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Albert Schweitzer

Does the uk belong into europe

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So Customs borders have nothing to do with politics.

Of course it does. Sure and there are other areas that will be affected (how many new jobs in Brussels?) but those are special cases.

If you want to talk work, then you should look at the European work market that is open to you.

Quote[/b] ]So when is Sweeden joining the EU?

We joined in '95.

So you are saying I should move or just commute?

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Total crap.

Come on wife and kids we are moving into the European motherland so daddy can get a job.

No different than "Come on wife and kids we are moving to London so daddy can get a job."

or

"Come on wife and kids we are moving to Scotland so daddy can get a job." or whatever.

Quote[/b] ]Just sit behind your borders and preach mate.

I have worked for a German company and I'm planning to move to south of France for a year or so. smile_o.gif

Sorry my mistake.

My post was edited.

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So you are saying I should move or just commute?

Either move, commute or work for an English branch of some European company right where you are.

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Reading BACK over my posts I realise I have been a bit of a prick. Sorry having a bad day. Redundancy at thirty kind of has that effect.

Please excuse me.

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Reading BACK over my posts I realise I have been a bit of a prick. Sorry having a bad day. Redundancy at thirty kind of has that effect.

Please excuse me.

No problem. I can speak only for myself but I've enjoyed the 'conversation' smile_o.gif

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Europe isn't all butterflies and rainbows, but imho the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages.

Surely,all the new members can't be completely retarded can they?

They see the huge advantages for their trade and economy, and they willingly take all the buraucratic crap and regulations with it, that tells you something.

Being geographically this close to europe, and not wanting anything to do with europe is silly, only exceptions like switzerland can survive it. (especially from a trade oriented country like the UK, not being a member would make all that much more cumbersome.)

I find it strange that there's so much nationalism left in the 21st century, I'm just as proud of being a european as I am being a belgian (maybe even more).

On the euro issue, I don't have much to say, since I'm not well informed enough, but I doubt joining up would hurt the british economy, on the contrary, the UK would probably strengthen the euro by a lot.

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Reading BACK over my posts I realise I have been a bit of a prick. Sorry having a bad day. Redundancy at thirty kind of has that effect.

Please excuse me.

No problem. I can speak only for myself but I've enjoyed the 'conversation' smile_o.gif

lol yeh. "Its good to talk".

Out of my system.

Sorry if I upset anyone.

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Denoir do you think alll contries should have the same laws in every matter or just economicly or what?

Whats the problem in being different if you can still work togeter.

Oh I just reslised a problem if we all become more the same, Brits will have a problem since they drive in the rong side of the road, it would cost enormus sums to change that. biggrin_o.gif

STGN

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Denoir do you think alll contries should have the same laws in every matter or just economicly or what?

Whats the problem in being different if you can still work togeter.

Oh I just reslised a problem if we all become more the same, Brits will have a problem since they drive in the rong side of the road, it would cost enormus sums to change that. biggrin_o.gif

STGN

why having to change it? The people who cannot adapt would soon erase themselves through natural selection (mortal accidents). smile_o.giftounge_o.gif

Maybe we could find a compromise and we all drive in the middle of the road

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Denoir do you think alll contries should have the same laws in every matter or just economicly or what?

Whats the problem in being different if you can still work togeter.

Oh I just reslised a problem if we all become more the same, Brits will have a problem since they drive in the rong side of the road, it would cost enormus sums to change that. biggrin_o.gif

STGN

why having to change it? The people who cannot adapt would soon erase themselves through natural selection (mortal accidents).  smile_o.gif   tounge_o.gif

Maybe we could find a compromise and we all drive in the middle of the road

Well As I am sure that most people dirve in the right side it would be cheapest for the car producers to make right standard.

But you got a point send some Lecerck and Leos to Britain drive in the right side then everybody that did not get it would not get home. crazy_o.gif

STGN

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Denoir-

Quote[/b] ]You can't just pick the parts that you like

You were talking about globalisation i think, but when it comes to the EU specifically why, actually why not? Would the EU collapse if the UK opted out of certain parts of the EU (harmonised taxes, single currency, supremacy of european justice eg)? Whats so wrong with different countries signing up to different levels (at least at first). Why this apparent 'with us or against us' attitude? Isnt this simply  oversimplisitic US style thinking? wink_o.gif

Also its clear just from this thread that caution and anxiety about the EUs effects and even aims are far from being confined to Britain within the EU let alone europe. So why this focus on Britain? I cant help thinking some of it is down to simply a disagreement about Iraq and a feeling that there the British have stopped being good little europeans. But Iraq is really quite a seperate issue much as some find it hard to see it that way.

Albert Schweizer-

Quote[/b] ]In the UK Sir Winston Chruchill will for all times remain the major politician and soul of a Brit. And that simply because he defended his country against intruders! It is the Enemies that shape your national ego! That times have the possibility of changing things is in your eyes a fake excuse for a german to win back power. Maybe you remember the day when Thatcher came forward with a map of Nazi Germany and said "the germans want the european union? ...this here is what they realy want back". And I believe that deep deep down in most british hearts everyone believes that.

Rubbish. 'Adolph Hitler will for all times remain the major politian and soul of a German. And that simply because he drove the german people to seeming greatness with fascist  expansionist policies and then was defeated and loathed! It is this split between great self pride in german accomplishments and self loathing with readiness to falsely identify other nations impulses with your own past impluses that shapes your national ego! That times have changed is an excuse to assume that only your ideas of europe are now the best and anyone who disagrees is living in the past.'

See how ludicrous such base generalisations are? Of course all countries are in part shaped by their past experiences and WW2 was a most influential period but it is not Germanys exclusive privilage to also be shaped by hopes for the future. But recognise this: There is more than one possible and legitimate future of europe.

"I believe that deep deep down in most british hearts everyone believes that. "

Now whos paranoid? I am British. I do not believe this.

Albert Schweizer-

Quote[/b] ]Now the money looks pretty boring

Its called the Euro  biggrin_o.gif

Seriously, i think there are many potential and already realised positive effects of the EU but i dont see that this aggressive delineation of what nations must or must not do or people must or must not think in order to be good europeans is necessarily helpful. Also there are certainly plenty of less than attractive sides to the EU which may or may not be positively affected by this constitution.

I simply dont think theres only one vision of the EU, there is still an argument about what being in the EU should or must mean especially now there are so many new members joining and even more being considered.

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Denoir-
Quote[/b] ]You can't just pick the parts that you like

You were talking about globalisation i think, but when it comes to the EU specifically why, actually why not? Would the EU collapse if the UK opted out of certain parts of the EU (harmonised taxes, single currency, supremacy of european justice eg)?

Im quite certain that EU would become rather inefficient if everybody could just take the juicy bits. Not just the brits.

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Denoir-
Quote[/b] ]You can't just pick the parts that you like

You were talking about globalisation i think, but when it comes to the EU specifically why, actually why not? Would the EU collapse if the UK opted out of certain parts of the EU (harmonised taxes, single currency, supremacy of european justice eg)?

Im quite certain that EU would become rather inefficient if everybody could just take the juicy bits. Not just the brits.

why it have worked so far??

STGN

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It is not us being afraid to be ruled by London. Let me remind you of the slogan "we do not want to get ruled by the germans and the french, generations of our families have fought to prevent that". This is a uniquely british (and danish) slogan and neither the dutch, the poles or the french came up with something simillar.

If I would have ever heard a clear macro-economical SWOT analysis of what the Euro would do to your labour market then I wouldnt have come forward with a statement such as above.  Slogans build on fear (the french, the germans) and irrational arguments (I am happy with what I have) create the impression that there is something hidden in the soul that doesnt want to think objectively. Thinking objectively means not taking the current situation as future situation. As we all know nothing is more flexible than economical performance. You are happy with what you have, but think a few years ahead. Will your children be able to live with the same wealth, the same social security, the same environmental conditions? The wealth of the UK right now is not a reflection of current politics but of changes that were implemented DECADES ago. It is your duty to come up with new changes so your children can also "be happy with what they have".

Some people complain that they loose their jobs right now (please dont feel adressed, it is just a coincidence that I bring up the topic, I dont play around with unemployment). But better now than in the future. There is a transition opportunity from one industry to the other.

But once an industry is totally obsolete, only kept alive through subsidies, then when it busts then there is no more use for the qualifications of the workers . And then suddenly thousands sit on the road. A hole city dies. Remember the coal-miners? When the pits started to close down in the 1980ies cities like Yorkshire were more than just in deep trouble.

Dying industries and high unemployment are hurtful, but they usually the beginning of a healing process IF politicians are willing to go new paths, try new things.

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Denoir do you think alll contries should have the same laws in every matter or just economicly or what?

Whats the problem in being different if you can still work togeter.

Oh I just reslised a problem if we all become more the same, Brits will have a problem since they drive in the rong side of the road, it would cost enormus sums to change that. biggrin_o.gif

STGN

why having to change it? The people who cannot adapt would soon erase themselves through natural selection (mortal accidents).  smile_o.gif   tounge_o.gif

Maybe we could find a compromise and we all drive in the middle of the road

Well As I am sure that most people dirve in the right side it would be cheapest for the car producers to make right standard.

But you got a point send some Lecerck and Leos to Britain drive in the right side then everybody that did not get it would not get home. crazy_o.gif

STGN

I will be waiting on the LHS of the road in my Challenger II.

@Albert Schweizer. Fair points.

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It is not us being afraid to be ruled by London. Let me remind you of the slogan "we do not want to get ruled by the germans and the french, generations of our families have fought to prevent that". This is a uniquely british (and danish) slogan and neither the dutch, the poles or the french came up with something simillar.

If I would have ever heard a clear macro-economical SWOT analysis of what the Euro would do to your labour market then I wouldnt have come forward with a statement such as above.  Slogans build on fear (the french, the germans) and irrational arguments (I am happy with what I have) create the impression that there is something hidden in the soul that doesnt want to think objectively. Thinking objectively means not taking the current situation as future situation. As we all know nothing is more flexible than economical performance. You are happy with what you have, but think a few years ahead. Will your children be able to live with the same wealth, the same social security, the same environmental conditions? The wealth of the UK right now is not a reflection of current politics but of changes that were implemented DECADES ago. It is your duty to come up with new changes so your children can also "be happy with what they have".

Some people complain that they loose their jobs right now (please dont feel adressed, it is just a coincidence that I bring up the topic, I dont play around with unemployment). But better now than in the future. There is a transition opportunity from one industry to the other.

But once an industry is totally obsolete, only kept alive through subsidies, then when it busts then there is no more use for the qualifications of the workers . And then suddenly thousands sit on the road. A hole city dies. Remember the coal-miners? When the pits started to close down in the 1980ies cities like Yorkshire were more than just in deep trouble.

Dying industries and high unemployment are hurtful, but they usually the beginning of a healing process IF politicians are willing to go new paths, try new things.

Well acatualy Denmark stands better than meany other European countries like Germany and Italy can't remember the French. Because our system is differet like our pension depends on how much we work and you just don't get a top pension when your 60, and this is a big problem since espacialy germany and Italy is gonna shrink very much over the next 50 years due to the low child brith that apears in rich countries which mean alot of old people and frew young. Also if Europa starts removing the taxes on third world countries then they will be able to maeksom of the things we do if Robots don't beat em to it, youknow China is the country that is loosing most production work(14%9 in the world more than UK(12%) and USA(10%).

And one of my conserns is again that in a EU state where there are most Germans and French offcause they will have the most ot say beacuse they have most people and ho is gonna care about 5 mio Danes when you got 85 mio Germans just down under?

STGN

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Oh and I forgot that Denmark has done better than Euro contries lately.

STGN

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You were talking about globalisation i think, but when it comes to the EU specifically why, actually why not?

Because when you have 30 states that are supposed to work within a framework, you can't have every country making exceptions to suit them. EU is designed already to be the least common denominator.

Quote[/b] ]Would the EU collapse if the UK opted out of certain parts of the EU (harmonised taxes, single currency, supremacy of european justice eg)? Whats so wrong with different countries signing up to different levels (at least at first).

Yes, the EU would collapse if everybody acted the way that the UK does. The EU is build around the idea of a general cooperation between contries that everybody will benefit from in the long run. It's not about ripping off the other Europeans.

Why do wee need a same basic framework for laws? For the same reason why Scotland, England and Wales have the same basic set of laws. For the same reason why town X and town Y have the same laws. The more you wish to cooperate and work together with other people the more you need to use the same rules. It's as simple as that. And yes things like a common currency and harmonised taxes are very relevant. Every special case is a complication for bot busniesses and people.

Quote[/b] ]Why this apparent 'with us or against us' attitude? Isnt this simply  oversimplisitic US style thinking? wink_o.gif

It's not 'with us or against us' it's 'in our out'. I would not hesitate to say that the UK does far more damage to the EU right now than they contribute. Obviously if the British people are against the EU then they will use the opportunity to sabotage the cooperation at any given instance. So, what will happen if Britain dows not ratify the new constitution (a considerable risk)? You'll have 29 countries wanting it and one completely sabotaging it. If you have no fixed rules then there is no point in having an EU at all. Frankly right now the UK is little more than a pain in the butt. (A few other countries as well)

And it can't go on like this. The reason why the EU is a beaurocratic as it is because they've been trying to define rules that will please everybody. It's impossible to build a consistent framework that way.

It is not a trivial matter. Remember, the Americans had a civil war about it. Right now however the fundamentally good idea of a grand European cooperation is being corrupted by petty special interests from the member countries. Yes, you will inevitably lose some independence and you will have to share power with other European nations. If you are not willing to do that, fine , but then you should not be getting the same benefits as those that are willing to compromise. It's a bit tiresome that the UK willingly and without objection takes EU money and all other perks that come with a membership while at the same time taking a piss on it. Right now Britain is a parasitic presence in the EU. And since the British population seem to dislike the union then what is the point of maintaing this unhealthy relationship?

I mean if you at some future point are interested in real cooperation, then sure, we can take the discussion then. But why should we let you fuck up things for everybody else now?

Perhaps I'll start an European party for the EP focused on giving UK the boot   wink_o.gif

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Yeh well maybe we never wanted to be part of the EU, and just because we are behaving like this just means we are patriotic. Great Britain, Great the important bit, we don't need any EU to make us Great!

crazy_o.gif

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Yeh well maybe we never wanted to be part of the EU, and just because we are behaving like this just means we are patriotic. Great Britain, Great the important bit, we don't need any EU to make us Great!

crazy_o.gif

lol. are you serious tounge_o.gif

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Denoir-

Quote[/b] ]I would not hesitate to say that the UK does far more damage to the EU right now than they contribute.

I disagree with you. UK Rebate(-bbc)

Quote[/b] ]"Downing Street that says that even with the rebate the UK is the second highest contributor to the EU, with Britons paying the fifth highest amount of citizens of any member state.

Without the rebate, Downing Street says, the average Briton's contribution would be four times higher than the average French or Italian person.

We dont take so much in farm subsidies (unlike the French for instance who take a vast chunk), yet we contribute much with what is currently one of the strongest economies. Money isnt everything but there are EU countries who in my opinion contribute less (dont forget 'even' Sweden said no to the Euro)

I wouldnt hesitate either to say that mainland haughtiness and seemingly high handed attitudes can do much to alienate people here from the EU. Everyones acting as though the British have already rejected this constitution which makes me inclined to feel that if theres so much bad feeling and negative perception maybe we really are better off outside the EU.

Id like to go more into specific reasons why the British may find certain things in the constitution objectionable when i have more time but really we might well endorse it anyway.

cobra@pulse-

Quote[/b] ]maybe we never wanted to be part of the EU

Yes we did!

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Denoir-
Quote[/b] ]I would not hesitate to say that the UK does far more damage to the EU right now than they contribute.

I disagree with you. UK Rebate(-bbc)

Quote[/b] ]"Downing Street that says that even with the rebate the UK is the second highest contributor to the EU, with Britons paying the fifth highest amount of citizens of any member state.

Without the rebate, Downing Street says, the average Briton's contribution would be four times higher than the average French or Italian person.

We dont take so much in farm subsidies (unlike the French for instance who take a vast chunk), yet we contribute much with what is currently one of the strongest economies.

I'm talking about political contributions. As for the rebate, it's one of the typically wrong things with the current EU. Yes the CAP sucks and should be rebuilt bottom up. The solution (which btw is a typical EU solution) to appease special interest by giving them special benefits is insane. You can never expect to build a solid system that is primarily based on appeasing individual countries.

Quote[/b] ]Money isnt everything but there are EU countries who in my opinion contribute less (dont forget 'even' Sweden said no to the Euro)

Sweden is almost as bad as Britain IMO. And I'm fairly certain that we will pay dearly for our rejection of the Euro. And I'd say that the core reason is the same as with the British: an irrational form of nationalism. We'll see how happy we'll be in ten years when Bulgaria will be better off than we will.

Quote[/b] ]I wouldnt hesitate either to say that mainland haughtiness and seemingly high handed attitudes can do much to alienate people here from the EU.

Oh, so it is 'us and them' now? rock.gif

Quote[/b] ]Everyones acting as though the British have already rejected this constitution which makes me inclined to feel that if theres so much bad feeling and negative perception maybe we really are better off outside the EU.

Are you saying that there is a chance in hell that it will pass? The impression that I get is that the British are in general so hateful and suspicious about everything even remotely connected to the EU that nothing that furthers the European cooperation could even come close to passing.

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Dont go into debth. Denoir just tried to trigger off that you loose objectivity and say something you didnt mean! tounge_o.gif

The UK is part of the european union, but the general feeling is not "we brits are european". For an english fellow this is just a geographical definition but not one that could give a hint about cultural background of even patriotic pride, there a brit would say "I am bri.i.sh mate!"

If I may talk for myself I dont use "european" simply as a geographical hint but for me there are also certain positive and proud associations. Maybe for a german it is easier since the history of europe is more prestigious than the history of germany. When I say "I am european" I take pride in the association of representing a very divers, higly sophisticated and creative bunch of nations. Nations which take pride in their social security system, in their enivronmentalism and the recent sensitivity in foreign affairs. And BTW I think we should have a european soccer team, which could then play against a south american team or asian team. That would be a battle of the giants!   smile_o.giftounge_o.gif The US is also a very divers and huge nation mixed up of thousands of different cultures. Still they succeed in having a sense of "we". Each State has independant laws as well as national laws. In the end the question remains "are we still too hostile to be a United States of Europe"? What would the US be like if every State would be an independant country, definetly not as rich, as successful and powerful as it is right now. And still people say.. "oh buddy, I am from Michigan, you know what that means"

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