Does the uk belong into europe

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

before answering or voting read this

Blair confirms EU referendum gamble

I wonder what the outcome will be caue the price of the gamble is high. If only a single nation of the EU votes against a european constiution then it will basically be deemed to fail. Maybe Blair is approaching the issue a bit too agressive/progressive for the famous british conservative mind. Especially now due to the War in Iraq and the complex trouble between US/EU this is a pretty risky step to take. What do you think?

Read also this Germany says UK referendum won't derail charter

[ran 0]

As a frenchman, i'm not really able to answer (I have some kind of bias you know ...)

[Gadger 0]

I'm Welsh, I don't want to be part of the UK nevermind Europe

[Badgerboy 0]

I'm Welsh, I don't want to be part of the UK nevermind Europe  

After all the money the Welsh assembly has pissed away, I'm glad we are part of the UK. If we ran the country ourselves, we'd only fuck it up...

[HotShot 0]

I'm Welsh, I don't want to be part of the UK nevermind Europe  

After all the money the Welsh assembly has pissed away, I'm glad we are part of the UK. If we ran the country ourselves, we'd only fuck it up...

LOL, too true! Soon the rocket boosters will be attached, and off you go, out into the Atlantic (along with N. Ireland)

As an Englishman, can't say i'm bothered if we're in or out so long as we dont get the Euro.

[EiZei 0]

As an Englishman, can't say i'm bothered if we're in or out so long as we dont get the Euro.

I was wondering, why? Is the reason economical or is it a nationalistic thing?

[Goeth 0]

Voted no. They should tow their land beside US and live with them happily ever after.

[Llauma 0]

@ April 20 2004,21:00)]Voted no. They should tow their land beside US and live with them happily ever after.

Maybe they could use the rockets from the Iraqi WMD's and attach them to UK so it would hopefully move closer to USA.

This isn't a stupid idea.. If so then show me proof that it's impossible. I have reliable sources that says it's possible but you can't see them.

[Winters 1]

wow, any chance to bash away at the US, you guys have some issues.

[ralphwiggum 6]

indeed. please stick to topic. flame baiting/flaming will not be tolerated.

[dm 9]

As an Englishman, can't say i'm bothered if we're in or out so long as we dont get the Euro.

I agree with the second part, but not with the first...

Europe has caused nothing but trouble for us (a few wars and stuff like that) but a LOT closer to home, is all the litigation, all the new laws, all the new CRAP that we have to go through in order to do the most simple of tasks.

Health & Safety for example. Now I understand and appreciate that we all need to be healthy and safe whilst we work, but its gone from the sublime to the ridiculous...

As an example, at my Air Cadet squadron, we cant even go out the front door onto the field without filling in a health and safety risk assessment. JUST to go out onto the field... If we want to do sports, or any form of training, we have to fill in ANOTHER risk assessment... Crazy...

Also, remember the BSE "incident" a few years ago? (must be about 10 now )

We (the British) were shat upon by the EU, yet when a similar incident happened in France, the EU gave them full support...

I think that Europe should be Europe, and the UK have nothing to do with their sordid affairs... I mean, waste €billions every 6 months moving the EU's headquaters?!?! I think not matey...

Up with "Fortress Britain" and all that

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

During my time in Malta and meeting tons of british tourists I noticed the following.

British generally do not like to be part of a "big thing". I think it has to do with what we call in german "island people". A certain sense of scepticism about all things that may bring along obligations to outsiders, having to stick to foreign standards, being involved in a multinational democracy. It is strange but the usuall perception of the man on the road is that europe would mean loosing full independance to take own decisions.

It is not a question of sympathy. The british do not realy despise germans or french and their racist sense of humor is not meant to be hostile. It is just their love of stereotypes and imagery, and they do not hesitate to make this sort of yokes about themselves too.

It is not based on political orientation though. You are wrong if you believe that the average british believes in the blood-friendship with the US. The british dont believe in any international boundaries. They are somewhat anoyed if you mention that they "followed" the US into the war in iraq.

From a financial point of view the whole discussion about the euro replacing the pound is absolute nonesense. The stock market in Frankfurt is directly linked to the stock market in London. Currency-dependancy between euro and pound is already very tight. The british should however understand that the euro influences the pound and if they do not fully join they will not be able to steer what the EU does to their currency. The pound is already 75% Euro, if they join they will have impact if they dont, the pound will be commanded by the UN

[Scorpio 0]

the pound will be commanded by the UN

Stupid question, but is that a good or a bad thing?

Personally I really don't think I'd ever get used to the value of Euros when buying stuff.

Saying that the action would take a lot of money and time is quite conservative, but I guess it's best spent on better things. Right now theres better things to do then change everything to EU standards and I have noticed that many people don't give a fark about EU anymore.

Isolationism, my friends. Rule, Brits.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Hi Albert,

I dont know if i can answer the poll at the moment. Im not so sure what this 'UK mentality' that you mention is actually supposed to be (or if it is that relevant). I mean certainly we're not as progressive and enthusiastic as those Swedes who... oh no, wait, they voted against the Euro didnt they! Wow, surely this is not possible for non Sun reading modern europeans? I guess they must not have inherited enough european sense yet. Or maybe they simply have another idea about what being european means? Is this not allowed?

Those who have so far held up this constitution are Spain and Poland over voting rights. The UK referendum will almost certainly not come before the end of the year (probably later) and will likely follow referenda in other countries (unless those are 'no' votes) such as Ireland. Last time Britain voted on the EU (in the '70s) the result was positive, though the conditions of the vote were different to today.

Albert Schweizer-

Quote[/b] ]British generally do not like to be part of a "big thing"

Yes we do, we just dont like to be a part of someone elses 'big thing'. When its our big thing we're pleased as punch (but unlike France or Germany we have always tried to build our empires of rule or influence outside of western europe). So i blame, in part, the EU for not doing enough to appeal to the British people. Im serious, the EU seems like a foreign and alien structure especially in its more bureaucratic expressions. Theres an ocean between the EU legislature and the people of Britain, not only geographically but culturally, its hardly surprising if we feel isolated from what goes on there and so a little less than ecstatic.

Quote[/b] ]From a financial point of view the whole discussion about the euro replacing the pound is absolute nonesense.

Thats not exactly a hard fact. Many would and do argue quite the opposite (including a friend of mine doing a degree in business-i make no claim to fully understand the financial arguments).

a bit rushed, more later

[KEVBAZ 0]

as a english man i want nowt to do with europe, and they can keep that euro of theirs, long live the pound

[monkeygoat 0]

I'm english and I'd like to see closer ties with Europe and less with the Usa. Can't really say I care that much about whether or not we keep the pound.

[HotShot 0]

As an Englishman, can't say i'm bothered if we're in or out so long as we dont get the Euro.

I was wondering, why? Is the reason economical or is it a nationalistic thing?

Economic. I think it get's dragged down by other nations poor economy. Its not so bad now as it was, but that could easily change. I prefere that our (british) money can be adjusted by us, and is not controlled by other countries too.

[MLF 0]

its not the mentality that is wrong its the fact that the EU is extremely corrupt atm and all these stupid EU laws overuling our own, no thanks and a EU defence force, don't make me laugh.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Its funny how the Sun/News of the World/Daily Mail readers go on about the EU parliament trying to remove more and more sovereignty from Britain, yet Mr Cook (or whoever the Foreign Secretary is) managed to cede more sovereignty to the US than what the EU ever took by allowing that America may demand the extradition of British citizens at any time without any justification.

Really funny that the American owned rubbish tabloid papers never picked up on that, but when it comes to changing the colour of price tags, its all about "OMG, EU wants to eat us alive"

I would take a careful look at who exactly owns the 3 largest tabloids

In any case, I quite like living in England and sort of understand the sentiment behind not wanting to be too close to the EU, and I have to say that if they don't want to be any more closer, Brown and Blair should STFU and listen to their population for once. I also want Britain to keep the Pound, as one of the strongest economies in the world can only get ruined by adopting the Euro.

Once the British economy starts going downhill in a decade or so, then they can join to turn things round

[denoir 0]

Europe is family That's all I have to say

[Donnervogel 0]

I would not say the UK is not compatible with the EU. But I'd say leave those who don't want to follow aside. Those nations who follow the european idea shouldn't be hindered in their progress. It may be undemocratic but having no constitution is not compatible with the idea of a modern democracy too.

Europe needs a constitution. If some members are not ready for progress they shall wait. I know of what I speak here. I'm Swiss ;) We're late in everything.

Besides I find the idea of a referndum great. ;)

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

1: lol, if they join later they will loose voting rights! Thats for sure

2: being a strong economy? (compared to europe   ). doesnt mean you cant get stronger. And to call the pound "strong" compared to the record-high euro is more than just funny.

3. Not participating and being able to vote in something that heavily influences your export results is pride for nothing.

4. The ones of you familiar with corporate finance know that what is important for a company is the free cashflow. But freecashflow is only optimised if all uncertainty factors are minimised. And sorry to remind you but forecasting exchange rates is the biggest uncertainty factor of a future investment. The current state of the euro has already screwed up most of your funds europewide. But that of course doesnt make it into the news cause people dont get it.

5. The EU is an alliance not a centralisation of power. Certain european standards have to be implemented in order to streamline business practices. Let me give you an example. The US civil air supervision is much more efficient because they have established a nation wide standard. In europe however each country has its own standards and therefore supervision consumes much more capital than abroad. Reducing these costs would consequently mean being more competitive to tackle foreign airlines.

6. Considering the economical power of the EU they are already able to develop invisible barriers to entry to british products. Whether you like it or not but selling products to british isnt sufficient,. you need entire europe as a market. BSE is only one example of how you can get screwed if you have zero to no voting rights

7. A european government may be rigid but it can diminish the fatal decisions of a bad president. And sorry to mention that Blair is a pittiful politician as far as internal affairs are concerned.

8. It is nothing new that england has a problem with illegal immigration. France couldnt care less if immigrants cross the channel to dover. All that would HAVE To be different if the UK would become a FULL EU member. Not to speak about the possibilities of tackling organised crime with an internation police network

9. 90% of the british people have zero clue about the impact of introducing the EURO. Their opinion stems from prejudice and ignorance, and some are even proud of it. Germany is showing a bad performance right now. Our unemployment rate is rigid at the rate of 10% and the national deficit, well lets not talk about it. Still the euro remains strong and still rises against the dollar. Soon the OPEC will trade in EURO and many asian countries will exchange their national deposit into euros. God safe the Pound then. Did you ever think about the fact that if you would join now or later the pound would be set to a little tiny exchange value to the Euro, compared to what it was before. British tourists in Malta were alreay crying because they wont be able to finance their hollidays once Malta gets the EURO. And dont be ridiculous to compare yourselves with switzerland. I know their industry in and out and trust me there is no comparison to it in entire europe. Their industry focus is totally different from Monaco, UK, Lichtenstein, Luxembourg... you name it.

10. Last but not least let us mention that fact that the economy in the UK is far from being brilliant as well. Your economy is on a downturn as well and needs urgent restructuring. So dont paint the picture of a country that can only go down. Or do you want me to compare the average income of a german to that of a brit, I wouldnt advise you to do so. While East Germany still makes the entire nation suffer in an economical context it is still doing great in exports. And joining the EU was even better for an export country like ours.

11. Wouldnt it be great if you could easily claim a certain finanical support all over europe. Join any university you would like to join, live and settle everywhere where you like it? Or do you prefer living in the UK for all your live and hardly being able to finance your hollidays in Mallorca.  

From a german point of view I am proud what we (the europeans have achieved) not to long ago my nation was killing and masacring your grandparents. Still objectivity and focus on the future and that of our children made europe set its grieve beside. I am damn proud of calling myself european. I am proud of speaking in the interest of others, of defending the french, the italians, the greeks in a discussion as "they are one of us".

Through centuries europe was a place of war, for once and for all this possibility is gone! (Helmut Kohl)

For myself I can say I am proud to be able to say: whatever the US dicatates, we do what we want because now we are powerful enough" (without being antiamerican, dont get me wrong, I just hate being dictated)

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Quote[/b] ]In any case, I quite like living in England and sort of understand the sentiment behind not wanting to be too close to the EU, and I have to say that if they don't want to be any more closer, Brown and Blair should STFU and listen to their population for once. I also want Britain to keep the Pound, as one of the strongest economies in the world can only get ruined by adopting the Euro.

Once the British economy starts going downhill in a decade or so, then they can join to turn things round

Exactly Ex-RoNiN, i think thats a pretty widespread view. This is supposedly about the constitution and not the euro but there are obviously links between the two, at least in peoples minds. Im in favour of Britain being in the European Union in principle, with all that entails, but when it comes to economic union the traditional British view of not changing what is working perfectly well to start with seems quite sensible and intelligent at a time when the British currency and economy are both strong and employment figures must be among the best in europe (i would guess), in my local area there are reportedly some 500,000 jobs available. Where would be the sense in changing now to a different currency, that shared by economies in very different circumstances? Countries are rarely selfless and idealistic when it comes to economic prosperity. Why gamble?

And so the constitution. People will no doubt say, 'what is the point' that they are happy with what they have now or even (the more euroskeptic) that it is harmful and infringes on national sovereignty. I think it does have a point in as much as it clarifies issues like immigration, cross border policing, enviromental conservation projects etc but some of the other stuff does seem a little overblown to me and even faintly ludicrous. Well maybe thats just the mood im in tonight..

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Damn Albert beat me to it..

Quote[/b] ]7. A european government may be rigid but it can diminish the fatal decisions of a bad president. And sorry to mention that Blair is a pittiful politician as far as internal affairs are concerned

Sorry to mention it but im not sure you know what the hell youre talking about. Which of Blairs domestic political projects (if this is what is meant by 'internal affairs') do you disagree with or think he has handled 'pitifully' (compared to any other British prime minister of modern times) and which opposition party or Labour figure would you have running our country instead? Blair isnt a president and so i might assume you are referring to the US when you speak of diminishing the fatal decisions of a bad president but that isnt clear so ill avoid commenting on it.

Quote[/b] ]It is nothing new that england has a problem with illegal immigration. France couldnt care less if immigrants cross the channel to dover. All that would HAVE To be different if the UK would become a FULL EU member. Not to speak about the possibilities of tackling organised crime with an internation police network

Umm, we are a full member?  

Presumably you mean that joining the Euro will make our assylum problem disappear? Nonsense.

I cant see what other step you imply us taking to 'full' EU membership that we havent already taken. The constitution vote has yet to be taken along with those of 7 or 8 other EU countries. Besides which, we are not the only members of the EU outside the Euro. If you were only referring to us ratifying the constitution then i agree that it contains measures to tighten cooperation on immigration which are most welcome. I agree that more integration is greatly needed in combatting organised crime and various international criminal enterprises as well. Please do not confuse the constitution with the Euro though.

Quote[/b] ]. 90% of the british people have zero clue about the impact of introducing the EURO. Their opinion stems from prejudice and ignorance

They are ignorant and prejudiced and have zero clue, you know this because they disagree with you? On the contrary, there are a number of well reasoned economic arguments against Britain joining the EU and many British businesses are against it. If we are all ignorant and prejudiced why dont you educate with your open mind and unjudgmental attitude...

I think there is a case for Britain joining the Euro but i have not been convinced one way or the other so far. In truth noone can tell for sure what effect it would have. Anyway this is a little offtopic as the Euro is a different issue to the constitution and is not even being put to the vote yet.

Quote[/b] ]For myself I can say I am proud to be able to say: whatever the US dicatates, we do what we want because now we are powerful enough" (without being antiamerican, dont get me wrong, I just hate being dictated)

I just dont think British people 'get' this so much. The US is a superpower, so what who cares. We've had nukes for fifty years anyway, noone is going around following the dictations of G.W.B. (we'de all be in trouble in that case) with or without an EU constitution. British people arent great fans of being dictated to either only we seem often to feel affronted at the dictations (or proposed directives) of the EU more keenly that some US foreign policy.

[MLF 0]

i love being able to get 1.7 dollars to the pound and 1.5 euros to the pound.