Theo van Gogh murdered

[Acecombat 0]

And why would someone simply kill you?

I cant understand when people simply blow things out of proportion ...

[Ironsight 1]

And why would someone simply kill you?

I cant understand when people simply blow things out of proportion ...

Well it's not just an incident but you see a lot of hostilities lately (muslim vs. western). It started with Pim Fortuyn and since then it got only worse.

A friend of mine was beaten up by Marroccan's almost about a year ago, because he was only passing by and they didn't liked him. So you can understand how I feel about this.

[Kaitnieks 0]

!! source?!

i'm now considering if i have dropped low enough to carry arms on the street... (Live in amsterdam).

man... look where they got us   .

Here you go: Just got released today.

Released Letter that was on Theo his body (Dutch only)

Suicide Note from Killer: Mohammed B

Oh and the offical plan was: After the killer killed Theo he was suposing to kill him self but... Some thing gone wrong, also in his suicide note he is claiming this is the begin of the end.

Let's hope this will all pass away.

Aivars

[Supah 0]

It wont when people keep acting like a bunch of hysterics and go down van Gogh's route of hatred.

[gandalf the white 0]

It wont when people keep acting like a bunch of hysterics and go down van Gogh's route of hatred.

well that's kinda hard when a extremist party that is allowed HERE in OUR COUNTRY is threathening me with DEATH! , those sons of bitches came HERE begging for a home, and as soon as they've settled in they try to murder us! BUT WHY WOULD I BE HYSTERICAL?!

(note this is only about those fucking extremists, so don't jump me with a knife )

[Supah 0]

It wont when people keep acting like a bunch of hysterics and go down van Gogh's route of hatred.

well that's kinda hard when a extremist party that is allowed HERE in OUR COUNTRY is threathening me with DEATH! , those sons of bitches came HERE begging for a home, and as soon as they've settled in they try to murder us! BUT WHY WOULD I BE HYSTERICAL?!

(note this is only about those fucking extremists, so don't jump me with a knife   )

... thanks for proving my point ....

[Acecombat 0]

Gandalf please think before you post and dont do a conservative on us as it happened in the yank election thread

No one is questioning Hollands credibility for allowing people in to work and live freely. We are talking about the resident local racist mr theo ...

[Frisbee 0]

A friend of mine was beaten up by Marroccan's almost about a year ago, because he was only passing by and they didn't liked him. So you can understand how I feel about this.

My friends have experienced similar problems in the city nearby, though that was mostly Marrocans who somehow had a beef with them from school, or someone who had a beef with them asked these guys to beat my friends up.

Well, that'll happen, but resorting to carrying firearms is silly. This isn't the wild west, if you start carrying guns so will they. Now, instead of getting beat up and losing your money, you will, at worst get shot and lose your money, maybe you can take one down with you, but as you probably have noticed yourself, the people who do these sorts of things are always in groups, can't do much about that with a pistol.

An AK perhaps?

[Ironsight 1]

An AK perhaps?

Was more thinking in the lines of: taser, pepperspray, airsoft etc.

Or maybe it is better to just avoid those parts of the city

[Frisbee 0]

Was more thinking in the lines of: taser, pepperspray, airsoft etc.

Hehe, maybe.

Quote[/b] ]Or maybe it is better to just avoid those parts of the city

I'm in favour of this one actually. There are some parts of Mechelen, Brussel or Antwerpen which I try to avoid, but since I don't live there but just go to school in Mechelen, and go shopping in the others, I mostly stay in the bland populated streets.

Train stations at nightfall suck though, I don't like waiting for the bus when it's late.

[iNeo 0]

Just never show that you're afraid, if you are.

Some ghetto gangs are really messed up, and of course they're always 10 times as many as you and your friends are if you're lucky enough not to be alone. They might walk up to you and ask "where's the party?" and you don't know what to say cause you just bought some milk and you're on the way back home, so you say "err what?" and they say "the party! where is it?", "what party?" *assault* ouch

[shinRaiden 0]

Well, well, well, look at all the security moms and neo-cons now...

AP -Washington Times

Quote[/b] ]THE HAGUE — The Dutch government yesterday vowed tough measures against what a leading politician called "the arrival of jihad in the Netherlands" after a death threat to a Dutch lawmaker was found spiked with a knife to the body of a slain filmmaker by his radical Muslim attacker.

A five-page letter released Thursday night by the justice minister forced political leaders — including Amsterdam's Jewish mayor and members of parliament — to take on bodyguards.

The document, attached to the body of filmmaker Theo van Gogh, was titled "An Open Letter to [Aayan] Hirsi Ali," referring to a Somali-born member of parliament. She had scripted Mr. van Gogh's latest film, "Submission," which criticized the treatment of women under Islam.

Miss Hirsi Ali, who calls herself an ex-Muslim, has gone into hiding.

"Death, Ms. Hirsi Ali, is the common theme of all that exists. You and the rest of the cosmos cannot escape this truth," the letter said.

"There will come a day when one soul cannot help another soul. A day that goes paired with terrible tortures, ... when the unjust will press horrible screams from their lungs.

"Screams, Ms. Hirsi Ali, that will cause chills to run down a person's back, and make the hairs on their heads stand straight up. People will be drunk with fear, while they are not drunken. Fear will fill the air on the Great Day," the letter said.

"I know definitely that you, Oh America, will go down. I know definitely that you, Oh Europe, will go down. I know definitely that you, Oh Netherlands, will go down. I know definitely that you, Oh Hirsi Ali, will go down," it said.

Deputy Prime Minister Gerrit Zalm agreed with comments by other politicians who called Mr. van Gogh's slaying a declaration of Islamic jihad, or "holy war."

"We are not going to tolerate this. We are going to ratchet up the fight against this sort of terrorism," he said. "The increase in radicalization is worse than we had thought."

Among measures under consideration is an emergency law to enable authorities to revoke the Dutch nationality of dual citizens suspected of terrorist activity so that they can be deported.

Mr. Zalm said the intelligence service, which already has expanded since the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks in the United States, would receive more funding to help it monitor potential terrorist recruits.

The suspected killer in the van Gogh case, a 26-year-old Dutch-Moroccan national, was arraigned on six terrorism-related charges.

Mr. van Gogh, a descendant of 19th-century Dutch painter Vincent van Gogh, was fatally shot and stabbed Tuesday while cycling down an Amsterdam street. The remains of the provocative social commentator and author, whose throat was slashed in the attack, will be cremated Tuesday in a public service.

The slaying is testing already strained relations between the ethnic Dutch population and the Muslim community. There are about 300,000 Moroccan immigrants in the Netherlands out of a population of 16 million.

Mr. Zalm said talks were ongoing with Muslim groups over how to avoid a violent backlash against Muslims.

Arsonists are believed to have set fire to a mosque in the central Dutch city of Utrecht, police spokesman Peter Keijzers said. There were no reports of injuries.

Jozias van Aartsen, parliamentary speaker for the nationalist People's Party for Freedom and Democracy (VVD), the second-largest party in the government of Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende, <u>issued a statement that called Mr. van Gogh's slaying tantamount to a declaration of war.

"The jihad has come to the Netherlands and a small group of jihadist terrorists is attacking the principles of our country," he said. "I hope the Netherlands will now move beyond denial and do what is fitting in a democracy — take action.

"These people don't want to change our society, they want to destroy it," he said.</u>

The terrorist threat left by Mr. van Gogh's killer carries the ideology of a terrorist movement, Takfir wal Hijra or "Repentance and Flight," which advocates isolation from what it calls the sinful world, Dutch press reported.

Chief prosecutor Leo de Wit said the suspected killer, identified only as Mohammed B., faces at least six terrorism-related counts, including charges of murder and "participating in a criminal organization with terrorist characteristics."

The suspect, wounded in the leg in a shootout with police, has refused to talk to investigators. He was arrested with a note in his pocket titled "Drenched in Blood."

Authorities arrested eight other suspects in Mr. van Gogh's slaying and are looking into any links between the suspects and foreign terrorist groups.

Two suspects were released, Mr. de Wit said yesterday. Six will be charged with conspiring to commit murder, he said.

Prosecutors said all are Islamic radicals of North African ancestry. Four also were arrested Oct. 23 on suspicion of plotting a terrorist attack but were released for lack of evidence. Justice Minister Piet Hein Donner told parliament the four had contacts with a suspect in last year's Casablanca bombings.

But to make all the provisions really effective with Europe's increasingly open borders, wouldn't it need the backing of a Europeon edition of the PAtriot Act?

[Supah 0]

Our current government are a bunch of right wing retards Saying what they are now is just going to make things worse. It will only widen the void between people. It makes certain people hysterical, it ends reasoned discussion and replaces it by the rhetoric of hate. The people who are claiming he was some knight protecting the freedom of speech should take a good, long, hard unbiased look at what Van Gogh liked to say. Unfortunately their just following the crowd. Some assorted quotes:

from 1989 about henk van der meyden

Quote[/b] ]I am looking forward to the day that we will say goodbye to Henk van der Meyden when, as ive been told, the mercy of AIDS will close henks eyes finally, finally!

from 1994 about a historian called Eveline Gans, a jewish scientist

Quote[/b] ]I believe that madam has been shagged by doctor mengele in a many a moist dream

2001 about a politician called Paul Rosenmöller:

Quote[/b] ]If anyone deserves cancer its Paul Rosenmöller, the leader of political correct dutchmen. May the tumors in his head form into a rejoicing tumor (...) let us piss on his grave

This is besides all his ranting against everything muslim. You want to call that exercising your freedom of speech? I wouldn't. He had been insulting and provoking the netherlands muslim society for years with similar rhetoric. Sure murder is wrong but if you are going to willingly hurt people deeply to compensate for a lack of talent as an author you shouldn't be surprised by the lash back from the more extreme elements of your victims.

The dimwitted rhetoric of short sighted politicians trying to use this to boost their vote count is just dispicable and sickening.

[red oct 2]

why do they always deport people for funding terrorists? won't they just raise money in some other country? i would just lock them up.

[Cpt. FrostBite 0]

problem is that there is now way you can keep them locked up for ever. Deporting them is the smart thing to do.

[gandalf the white 0]

problem is that there is now way you can keep them locked up for ever. Deporting them is the smart thing to do.

70 % of the world is sea, let's drop a dart on a map and let fate decide!

[Frisbee 0]

Our current government are a bunch of right wing retards Saying what they are now is just going to make things worse. It will only widen the void between people. It makes certain people hysterical, it ends reasoned discussion and replaces it by the rhetoric of hate. The people who are claiming he was some knight protecting the freedom of speech should take a good, long, hard unbiased look at what Van Gogh liked to say. Unfortunately their just following the crowd.

unfortunately, most governements are like that nowadays.

Quote[/b] ] Saying what they are now is just going to make things worse. It will only widen the void between people. It makes certain people hysterical, it ends reasoned discussion and replaces it by the rhetoric of hate.

Indeed, even the more moderate people are going :

"OMG, why can't we ever say something about Islam without being stoned to death with racism accusations?"

or even moderate muslims :

"OMG, why is everyone seemingly against us this time?"

Both sides have people who want the polarisation to continue, it's so sad.

Quote[/b] ]Unfortunately their just following the crowd.

People here in Belgium are commenting on it too. I'm sure most of them don't even know any of his work, besides the pieces quoted by muslim representatives to prove their point, so they conclude that "the muslims are blowing it out of proportion again".

Sigh.

[Supah 0]

Ok now it has come so far that:

1. Geert Wilders, a righter then right wing politician who broke away from another party over his extreme views, wants to strip muslim citizens of certain civil rights. For instance the right of assembly and the right to have their own schools. Though there hasn't been an election that he took part in independently polls project him at 20 seats in parliament (other polls project him lower, like 5). I'd like to thank those people for supporting something that looks, sounds and smells like nazisme.

2. In Eindhoven (in the south of the netherlands) a Islamic school has been heavily damaged in a bomb attack, Musques have been vandalised with racist graffitti and posters.

I know who is being undemocratic, extremist and using the tactics of terror and it isn't the muslim community.

[VXR 9]

Quote[/b] ]Or maybe it is better to just avoid those parts of the city  

I'm in favour of this one actually. There are some parts of Mechelen, Brussel or Antwerpen which I try to avoid, but since I don't live there but just go to school in Mechelen, and go shopping in the others, I mostly stay in the bland populated streets.

Train stations at nightfall suck though, I don't like waiting for the bus when it's late.  

I don't agree on avoiding those parts of a city... thats just what those people want you to do. It makes them feel they can do everything what they want there.

[Postduifje 0]

I just hate it when people abuse the word terrorism in the media all the time. Nowadays they call anything that they don't like and is directed to themselves terrorism. The murder of The van Gogh was not terrorism, it was simple murder. The bombing of the islamic school in Eindhoven or the violence at the mosks in Breda and Amsterdam, that's what you might call terrorism.

[xawery 0]

Yep. Long live hysteria! The way some people act can be descirbed metaphorically as a kind of mental, spontaneous and self-perpetuating orgy. We've had neo-fascists marching through the streets, a vice-prime minister declaring "war on extremism" (gee, now where would this kind of rhetoric be coming from??) and people who want to uphold freedom of speech by stripping some citizens of their rights.

The best part is, this whole affair is awfully ironic. The right-wingers clutch at this incident to underline the need for mandatory integration of immigrants: our way or the highway. In the meantime, the Moroccan man who murdered Theo van Gogh spoke perfect Dutch, finished the HAVO (secondary school) with excellent grades and was described as 'very promising' by his teachers. The note he left on van Gogh's butchered corpse was written in perfect Dutch.

This is the ironic and quite frankly, tragic bit. The murder wasn't some rabid Moroccan 'goatfucker', frothing at the mouth with hatred of our 'freedom'. No, this was a boy who was raised in our system and educated in our schools. Bearing this in mind, one can draw one of two possible conclusions: that this was an exceptional event, OR that our system is so flawed that is spawns extremists. Knowing my 'fellow countrymen', the second conclusion won't be deemed as absurd as it is.

I'd like to extend this issue a little further. This extension might seem somewhat off-topic, so bear with me. Currently, a Dutch version of the British programme "Greatest Briton of All" is being aired in the Netherlands, called, not surprisingly, "the Greates Dutchman of All". The show is now down to the top 10, which includes inter alia William of Orange, Erasmus and, believe it or not, Pim Fortuyn. One could devote a whole discussion to the composition of this top 10, but that's not what I aim to do.

As you perhaps know, each of the candidates has an 'ambassador', tasked with explaining to the public why this candidate is the greatest Dutchman. Erasmus is deemed worthy of the title because he can be seen as one of the forefathers of humanism, tolerance and freedom of thought. He undermined the black-and-white thinking of his time, positioned himself in the middle of disputing sides, and highlighted the importance of nuance and consideration for the other man's motives.

I look at the world today and I see politicians systematically eroding all that Erasmus has initiated. Centuries of progressive thought are being undone now, and it seems as if people want to return the black-and-white thinking along religious lines.

Just makes you wanna jump from joy, doesn't it?

[shinRaiden 0]

Well 'terrorism' is just the extra label that gets tacked on to something, like 'normal' assualt vs. 'aggravated' assault, or hate crimes stuff. If I spray-painted "j00 lus3r" on a house belonging to someone of another race it would be malicious mischief (misdemeanor), but if I graffitied something banned by this board's rules it would be a felony "hate crimes" tacked on top. The anti-mob RICO laws work like that too.

Where this crosses the line from just a 'normal' hit to an escalated case is the motive and message and method. Van Gogh was deliberately targeted to be eliminated for exercising his right to free speech. The note was intended to intimidate (via a death threat) his film partner into giving up her right to free speech and freedom of religion.

The note further was a statement of declaration of war between one culture and another with the terms offered of "winner takes all". They're offering negotiations at gunpoint, and Van Gogh 'lost'. You've got two choices, play by the rules of the party you've been dragged into, or change the rules. Oh, and if you haven't figured it out yet, their rules are a no-win nihilism, so playing by them won't fly.

[Postduifje 0]

Van Gogh wasn't simply exercising his right to free speech, he was costantly insulting people in a very serious way. I'm not saying that he deserves anything in the line of what has been done, not at all. But he was a prick, and some people and some cultures take really nasty things said about their prophet and extreme generalisations about the treatments of their wifes so seriously, that they fail to see a way out of the situation with words.

To come back on the freedom of speech; A reporter of the New York Times said in an interview with "de Volkskrant" that he wasn't able to explain in the US what has happened in the Netherlands, because he would be fired instantly when naming the word 'goatfuckers' (a term van Gogh eagerly used for muslims). There is a line between using free speech and making untolerable insults, and van Gogh crossed that line in almost every piece he wrote.

[Supah 0]

Interesting, people who read the Volkskrant (I do too, believe I saw Xawery quote from it a while back too) aren't reacting like a hysteric .... Maybe there is some truth that certain papers reach a certain target audience

Meanwhile after the attacks on Mosques there have been two attempts (none succeeded) to set fire to some churches. Both caused only very minor damage. I think people need to calm the F down and start thinking.

[xawery 0]

Interesting, people who read the Volkskrant (I do too, believe I saw Xawery quote from it a while back too) aren't reacting like a hysteric .... Maybe there is some truth that certain papers reach a certain target audience

What?! Read De Volkskrant? Never! I only quote from NRC Handelsblad. Lux et Libertas4life!

All joking aside though, there is a certain breed of newspapers in NL that seems to thrive on hysteria *cough*De Telegraaf*cough*... NRC for example has a very strict rule concerning the ethnicity of the persons they report about: unless the ethnic background of the person in question is relevant to the story, it is not mentioned. Obviously in the case of Van Gogh it was relevant. In other cases however, where it isn't, other papers are all to keen on mentioning it and saying implicitly "see, he was Moroccan/Turkish/from the Antilles, see what those folks are capable of?".

I won't even mention the likes of De Elsevier because it's an opinion magazine, but really... The Netherlands may have the best score on the Press Freedom World Index, but it sure as hell doesn't say anything about the quality.