offend Muslims". Others have already mentioned other examples of his offensive spree.

Is that reason enough to murder someone? Of course not. There are no excuses for murder. But the point is that the media are trying to portray Van Gogh as some kind of overweight angel, a protagonist of free speech, guarding it from all those evil minorities which secretly plot to turn the Netherlands into a Muslim theocracy. De mortuis nil nisi bene, but this is getting ridiculous.

The true tragedy of this event is that it will result in a state of national hysteria; marches consisting of people with 'Theo' written on their foreheads; extra hardcover editions of Van Gogh's books (completely with signature), as well non-stop airing of his films for the next 3-4 weeks on every conceivable channel. Additionally, it will give the masses that precious opportunity to bitch about how everything is going to pieces; everyone will feel obliged to vent his/her well-informed opinion ("Marines on every corner...") in front of one of the hundred cameras bound to be stalking the streets.

I just HATE how predictable the response of the Dutch public really is. In the meantime, Van Gogh must be laughing his metaphysical arse off at all the hubbub he has helped create. Mission Accomplished.

[svendejong 0]

Quote[/b] ]Every country has its racist idiots

Do racists pay for an eye operation of they marroccan neighbour??

Theo was a tough person to live and work with, he was hard on everybody, even the persons he truely loved.

Sometimes he took his insults a bit far, as i've experienced in person but calling him a racist is completely out of line.

[Supah 0]

@ Nov. 03 2004,12:52)]

Quote[/b] ]Every country has its racist idiots

Do racists pay for an eye operation of they marroccan neighbour??

Theo was a tough person to live and work with, he was hard on everybody, even the persons he truely loved.

Sometimes he took his insults a bit far, as i've experienced in person but calling him a racist is completely out of line.

No its not. Look at his past writing. He was always insulting one ethnic group or the other, his jokes about jews were clearly WAY out of line. Out of line? Hah! So when it actually shows the "hero" of free speach as a bigot that freedom ends quickly eh? I'd say read his columns from the 80/90's and get to know the person everyone is rooting for.

[Apollo 0]

I didn't know Van Gogh that well ,maybe his comments were racist ,but that doesn't mean he has to get the death penalty for it.

If society deems that freedom of speech has a limit in how much you can insult a certain group ,ethnicity or culture than she has to create laws on it.In Belgium we have a anti-racism law and anyone spreading hate rhetorics can be accused and punished by justice.The Vlaams Blok ,a well known controversial party in Belgium has been accused and sentenced for their hate propaganda before.

However one must note that the controversy of this trial might as well have worked in the advantage of the Vlaams blok ,controversy often is good promotion especially when it comes to anti-immigration or anti-muslim rhetoric. (in many european country's with lots of immigrants)

Quote[/b] ]Yes, but he edited the post in the meantime, so he must have added it later on...

i almost always edit every post i make ,mainly because i edit spelling errors out after making the post ,and sometimes to add stuff i forgot to say ,but i edit almost always directly after the post.In the case of my first post i edited 18 minutes after it ,however only to add a picure of Theo van Gogh.

youre post was made 31 minutes after my first post ,so 13 minutes after my last edit.  

Immigration and a multicultural society isn't defacto a problem ,it depends on how good a group of specific immigrants assimilate or adopt themselfs to their new society.

In many cases assimilation works quite good ,in the 50's for ex. many north-West european country's had a big immigration of Italians ,never much conflict with them as their culture quite compatible with ours make's them assimilate easily.The same goes with other culture's that are often very related to ours or western ideals ,Manny Russians assimilate quite well in West Europe ,actually many hindu's assimilate quite well to as their value's are often very compatible with western value's ,or even Black Africans.

One has to note that Muslim value's most of the time mix not very well with western value's and even are sometimes contradictory and opposed to our value's.

Another nuancation however is important: formation of "ghetto's" ,whereever Ghetto's of different race or culture in a host country exists oftent the people within that Ghetto distantiate themselfs of the culture of the host nation.And in ghetto's any culture that is relativly compatible with or value's still can grow into a problem as in Ghetto's difference's of culture with the host country are often emphasized.That means that quite pacifist Hindu's that would easily assimilate in area's where they are virtually the only one of their background in that surrounding ,might bring on conflict when they group in a ghetto.

The same really applies of Muslim's ,when they are often alone imigrated in a place full of people of an other culture and value's they weill adopt themselfs much easiet to those value's.

Creation of ghetto's is failure of society ,such ghetto's are created when immigrants are poor and do not get the easy chances to work themselfs out of that situation of being poor ,as such thos people in mass have to live in regions where housing is cheap and by this ghetto's are created.

Poor regions are usually a area for increased crime ,Ghetto's are mostly composed of poor people and as such are indeed often quite infested with crime ,but the parrallel is easily made to indiginous people living in area's with very low income ,crime is almost always a lot higher in poor regions wheter immigrants or orginal poppulation lives there.

[xawery 0]

Quote[/b] ]i almost always edit every post i make ,mainly because i edit spelling errors out after making the post ,and sometimes to add stuff i forgot to say ,but i edit almost always directly after the post.In the case of my first post i edited 18 minutes after it ,however only to add a picure of Theo van Gogh.

youre post was made 31 minutes after my first post ,so 13 minutes after my last edit.

Lol, I was joking... I kind of hoped my post made that quite clear

Quote[/b] ]Immigration and a multicultural society isn't defacto a problem ,it depends on how good a group of specific immigrants assimilate or adopt themselfs to their new society.

In many cases assimilation works quite good ,in the 50's for ex. many north-West european country's had a big immigration of Italians ,never much conflict with them as their culture quite compatible with ours make's them assimilate easily.

This is simply not true, at least not in the case of the Netherlands. The integration (assimilation is a pejorative term) of Italians was a very problematic issue for the Dutch government. The Italians stuck together, caused trouble and antagonised the Dutch populace. This resulted in a backlash, with such charming results like "Italians not allowed"-signs in front of restaurants and bars.

A report by the Blok commission, which has studied the integration efforts of the Dutch government over the past decades, states that "the integration of most immigrants has been partially or wholly succesful". This is quite a different view from the "utter disaster"-rhetoric of right-wing scaremongers.

Blaming a whole ethnic group for the religious excesses of some individuals is not the right thing to do.

[Supah 0]

A report by the Blok commission, which has studied the integration efforts of the Dutch government over the past decades, states that "the integration of most immigrants has been partially or wholly succesful". This is quite a different view from the "utter disaster"-rhetoric of right-wing scaremongers.

Blaming a whole ethnic group for the religious excesses of some individuals is not the right thing to do.

I agree whole heartedly BUT a certain (large) group of people lack the intellectual strength of mind to look past the acts of individuals and fall for the rhetoric of hate and simplistic thinking. Its easier to believe all muslims are bad, that all morrocans are evil and that all immigrants just want to abuse ou social security system because otherwise they would have to acknowledge that its not black and white but a lot of shades of grey in between. They would have to acknowledge that the blame for this does not fall squarely on one side. They would have to make an effort to read what van Gogh was saying/writing for decades and realise that he wasn't some plump knight in shining armor on a crusade to protect the freedom of speech. That he was as bad as the person (and the extremist group he supposedly belonged too) who killed him. Its easier to escape in such group thinking because it doesn't require any effort or further thinking of them and it puts them on the "good" side. It's amazing to see these people agreeing with the idea that Bush his simplistic "either with us or against us" views are divisive and wrong but when it suits them they use the same thinking themselves. Stupidity and/or lazyness breeds Hypocricy.

[gandalf the white 0]

allright, a little update...

the letter pinned on Van Gogh's body was a thread aimed directly at a politicial here named Hirsi Ali) , and the murderer was planning on getting himself killed.

kinda strange, police immediatly open fire and kill a german with a BBgun but a guy with a pistol and two knifes who just killed somebody they just shoot in the leg...?

[Kaitnieks 0]

I readed the full letter.

Looks like he made some statements about going under things.

Quote[/b] ]

''Ik weet zeker dat jij, O Amerika, ten onder gaat.''

''Ik weet zeker dat jij, O Europa, ten onder gaat.''

''Ik weet zeker dat jij, O Nederland, ten onder gaat.''

''Ik weet zeker dat jij, O Hirshi Ali, ten onder gaat.''

''Ik weet zeker dat jij, O ongelovige fundamentalist, ten onder gaat.''

It says: I know fo sure that you: Europa,Netherlands,Hirshi Ali,Unbelievable people will go down.

A direct threat against us?

Or what.

[gandalf the white 0]

!! source?!

i'm now considering if i have dropped low enough to carry arms on the street... (Live in amsterdam).

man... look where they got us .

[Ironsight 1]

!! source?!

Source is probably the RTL4 news site.

Quote[/b] ]i'm now considering if i have dropped low enough to carry arms on the street... (Live in amsterdam).

Same here, I won't be walking through some neighbourhoods again (unarmed)

Quote[/b] ]

man... look where they got us .

We are caught by the terrorists