Theo van Gogh murdered

[Ironsight 1]

Apparently the Local "Soccer" team's ADO den haag's more hooliganistic supporters are getting involved and the riot police is chasing them down with dogs. This is fast becoming a circus.

Saw it too, hope they arrest them all and lock them up for a couple of days

[Supah 0]

Apparently the Local "Soccer" team's ADO den haag's more hooliganistic supporters are getting involved and the riot police is chasing them down with dogs. This is fast becoming a circus.

Saw it too, hope they arrest them all and lock them up for a couple of days  

According to reporters at the scene they were "Talking" to muslim youths and that escalated. Having some experience with them I can tell you talking ADO supporter style is calling people whores, throwing chairs and what not at people and generally beeing a hooligan.

[JRMZ 0]

Apparently the Local "Soccer" team's ADO den haag's more hooliganistic supporters are getting involved and the riot police is chasing them down with dogs. This is fast becoming a circus.

Saw it too, hope they arrest them all and lock them up for a couple of days  

According to reporters at the scene they were "Talking" to muslim youths and that escalated. Having some experience with them I can tell you talking ADO supporter style is calling people whores, throwing chairs and what not at people and generally beeing a hooligan.

Well I would vote for ZERO TOLLERANCE in the Netherlands atm  

[xawery 0]

Quote[/b] ]Xavery, I'm rather interested if your logic has the solution for this, seeing that you are the enlightened one.

'My' logic? There is no 'my' logic, logic is an impartial, absolute concept. Perhaps you mean to ask what my view is on the matters. Well, I was under the impression that I've been explaining those over the course of this thread, but fine, I'll explain them again, once you've specified what you mean by 'this': this thread involves numerous issues, after all.

And don't even bother trying to pin arrogance on me simply because I am capable of invalidating your statements with common knowledge and some simple analysis.

Quote[/b] ]Oh Xavery, here's something fresh for you so that you can see for your own eyes that the M.E. affairs dont affect the Netherlands

Hmm, I've said it before but I'll say it again: try reading what people write. Don't just glance over it and hit the reply button, really READ it. What I said was that the idea of modelling our legislature and the handling of internal affairs after the dysfunctionalities of ME countries was ridiculous at best. As to the article you quoted: getting involved in an unlawful war in Iraq, led by a country not wary of using Christian war-time terminology was bound to cause a reaction sooner or later. You'd have to be simple not to expect that.

Anyway, back to the news: since November 5th, 11 mosques and Islamic buildings have been assaulted in one way or another - arson, molotov cocktails, explosives etc. 5 churches have also been the target of arson. Can anyone say downward spiral?

[iNeo 0]

Can anyone say downward spiral?

Downward spiral.

See how great this "multi-culture" trend works out.

[Postduifje 0]

He was a dutchman in all ways.

Except ethnical. Would he still have killed if he was Dutch?

I'm with Ironsight & Lt Hunter, if they can't "behave" they've got no right to stay, in my eyes.

There's no such thing as a dutch ethnicity. Why do you think any of us have the right to live here anywhere? Just because a dozen generations ago our family lived in this neighbourhood when they called out the kingdom? This is just a piece of earth, dirt, that's all it is. The ony reason why we should stop everyone from living here is because there frankly isn't enough room to house all and people are leaving everything behind for empty expectations about the life here. Some people get a strange feeling of power over others when they live longer on the same place, which is totally misplaced

[Acecombat 0]

Quote[/b] ]But I do have a problem with a person killing another person because of his (outspoken) views.

DO you have any idea how this whole thing started?

The same crap thing which Theo did was done by the mullahs here and the result is well you can see 'the whole war on terror' thing. Do you want that to happen at your place too? maybe it might not happen because to even become a pure retarded racist you have to have some guts to dish out destruction and violence , mr theo obviously given his state didnt have them if he did i wont doubt that he could have also done the same as any terrorist.

[iNeo 0]

There's no such thing as a dutch ethnicity.

Since when? To what ethnicity would the Dutch people belong if there was no Dutch etnicity?

Quote[/b] ]Why do you think any of us have the right to live here anywhere?

Because there is only one people and that is Human? Bah.

Quote[/b] ]Just because a dozen generations ago our family lived in this neighbourhood when they called out the kingdom?

People united and fought for their borders. The peoples of today are all children of these men that founded their nations, and each people has a common culture. Mixing very different cultures doesn't work out very well as you probably can tell by now.

[Acecombat 0]

Quote[/b] ] Mixing very different cultures doesn't work out very well as you probably can tell by now.

It would if people for once start bloody tolerating one and another .

You think keeping everyone locked in their countries would help here? YEah i can imagine what that would give rise too , a crap load of unfounded steroetypes generated by the right wingers then again and more wars , this was what it was like back in the Dark ages , medieval times and so on , everyone locked in their castle no one knowing what the hell the other community is about , and if they get fed negative propoganda about them then so much for peace ...

[Postduifje 0]

Quote[/b] ]Just because a dozen generations ago our family lived in this neighbourhood when they called out the kingdom?

People united and fought for their borders. The peoples of today are all children of these men that founded their nations, and each people has a common culture. Mixing very different cultures doesn't work out very well as you probably can tell by now.

Borders change, nations change, people change, cultures change. Thank god, and that's often for the good thanks to the mixing of cultures. It's because of the isolation-theory you're talking about that people are loaded with the wrong ideas about other cultures and countries.

Multicultural societies are a fact, the people who are complaining about its failure are the one's who are not integrated.

Quote[/b] ]Since when? To what ethnicity would the Dutch people belong if there was no Dutch etnicity?

ethnicity is a blurry concept in the globilised world we're starting to live in. We are not that different from the countries next to us. The guy was dutch, nothing to it. If we have a clear ethnicity, he was part of it.

[iNeo 0]

Quote[/b] ]Since when? To what ethnicity would the Dutch people belong if there was no Dutch etnicity?

ethnicity is a blurry concept in the globilised world we're starting to live in. We are not that different from the countries next to us. The guy was dutch, nothing to it. If we have a clear ethnicity, he was part of it.

No it's not a blurry concept as long as you don't mix people (not by living together, but by putting people of "hybrid race" to the world).

Neighbouring countries aren't that different in most cases no, but we're talking muslim immigration to Europe, that's not neighbouring countries, nor very similar cultures.

Quote[/b] ]Borders change, nations change, people change, cultures change. Thank god, and that's often for the good thanks to the mixing of cultures. It's because of the isolation-theory you're talking about that people are loaded with the wrong ideas about other cultures and countries.

We never had to bring people from lands far away to have a cultural progress, there was an exchange of cultures anyway through trade etc. What's wrong with tourism?

Quote[/b] ]Multicultural societies are a fact, the people who are complaining about its failure are the one's who are not integrated.

The problem is that it's not easy to integrate people from a very different culture, especially not when you bring lots of them in at the same time, it just "helps" them keep their culture. And you get culture crashes. The integration has failed and I can't really fail my "integration" since I didn't move anywhere. They are the ones who ought to integrate.

[iNeo 0]

You think keeping everyone locked in their countries would help here? YEah i can imagine what that would give rise too , a crap load of unfounded steroetypes generated by the right wingers then again and more wars , this was what it was like back in the Dark ages , medieval times and so on , everyone locked in their castle no one knowing what the hell the other community is about , and if they get fed negative propoganda about them then so much for peace ...

Iceland is a nation with very limited immigration, do you see them acting hostile against anyone? Except for whales.

I can't imagine that "right wingers" would generate stereotypes to make the people desire war if all countries were ethnically homogeneous, that just makes no sense, that's no reason.

In the old days when countries pretty much were ethnically homogeneous, they fought for war trophies, religion and borders. Not because of the possible stereotypes they were told living in the next country.

[denoir 0]

Mixing very different cultures doesn't work out very well as you probably can tell by now.

Of course it works out - you are just focusing on the negative cases.

Do you agree that there are muslims in Europe that fit in well? If some do - as I'm sure you agree is the case - then clearly the culture isn't the main problem.

It's isolation, segregation and education.

[Postduifje 0]

No it's not a blurry concept as long as you don't mix people (not by living together, but by putting people of "hybrid race" to the world).

What's wrong with mixing races and cultures? Maybe it's just the formulation of that sentence, but it sounds a bit like extreme racism where you desire a "pure" race that is superior in your eyes.

Quote[/b] ]Neighbouring countries aren't that different in most cases no, but we're talking muslim immigration to Europe, that's not neighbouring countries, nor very similar cultures.

What I was trying to say is that ethnicity changes gradually. It's is not a black and white descrete prosses, ethnics are continuisly.

Quote[/b] ]We never had to bring people from lands far away to have a cultural progress

The people are seldomly brought as guestworkers, most people move on their own, which should be stimulated as much as possible if it makes them happier.

Quote[/b] ], there was an exchange of cultures anyway through trade etc. What's wrong with tourism?

Just what I said, migration is a natural proces, nothing wrong with it, as is tourism.

Quote[/b] ]The problem is that it's not easy to integrate people from a very different culture, especially not when you bring lots of them in at the same time, it just "helps" them keep their culture. And you get culture crashes. The integration has failed and I can't really fail my "integration" since I didn't move anywhere. They are the ones who ought to integrate.

You're right about the first part, integration does not always runs as smoothly as it should be, but it requires work from both sides. But integration has not failed at all. Many immigrants are perfectly fitted into the system. And you should integrate too, since the development of a society is a proces that comes from both sides. If you fail to integrate into the multicultural society, it's your wrong, not everyone elses.

[Acecombat 0]

You think keeping everyone locked in their countries would help here? YEah i can imagine what that would give rise too , a crap load of unfounded steroetypes generated by the right wingers then again and more wars , this was what it was like back in the Dark ages , medieval times and so on , everyone locked in their castle no one knowing what the hell the other community is about , and if they get fed negative propoganda about them then so much for peace ...

Iceland is a nation with very limited immigration, do you see them acting hostile against anyone? Except for whales.

I can't imagine that "right wingers" would generate stereotypes to make the people desire war if all countries were ethnically homogeneous, that just makes no sense, that's no reason.

In the old days when countries pretty much were ethnically homogeneous, they fought for war trophies, religion and borders. Not because of the possible stereotypes they were told living in the next country.

Sorry i disagree looks like were not integrating here

You chose Iceland as a model for all? Iceland is a small country they dont influence world politics or anything , they cant be used in this argument. Imagine a big influential country closing down itself and then see what happens , see Russia during the old soviet days when people were brain washed in to believing whatever the govt wanted them to do , during the whole EAST/WEST germany fiasco how many ordinary soviet men/women were used as spy's by KGB they were told nonsense about the west and that capitalism is crap and all and america evil and finally persuaded people to carry out their acts in the name of patriotism. That happened because those people lived in the so called 'iron curtain' they hardly knew what the other side of the world was like many still dont. Look at Japan (old) , afghanistan etc etc at a social level their evolution of understanding and tolerating other culutres to an extent has been halted because of isolation.

And plz dont under estimate the whole right-wing nut going nuts over such a scenario because thats exactly what used to happen in the past. You say :

In the old days when countries pretty much were ethnically homogeneous, they fought for war trophies, religion and borders.

And how do you suppose they were motivated in the false guise of the said issues 'war trophy , religion , border'. What were the reasons given to go to war ? Surely it wasnt lets go start a war because we need a bigger border? or trophy? Surely not it was because of peoples narrow minded views on each other they were told they were superior and others werent or they were right on a said issue and others wasnt and so forth , the soldiers that fought wars didnt fight just for fun they went for some brainwashed reason. And very rarely do we see a just war either conducted in the name of religion or some other one in history.

[denoir 0]

You're right about the first part, integration does not always runs as smoothly as it should be, but it requires work from both sides. But integration has not failed at all. Many immigrants are perfectly fitted into the system. And you should integrate too, since the development of a society is a proces that comes from both sides. If you fail to integrate into the multicultural society, it's your wrong, not everyone elses.

Well put, I couldn't agree more

[Supah 0]

You're right about the first part, integration does not always runs as smoothly as it should be, but it requires work from both sides. But integration has not failed at all. Many immigrants are perfectly fitted into the system. And you should integrate too, since the development of a society is a proces that comes from both sides. If you fail to integrate into the multicultural society, it's your wrong, not everyone elses.

Very much agreed. Though cultural diversity is a good thing in the end. The basis of modern society is respect. When respect is gone society will unravel.

[JdB 151]

According to reporters at the scene they were "Talking" to muslim youths and that escalated. Having some experience with them I can tell you talking ADO supporter style is calling people whores,

Well, I agree that they are probably the worst hooligans we have in the Netherlands (and that people like that should be dealt with as well), but aren't some Imams also infamous for calling people without headscarfes ''whores'', and some even go as far as calling every Dutch women a ''whore'' because they are not ''pure''?

@ Sole: Thanks for also knowing your facts

Not exactly the article I was searching for, but still interesting: Link (sorry, in Dutch)

[xawery 0]

You're right about the first part, integration does not always runs as smoothly as it should be, but it requires work from both sides. But integration has not failed at all. Many immigrants are perfectly fitted into the system. And you should integrate too, since the development of a society is a proces that comes from both sides. If you fail to integrate into the multicultural society, it's your wrong, not everyone elses.

Very much agreed. Though cultural diversity is a good thing in the end. The basis of modern society is respect. When respect is gone society will unravel.

Let me add to this that accepting different cultures into their midst isn't some recent phenomenon for the Dutch. Over the centuries, the Netherlands were a haven for e.g. the Huguenots and Sefardic Jews: ethnic and religious groups whose cultures differed a great deal from the Dutch. Of course this wasn't sheer altruism - the Dutch profited immensly from the knowledge these people brought in. Just as the Dutch profited from the Turkish and Moroccan immigrants in the 60/70s, by having them perform work the Dutch themselves couldn't be arsed to do.

Sadly, for some people integration isn't enough: they desire assimilation, and that's when the shit starts to hit the fan.

[Supah 0]

Well, I agree that they are probably the worst hooligans we have in the Netherlands (and that people like that should be dealt with as well), but aren't some Imams also infamous for calling people without headscarfes ''whores'', and some even go as far as calling every Dutch women a ''whore'' because they are not ''pure''?

If calling muslims "goatfuckers" is exercising freedom of speech then calling dutch women "whores" and "unpure" is so too. Freedom of speech doesn't only apply to people who are saying what you want to hear.

[SandVoss 0]

Quote[/b] ]If calling muslims "goatfuckers" is exercising freedom of speech then calling dutch women "whores"  and "unpure" is so too. Freedom of speech doesn't only apply to people who are saying what you want to hear.

I agree. but many Muslims have pushed it too far, by for example publishing a book (Way of the Islam) that explains how one can properly kill a homosexual (trowing him from a building upside down). Or Islamic clerics in the Netherlands exclaiming that all homosexuals and Jews should be killed. Thats not freedom of speech, thats abusing your right to speak your mind.  

[JdB 151]

I agree. but many Muslims have pushed it too far, by for example publishing a book (Way of the Islam) that explains how one can properly kill a homosexual (trowing him from a building upside down). Or Islamic clerics in the Netherlands exclaiming that all homosexuals and Jews should be killed. Thats not freedom of speech, thats abusing your right to speak your mind.

Yep. Priests in the Netherlands don't go calling muslims animalnames or calling them stupid or whatever (at least not for the last 100 years or so). Van Gogh was one of the few people to actually say stuff like that.

Judaism, christianity, hinduism and budhism are much older religions, and are what they call ''peacefull'' religions. Throughout the ages, these religions have learned to respect eachother (more or less). Islam is not really that old (something like 1400 years), and hasn't yet ''calmed down''.

If you come to think of it, alot of the modern day wars involve Islam one way or the other (either through provocation by another party, terrorism or genocide).

Islam is used as an excuse to create tension between religions, because Islam itself is quite a peacefull religion (just look at Spain, muslims and christians lived peacefully together for over 800 years).

[xawery 0]

Christianity is as violent as any other monotheistic religion. Don't you know your history? Or let me put it differently: Christianity an sich is quite a peaceful religion, it's just a shame that no one has ever tried it... Catholics, Protestants... Have you looked at Belfast the last couple of decades? Mutually exclusive religions will always cause tensions.

[JdB 151]

Christianity is as violent as any other monotheistic religion. Don't you know your history?

With extra attention going to the word ''history''

''We'' (as in the Netherlands) haven't really fought anyone because of their religion the last 200 years.

Wars in colonies --> Imperialism

WW1 --> Neutral

WW2 --> Were invaded by one of the most crazy regimes ever.

Korea --> UN mandate, fought to keep a friendly nation free.

After that the role of the Dutch army/navy/airforce was mostly based on peace keeping missions.

Only the airforce did some offensive operations over the former Yugoslav Republic and Afghanistan.

None of the wars we fought were based on religion, although the uprise in Indonesia was partially fueled by Islam (and the wish of the Indonesians to be free of course). No religious intention on our part.

[JRMZ 0]

I think all religions have violent and non violent people. But the ones frightening me the most are the extreme islam groups. I think it's because we don't understand why and what they are fighting for.

In general the islam is a very peacefull belief. It doesnt state anywhere that they should kill christians and certainly not during ramadan (!). What we are dealing with here in the Netherlands are some rotten apples who have to be terminated. Not only on the islam side, but also on the christian side.

So like Bush stated at 9/11:

We will hunt down and punish all those responsible for these cowardly acts.