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Apollo

Theo van Gogh murdered

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People spread out and evolution kicked in. Some people mixed with people from near countries, assmilated and thus ethnicity remains. There are differences, removing the terms for them won't make them go away. Differences are there for a reason and aren't bad.

This has absolutely NOTHING to do with evolution. A marrocan is a Homo Sapiens just like you and me. There is no difference there. The differences are minute genetically. What differences there are culturaly will change over time. Clearly nurture and not nature.

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People spread out and evolution kicked in. Some people mixed with people from near countries, assmilated and thus ethnicity remains. There are differences, removing the terms for them won't make them go away. Differences are there for a reason and aren't bad.

This has absolutely NOTHING to do with evolution. A marrocan is a Homo Sapiens just like you and me. There is no difference there. The differences are minute genetically.

Slow change = evolution.

Quote[/b] ]What differences there are culturaly will change over time.

I wish the cultures across the world won't mix into one giant international culture.

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I wish the cultures across the world won't mix into one giant international culture.

So, let's summarize. You don't want people migrating between countries. You don't want people of different ethnicial backgrounds to mix. You don't want to mix the cultures.

You do understand that had we been following that kind of thinking throughout the history, we would have been inbred cavemen today, all looking like Prince Charles and playing the banjo?

Migration and blending of different populations is if nothing else a biological necessity. This is especially true for smaller nations.

Quote[/b] ]Anyway that immigration came with the extended borders during our great power era and that didn't cause 90% of our culture to be foreign. That's just outrageous.

That immigration continued until the 18th century - far after the great power era. And what difference does it make under what conditions it happened? During the 16th-17th century, the base for Swedish commerce and industry (that lives on today) was founded largely by immigrants.

As for the 90%, overall it's a grave understatement. I'd be surprised if we today have even 0.1% of anything 'original' Swedish. Take a look around you where you are now. Of the things you see, how many were invented by Swedes. If you can name five, I'd be impressed.

You are posting on an internet foum. What brought you this? Well, the Internet is an American invention. The Web was invented by a British guy working in CERN in Switzerland. How did they get the base for it? Well, it was because of American researchers that were working there in Switzerland. Immigration is essential for any technological development.

Let me give you another example. In my company, we have a guy from Iran and one from Syria. They are both experts in their fields and essential for a number of projects. These projects bring in a lot of money on which the company pays a lot of taxes to the state. Without these guys Sweden would lose economically. In turn, it would also mean less profit for the company and we wouldn't be able to hire more people.

A very good example of the power of immigration is of course America. It's hardly surprizing that they have for instance won the greatest number of nobel prizes. They realized early on that dicriminating on the base of nation or ethnicity is moronic - you should utilize the best individuals. After the WTC attacks, American immigration policy became more stricter - and the effects are already visible. Promising researchers from around the world have started moving to the EU instead of the US. This recently prompted a number of prominent American scientist to sign a protest letter against the stricter immigration laws, warning that the US economy will be hurt badly if the trend is not reversed.

Your problem iNeo is that you think that some immigrant teenager gangs in some Stockholm suburbs are representative of what immigration is. It is not - they are the extreme case and not representative of the immigrants in Sweden in general - the same way, say Swedish neo-nazis are not representative of Sweden in general.

Can we do better with integration? Sure as hell. There are economic gaps and gaps on the job-market that we need to work on etc That doesn't however mean that up to date integration has failed. It's work in progress and always will be.

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Evolution, as proposed by darwin, takes place over a FAR larger timescale then our current political system of independant nation states has excisted. Over the last 1000 years its safe to say evolution hasn't occured.

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Next poem is in Dutch ,sorry:

Quote[/b] ]

ik wist niet

dat zulke oude kogels nog bestonden

er vlogen oren rond

bloedmooie dag zo leek de ochtend

steeds meer vlees

noch wist ik van de oude hockeydames

die niet meer hockeyen

niet van de tasjesroof

waarna zij nooit meer koffie dronken

ik weet wel meer niet

dat je iemand varken vindt of vlees

alla mohammed

maar dat je je eigen papier zo haat

dat je er in prikken moet

bloedmooie dag

zo leek de ochtend

bloed zo mooi

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So, let's summarize. You don't want people migrating between countries. You don't want people of different ethnicial backgrounds to mix. You don't want to mix the cultures.

True, true, half-true. I said earlier that I don't want isolation, I reckon cultures should be mixed more moderately than how it gets with massive migration.

As for the 90%, overall it's a grave understatement. I'd be surprised if we today have even 0.1% of anything 'original' Swedish.

Well if so, the same must go for 99% of the world's countries that aren't isolated, but you must still be able to talk about "Swedish culture," "German culture," "Italian culture" etc since they aren't the same.

Quote[/b] ]Your problem iNeo is that you think that some immigrant teenager gangs in some Stockholm suburbs are representative of what immigration is.

I guess you're right. But the gangs are a big problem, but that's kind of off-topic. I'm 100% sure if they were from a culture less far away these problems would barely exist.

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Evolution, as proposed by darwin, takes place over a FAR larger timescale then our current political system of independant nation states has excisted. Over the last 1000 years its safe to say evolution hasn't occured.

evolution

a. Change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations, as a result of natural selection acting on the genetic variation among individuals, and resulting in the development of new species.

http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/e/e0256400.html

You can't deny that's what's happened since the first man walked on earth.

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Well if so, the same must go for 99% of the world's countries that aren't isolated, but you must still be able to talk about "Swedish culture," "German culture," "Italian culture" etc since they aren't the same.

Yeah, but the differences are minute. The normal life of a German differs very little from a normal life of a Swede.

Furthermore you must understand that those things called specifically "Swedish culture" etc, arn't necessarily Swedish to begin with.

Take midsommar. It's originally a keltic holiday, stĺng and everything. Sill och färskpotatis? Well, the sill might be ours - perhaps. Potatoes on the other hand first came in the 17th century from the other side of the ocean.

Now I'm not saying that traditions are not worth keeping and protecting to some extent, but you have to be aware of how little original Swedish there is in Swedish traditions and culture. Society develops.

Quote[/b] ]
Quote[/b] ]Your problem iNeo is that you think that some immigrant teenager gangs in some Stockholm suburbs are representative of what immigration is.

I guess you're right. But the gangs are a big problem, but that's kind of off-topic. I'm 100% sure if they were from a culture less far away these problems would barely exist.

Actually the highest criminality rate among immigrants is amongst the Finns in Sweden. The difference is that it is much easier to point the finger at people that are different in some way. It's nothing new really, just human nature. When people lived in villages, they were very suspicios of strangers as well - then it just meant people from other parts of the country.

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Actually the highest criminality rate among immigrants is amongst the Finns in Sweden. The difference is that it is much easier to point the finger at people that are different in some way. It's nothing new really, just human nature. When people lived in villages, they were very suspicios of strangers as well - then it just meant people from other parts of the country.

What kind these crimes are? Are Finns in Sweden also stabbing eachother?

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Evolution, as proposed by darwin, takes place over a FAR larger timescale then our current political system of independant nation states has excisted. Over the last 1000 years its safe to say evolution hasn't occured.

evolution

a. Change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations, as a result of natural selection acting on the genetic variation among individuals, and resulting in the development of new species.

http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/e/e0256400.html

You can't deny that's what's happened since the first man walked on earth.

We have evolved. Only the difference is so small that it is almost impossible to notice it. It took man almost 10.000 years to evolve from people bending over when they walk to the up-right human of today.

One thing that has changed is that people are (on average) a little longer then 1.000 years ago.

That's evolution.

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Actually the highest criminality rate among immigrants is amongst the Finns in Sweden.

I'm not sure but I think that the crime rates have got lower among the second generation of Finnish immigrants. It's now at the same level as the average.. I guess they wont be counted as Finns unless you want to.

Crime rates gets high among some social groups, not ethnical. Many of the Finns who got here had a pretty hard time. I doubt there's a single Finn in Sweden who haven't been called a finnjävel. The second generation Finns are now being treated as other Swedes so they have got out of the social group that commits crimes at a higher level than others.

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Furthermore you must understand that those things called specifically "Swedish culture" etc, arn't necessarily Swedish to begin with.

Now I'm not saying that traditions are not worth keeping and protecting to some extent, but you have to be aware of how little original Swedish there is in Swedish traditions and culture. Society develops.

This only goes for Sweden of course? rock.gif

Quote[/b] ]Take midsommar. It's originally a keltic holiday, stĺng and everything.

Then I would like to know why wikipedia doesn't mention anything about Celtic, but says:

"In Britain from the 13th century Midsummer was celebrated on Midsummer Eve (St. John's Eve, June 23) and St. Peter's Eve (June 28) [...]. The tradition [...] persisted in rural areas up until the nineteenth century before petering out."

By the way, you probably already knew that christmas isn't christian in the Nordic countries, it's a tradition from the times of the aesir cult, celebrating the winter solstice and return of light. That's why there's no "christ-" or anything in the word for christmas in the Nordic languages. But of course, not everything that is Swedish today is originally Swedish. But it's more than you seem to assert, and it buggers me when you only attack Sweden.

Quote[/b] ]Yeah, but the differences are minute. The normal life of a German differs very little from a normal life of a Swede.

Yup well that's obvious. The differences in between cultures in Europe are mostly things you don't think about.

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Evolution, as proposed by darwin, takes place over a FAR larger timescale then our current political system of independant nation states has excisted. Over the last 1000 years its safe to say evolution hasn't occured.

evolution

a. Change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations, as a result of natural selection acting on the genetic variation among individuals, and resulting in the development of new species.

http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/e/e0256400.html

You can't deny that's what's happened since the first man walked on earth.

We have evolved. Only the difference is so small that it is almost impossible to notice it. It took man almost 10.000 years to evolve from people bending over when they walk to the up-right human of today.

One thing that has changed is that people are (on average) a little longer then 1.000 years ago.

That's evolution.

I mean Eskimos for example. Their bodies are made for their climate. Africans are still black, for it fits their climate. Etc. Since we all looked the same in the beginning, and now we look different, you don't think that's evolution?

You say we evolve. If you evolve biologically, you're "doing" an evolution. Yes the increase of length is evolution aswell. People were shorter just two, three hundred years ago.

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By the way, you probably already knew that christmas isn't christian in the Nordic countries, it's a tradition from the times of the aesir cult, celebrating the winter solstice and return of light. That's why there's no "christ-" or anything in the word for christmas in the Nordic languages. But of course, not everything that is Swedish today is originally Swedish.

The winter solistice is 20th-21st December, not the 24th. As for the origins of celebration, if I recall correctly it's originally a Roman tradition (Festival of the birth of the Unconquered Sun)  - far before the Vikings.

Quote[/b] ]But it's more than you seem to assert, and it buggers me when you only attack Sweden.

First of all, I'm bringing up Sweden since you are a Swedish nationalist. Had you been a Russian nationalist, I'd be giving you Russian examples.

Second, I'm not in any way attacking it. There's nothing wrong with cultural development. Without it we'd be living in cages painting line figures on stones.

The point I'm trying to convey to you is that external cultural influence and mixes of culture is nothing new. It's been going on since the dawn of man.

Quote[/b] ]I mean Eskimos for example. Their bodies are made for their climate. Africans are still black, for it fits their climate. Etc. Since we all looked the same in the beginning, and now we look different, you don't think that's evolution?

You say we evolve. If you evolve biologically, you're "doing" an evolution. Yes the increase of length is evolution aswell. People were shorter just two, three hundred years ago.

It is biological evolution. What is worth noticing however is that the genetic difference between members of a race or nation are far smaller than the differences between individuals in one ethnic group. Even if we are both Swedish, you are no more similar to me genetically than to a random person picked on the other side of the globe. With humans genetics is not the most important thing. It's our main organ - the brain - and it does not come pre-programmed at birth. You take an eskimo baby and bring it up in Africa amongst bushmen and it will become one of them.

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The winter solistice is 20th-21st December, not the 24th.

Yea, 1. they probably didn't care about the exact date, 2. I'm not saying christianity stole it and put it on the same date, they celebrate( -d ) the birth of Jesus and with the "christianization" that celebration replaced the original (reasons for) celebration.

Quote[/b] ]As for the origins of celebration, if I recall correctly it's originally a Roman tradition (Festival of the birth of the Unconquered Sun) - far before the Vikings.

"Originally" as in all other winter solstice celebrations were born through imitating the Roman one? I find that hard to believe.

Quote[/b] ]First of all, I'm bringing up Sweden since you are a Swedish nationalist. Had you been a Russian nationalist, I'd be giving you Russian examples.

Second, I'm not in any way attacking it. There's nothing wrong with cultural development. Without it we'd be living in cages painting line figures on stones.

The point I'm trying to convey to you is that external cultural influence and mixes of culture is nothing new. It's been going on since the dawn of man.

Fair enough.

What is worth noticing however is that the genetic difference between members of a race or nation are far smaller than the differences between individuals in one ethnic group. Even if we are both Swedish, you are no more similar to me genetically than to a random person picked on the other side of the globe.

Heard that before and it's quite strange since it's not like two white parents would give birth to a black baby. umm.. I mean the baby gets its genes from its parents and it will look like the rest of its people. But I guess the genes that decide all that are fewer than the ones that decide that which isn't bound to ethnicity. I sorta know nothing of genes so nevermind. (Not saying you're wrong.)

Quote[/b] ]With humans genetics is not the most important thing. It's our main organ - the brain - and it does not come pre-programmed at birth. You take an eskimo baby and bring it up in Africa amongst bushmen and it will become one of them.

Of course. Mentally.

Bring it up in Africa amongst other Eskimos and he will remain the same, hint hint.

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While this thread's digression into issues of ethnicity is interesting in itself, I would like to post something more in line with the original theme.

The two men captured after the 14h siege in Den Haag appear to have been planning an attack on two controversial members of parliament: Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Geert Wilders. Hirsi Ali, as we all probably know by now, is the MP of Somalian origin who was the co-creator of Van Gogh's short film 'Submission'. Geert Wilders is a far-right dissident from the VVD (Volkspartij voor Vrijheid en Democratie, People's Party for Freedom and Democracy), who left the party because he refused to conform to it's favourable stance towards Turkey joining the EU. Wilders has created a one-man party called Groep Wilders.

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Quote[/b] ]

Mosque set on fire in Netherlands

Police said the mosque was too badly damaged to be usable

A fire has badly damaged a mosque in the Netherlands, in what may be the latest in a series of arson attacks.

Police said the small wooden mosque, in the south-eastern village of Helden, near the German border, had caught light early on Saturday.

They said it was not immediately clear if arsonists were behind the attack.

There have been more than 20 incidents of fires or vandalism at Muslim buildings since the murder of the controversial filmmaker Theo van Gogh.

BBC Article here!

So this might not be very special the last days except that incidents like this is on the rise sad_o.gif

What botheres me is that a hole group is punished for one persons criminal acts. Now, you might say that this actually happened as the murder of the dutch film maker actually took place. What worries my is that in 1936 people in Germany shared the same attitude towards another ethnic group.

So what will it be then? We already have an ethnic group spread around the world counting millions (palestinians) . They too dream of their own home country like a previous group identified with their own diaspora.

Why don't we just start the new milleniums pogromes and create another disaster?

Long live (Social) Nationalism sad_o.gif

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