What is the communities opinion on....

[Pathy 0]

I've already been trying 3 months Avon

[philcommando 0]

LOL!!!@laulau....u said it right - DID ANYONE ASK BIS FOR PERMISSION TO MODIFY ITS MODELS? hell!..where did u think the know-how and technical knowledge came from? All addons no matter how great or lousy comes from a single source - BIS. Fortunately BIS has no hang ups or at least had one eye closed in order that the community can progress, thanks to many other like-minded individuals who have no fear of sharing knowledge and techiniques to others making ofp what it is today - better, faster and enjoyable than it was it several years ago.

However, on the addon-makers side of view...he has very little to work on and when after several weeks or months of experimenting and creating something improved upon..someone else just push a pixel,move a vertex and change a line in the config and call it a further improvement and claim credit for himself. Is it fair?

Personally i dont use other's models ( except for blinky's amazon pack which he requested from me for asistance to work on it a year ago..still have his mail), rather prefer to create my own or use ofp's( they stand to benefit too)..more fun that way...and if someone else can do a better job than me, by all means use it and do so..just make it better - i dun need the credits, JUST LET ME HAVE THE MODEL..cos i play ofp too!

So i guess its up to the individual addon maker...if he doesnt mind, go right ahead the whole hog..but if he doesnt reply..perhaps there may be better alternatives than using someone else's work?

I would say just do it! and take the flak latter. History is replete with incidences such as these anyway. If bill gates had not improve upon IBM's comp...u think we could communicate and play games like now? If the guy who invented the stone wheel and stop everyone from improving on it, u think we'll have car sports rims today? LIghten up guys, dont be selfish...the only constant is change..gotta keep improving. Have fun!

[Heatseeker 0]

No contact = no permission.

Using others work without permission is wrong.

Cant contact him? Too bad.

BIS addons? We payed for them.

User addons? A free gift that we should respect if we want to see more.

Simple .

[Pathy 0]

When all due attempts have been made to contact the author, isnt it just a waste to NOT use them? We can assume HYK either has left the community, died, or just doesnt care.........if Combat released thier models and never recieved any complaint or response off HYK, i think this is fair to say......

So because someone isnt part of the community for whatever reason, we should forego editing thier work and producing better things, purely because we CAN'T get permission, no matter how hard we try? Its a tough question, but, i cant help feeling philcommando has it on the head.

[Asmodeus 0]

Yeah, if it was me... I wouldn't care.  I know certain people feel differently, but I don't.  I make no money (yet) off of what I do for OFP and I think it's cool if people want to learn/use from what I do.  

I will ask you this Pathy:

A.  How sure are you that the contact method you are using is/was current?

B.  Does this addonmaker check these forums?  If not, have you posted in forums he is likely to check?

The point I'm trying to make is have you exhausted all efforts to contact him?  If so then I say go for it and comply with any problems he may have at a later time.

Asmo

[subfaction 0]

I'd go for it, as long as its a good job and you credit the author, then i personally would'nt mind, i guess i'd be kinda honoured.

Its all about respect at the end of the day, you have tried to get in touch, which is the right thing to do, just make sure you give him the proper credit.

[Goeth 0]

Well for one,it would be easier for us to see the way people are thinking about this,and i would like to know your reason why it shouldn't be a "Vote".I'm guessing your against the idea of Pathy using HYK's units.Voting is a diplomatic way of finding out how people feel towards a certain subject.Are you affraid the votes will be in favour of the "Use the addon but with an acknowledgement in the readme" people.

Because it´s the right thing to do not to vote, you can´t start voting about some one else´s work.

[mr reality 0]

@ July 25 2004,12:26)]Because it´s the right thing to do not to vote, you can´t start voting about some one else´s work.

No offence,but can you read ok... .This isn't about someone's work.Its about being able to use there work as a base model.

If you don't like the idea of using an addon from someone who used another  without the "Full" authority then don't download it.Pretty simple realy.You few people who seem to think that its some kind of theft don't have to download it and wouldn't that be your way of saying you don't agree..I like many others think a mention in the readme is fine.

I would also like to know how many of the people who disagree with using HYK's have downloaded CBT's bradley or M113 pack.

[scfan42 0]

I have to say that most addon makers would want their addons not only to be good and playable, but also be used to help other addon makers make high-quality addons as well, which is what the spirit of a community is about, and I'm pretty sure nobody has been able to contact Hyk since he released his 1.02 US Infantry pack (he posted a couple posts after the release, but not more than a week)

[Landwarrior87 0]

I would also like to know how many of the people who disagree with using HYK's have downloaded CBT's bradley or M113 pack.

I agree 100% with that one.. how many people have the Bradley's and M113's?? EVERYONE WHO POSTS HERE! how many complaints have they had about it none??? because once you guys saw how good everything was put together and the credit was given it was ok.

Pathy theres nothing more really to talk about you've tried for 3 months, were all assuming in the readme your going to give cedit where it is do, go for it. And i wish you the best of luck!

[SelectThis 0]

No permission, no use.

Anything else is just too subjective.

SelectThis

[CanadianTerror 0]

I dont understand the problem here...its freeware.

I totally dont agree with ripping off someone's work and giving no credit but this is different. I sort of see why people say that if he isnt around, leave his work alone but this isnt exactly criminal intent here.

Quote[/b] ]I would also like to know how many of the people who disagree with using HYK's have downloaded CBT's bradley or M113 pack.

I have to agree with that 100% as well.

[SelectThis 0]

As one of the people that "disagrees" I can say that I have not downloaded CBT's Bradleys or M113s.

and guys, this is not about Pathy or CBT, it's about respecting the work of the original addon maker. The tools available to the community makes it extremely easy for anyone to grab someone's addon and take it apart and use for their own work. I have nothing against someone taking something apart to learn from it, I do have something against someone then using that without permission.

The issue here is where does one draw the line about trying to obtain permission. Can you put a time limit on when, if no reply back is received, then you can assume permission is granted? I don't think you can. THe only "respectful" position is to say that unless positive affirmation has been received you must assume that no permission has been given.

SelectThis

[Bobcatt666 0]

A new creation such as HYK's units which he spent a great deal of time in reserching, I would use for private use like a number of mods I've done off his units. I never go public with them like I bothered going in and fixing most of the bugs on them and made new units, but its still his _@copyrighted_ work.

so unitl I have his say so it not gonna be released. seeing tons of people lack ethics in the OFP community anyway its a mute point. Just gaurentees that well not see addons like that in the furture cause its a waste of effort. People taking short cuts cause they lack the ability to do it from scratch themselves. The claim of trying to contact folks and doing it anyway is lame, some people lose ISPs and change email adresses, or these addon makers who are truely good, mostlikely got swallowed up by real game projects nad don't have time to answer or respond to pester mail. I'm sure folks spammed HYK moaning cause they didn't use Earl's or Suchies weapons or other lame things, which I woiuldh ave been personally set off by it. Already freely editable units Karrens units I think how its spelled, and the BAS SDK kit.

Like maybe people have lives outside of OFP?

Seeing you don't know what happend to them for all you know he could be in the Peace keeping force in Iraq right now and unable to bother with it.

Hey your car is out in the parking lot, if you don't answer to my email about taking it in 48 hours, it mine.. Or Might have sent it to the wrong adress but thats ok I'm only gonna wait 48 hours on yah regardless before I steal your stuff. ;)

Think about it.

[Gen.Carnage 0]

Quote[/b] ]Personally, if someone does not reply to emails/pms/etc, and/or makes it impossible to contact them, I would take it as a "I don't really care".  Why?  Because I think its certainly reasonable to to expect someone to make some method of communication available(exceptions would be like if someone was in the military and was being deployed, etc).  And if they don't provide some way of contacting them, then I think it would be safe to assume that they aren't concerned or interested in what happens to their addons.

that is sortof like saying 'wow thats a really nice car in the street, let me try to contact its owner to see if i may fit spoilers, skirts, turbocharger, racing camshafts and oh yeah, a new paint job, so that it, in my opinion, will be an even nicer car.

but damn,  he doesnt reply, so i'll assume that is a yes'

a bit over the top example, but still, i think you get the point.

unless you get permission, you should not use the stuff.

If there is some serious real life shit going on for him, and if he would object to you using the addon, you are setting yourself up for disaster.

Safest way is to make it yourself, if that is too hard for you (but why should it), try using someone else's work. One that does give permission.

[edc 0]

I think if HYK would have really had a problem with people using his work then he:

A) Would have stated "no one can modify this" in his readme

B) Would reply to emails/etc or would give another method of contact

or

C) Would have spoken up when Combat! released their modified stuff of his.

If he comes back later, and says he has a problems with it, then fine, take the addons down, and remove his work from them, but there's no reason why people should be held back because somebody doesn't reply to emails. Honestly, not replying to emails in 2 months is kind of rude. There's no reason to reinvent to wheel and create the same thing over again.

Have you contacted Battle Over Hokkaido to see if they know anything?

If you've done that and they don't know anything more, then just do it. If he cares, then he can email you about it. You were polite enough to take the effort to contact him about it, its not your fault that he hasn't taken the effort respond. If he comes back later and is angry about it, the only person he can be mad at is himself for not providing any valid way to be contacted.

[CanadianTerror 0]

...or just go and use another model/addon as has been previously mentioned.

[scfan42 0]

Have you contacted Battle Over Hokkaido to see if they know anything?

Combat! did try contacting BOH as well, and that also warrented no response.

And the car metaphors are pretty messed up, you have to pay for a car, and you buy it from someone else, Hyk made the infantry, and provided them to the community for free. The only thing he might've paid for is texturing software.

And for the not equiping them with Earl's weapons, one thing is I'm pretty sure the USMC is using A4s well before the Army does, and two that's what a privately modified JAM config is for (Earl's M-249 goes nice with the Automatic Rifleman I added to Hyk's infantry... private of course)

[laulau 0]

that is sortof like saying 'wow thats a really nice car in the street, let me try to contact its owner to see if i may fit spoilers, skirts, turbocharger, racing camshafts and oh yeah, a new paint job, so that it, in my opinion, will be an even nicer car.

but damn,  he doesnt reply, so i'll assume that is a yes'

a bit over the top example, but still, i think you get the point.

unless you get permission, you should not use the stuff.

If there is some serious real life shit going on for him, and if he would object to you using the addon, you are setting yourself up for disaster.

Safest way is to make it yourself, if that is too hard for you  (but why should it), try using someone else's work. One that does give permission.

it's not that it's " a bit over top example", it's just that it's not a good one. Let me explain. A car is not an intellectual property but an object. When you bought it you didn't buy the right to use it but the right to have it. The right to use it depending on the right to have it. You also have the right to modify it the way you want. So if someone steals your car, he steals you the object and the right to use it the way you want to.

When you buy a game, a cd or a book, you buy an object and the right to use it but not to modify it and that's the intelectual property. What is funny is that a lot of addon makers think that what they created is their property but if they used O2 to create their addon it's not only their property but BIS intellectual property too. That's why they're not allowed to make money with it.

So now let's go back to Pathy. Does he steal the HYK units and nobody else but him can use them? No. Even if uses them to make new units, everybody here could use the original HYK units. Does he steal the intellectual property of the HYK units? No, he won't become the one who has the intellectual property on this creation. He's just "quoting" the HYK units. everybody has the right to quote a book, to use part of a music. Most of contemporary artist are using objects, pictures, sounds which are not their property to create new piece of art.

If i wrote all this "bullshit" is just to say that saying "he's stealing" or "he doesn't have the right to do it cause it's HYK units" is a too simple way of thinking. If the community wants to do things legally, i guess that it's far more complicated than the discussions we have here.

Something else which annoying me is that nobody cares if someone modifies a mission or a script made by someone else.

There's also an intellectual property on those things too. Did someone contacted the author of a script or a mission to be allowed to modify it? Let me doubt about it and i'm very happy that it happens this way.

Of course, be polite and ask is nice but if you have no answer back from the author i don't think you should wait for the rest of your life before doing what you want to do.

I have to say that i'm really disappointed to see such discussions. More time goes and less the OFP community is a real community. Being a community is sharing things to get the best we can get from everyone of us. If it's not like it i'd rather be out of the OFP community.

Pathy do what you want to do. You said you tried to contact the author of HYK units, he didn't answer, so make your colombian units.

PS: I hope my english is enough understandable.

[Pathy 0]

...or just go and use another model/addon as has been previously mentioned.

The thing is, what is the point in me making a whole batch of new equipment and textures to put on a base model, which will be vastly inferior (i have nothing like HYK's texture skill, although i COULD do it), when i can save alot of time by simply not duplicating what is already out there.

And at the end of the day, its the OFP community that benefits from it.....i wont get lots of credit for a unit modified off HYK's infantry, i'm not here to get credit, i'm here to make Colombian Soldiers for my mod.....i dont CARE if people dont worship the ground i walk on for them.....you guys will get better units, and all i'm interested in is making the best possible Colombian Soldiers.......

I will go for it, it seems most of the community doesn't have any objections.

Oh and agree with Lau, comparing it to stealing something like a car or house is abit ermm......ridiculous......

[vektorboson 8]

The thing is, what is the point in me making a whole batch of new equipment and textures to put on a base model, which will be vastly inferior (i have nothing like HYK's texture skill, although i COULD do it), when i can save alot of time by simply not duplicating what is already out there.

Dear Pathy,

perhaps you remember my editing-community thread. Now you're stating arguments, you criticized me for. The fact is, you don't have permission.

Perhaps you can tell me, why you turned 180 degrees?

You used OdolEx to convert the model??? How ironic!!!

You started modifying a model before getting permission??? How ironic!!!

I hope you understand that I'm not flaming you for having modified the model to let the community benefit from it.

What does disturb me, is, that you called me having issues for the position you're now in. Perhaps you now understand why I started the thread back then? Perhaps you now understand my arguments back then?

If there is even the slightest chance you understand my critics I stated in that thread, then I say go, release it. If not, I'll keep telling you: You don't have permission.

You and Combat! wouldn't have this problem if every addon maker would ignore his ego and just say in his readme: "Here, take this addon, retexture it, take parts from it, just give me credit." Life would be extremely easier.

[Pathy 0]

Ermm i dont remember any such a thread, although its true i have revised my opinion on alot of things, and not because i have suddenly come into needing to....i have realised that so much time is wasted in the community making what is already released...when my mod is released, it will be open for anyone to use (although binarised to optimize it)....because at the end of the day, there is absolutely zero point in duplication.....

.....but anyway please leave your personal issues out of this. They don't affect HYK's infantry in any way shape or form...if you feel sore because maybe i once disagreed with you in some age old thread, and you cant let it go, then talk to me via PM, but i do not need someone spamming up my thread with some self-righteous drivel.....

...as you said yourself, your only telling me i cant edit them because you have some sort of grudge and you are using this thread for the sole purpose of getting whatever little petty revenge you think your getting....please, leave it out of this thread.

[ozanzac 0]

I'd have no problem with you releasing the add-on with the necessary acknowledgements.

As a side note, I find that you just posing this question and your predicament to the community as very admirable. At least you’re not brushing it under the carpet and passing the prior work off as your own.

It’s the people who pilfer other people’s work without acknowledgement who need persecution. Not the honest joes, like Pathy.

[Bobcatt666 0]

Other modles he could aquire permission to modify that are just as good as HYK's. In my book having dealt with other things like this mostly artwork on the interneat its just as bad. Using the if their not around ideal if they don't respond they forfit all rights to their work is still wrong. He could very easilly contact laser or even the BAS group, or anyone else who's redon the model to make units.

And saying if HYK shows back up and says no after you have released it once its out it out you cannot recall and Addon ever.. gonna tell everyone to delete their addons. If its against HYK's wishes to have his addon modded. Using CBT as an excuse isn't really bright either, all they did was mostly add them to the config to the armored units and add CVC helmets. They still had nothing else altered CBT had their own Armor crews made off of Shuchies Marines but the guy working on them flaked rather than make people wait months while they try to fix the buggy CBT crews, Rudedog released them with HYK's units.. Think they actually still wear the K-pot now if I recall. CBT intentions on that is the HYK's units were slated to be replaced once they fixed their own CBT_crews and CBT_men for the mod. But I'm sure you didn't bother reading that.

Seeing HYK is part of a whole mod team BOH, kinda you didn't exhaust your chances to contact someone in the mod for permission. Dispite a number of other addon makers showing up in the thread and them being ignored, I'll asume your gonna do it anyway, or have already and using this to see if your gonna get flamed if you release them.. time will only tell...

I just had a bunch of Addons swiped that I've slaved a year over, think I'm gonna waste time working on anymore for public release, your on crack. And threads like this only further convince me I'm right in keeping stuff among the clans and inner mod groups. I recall folks releasing stuff with Marfy's textures on it without his permission and getting flamed into submission. Or other addon makers who don't read forums and just produce addons.

Maybe for OFP II they should change the system so Addons are charged for like on Xbox live and people can moan about spending money on addons. But them just cause more stealing and pircey online, not like there isn't enough already.. ;)

[CanadianTerror 0]

If you dont enjoy it then dont do it.

its easy as that.

A couple of people post that "to them" its no big deal to just ask permission and give credit...next thing all the addon makers have twisted panties.