The need for new manpads...

[Beagle 684]

I hate Helicopters, especially since all of them tend to have automatic countermesures...(CM)

I remember a Time when ist was at least sometimes possible to shoot down Helos at long distances with MANPADS.

Nowadays this is impossible, since all new Helo Addons have CM, and even the old ones have them in ECP...

Can't someone make state of the art MANPADS like AIM-92 and IGLA, with Proximity fuse, that can hit CM eqipped Helos at least 50% of the time...

I think this is a badly needed ballance addon.

And don't come with the "Helos with countermesures can't be hit" fairy tale...reality has showed us often enought that it can be done....!

[MEDICUS 0]

Beagle, you are really right.

Nowerdays in OFP it'S nearly impossible to shoot one of the "modern" helis with a Strela or Stinger.

Would be really nice if someone could make one of this new manpads like the Igla (afaik there is one in the FDF-Mod included).

Mfg MEDICUS

[MSpencer 0]

Basically, so what?

This is realistic. Modern accomodations for countermeasures just outsmart handheld SAMs. I won't lie. The IGLA-1 and IGLA-2, as well as the FIM-92, just can't cut it anymore in today's world.

Leave it as it is.

[killagee 0]

Yes agreed! There are many different MANPADS in use today that can outwit CM. ie: Mistral 2 (France) , Starstreak HVM (UK) etc

Long overdue i say!

[miles teg 1]

Basically, so what?

This is realistic. Modern accomodations for countermeasures just outsmart handheld SAMs. I won't lie. The IGLA-1 and IGLA-2, as well as the FIM-92, just can't cut it anymore in today's world.

Leave it as it is.

95% yes. However real life shows that this is not always true. Ancient SA-7's have shot down several helicopters in Iraq even though the countermeasures were activated on these helicopters (which include both flares, IR suppressors, and a laser IR jammer). However often at certain distances these countermeasures do not activate quickly enough or they fail for one reaso or another... or the AA missile gunner gets lucky. Whatever the case, even older SA-7's can bring down the most modern military helicopters under the right conditions.

The more advanced the AA missile, the more difficult for countermeasures to function.

Also as experience in Chechnya has shown modern Russian helicopters can also still be brought down by these handheld AA missiles as well.

So I agree that the current CM systems on the OFP addons need to be adjusted so that they protect the helicopter 85%-95% of the time for Western helicopters and about 75%-80% of the time for East helicopters as most of them lack IR missile detection systems.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[MSpencer 0]

I've still seen that though. Take a BAS Blackhawk, and an MH60L mind you, and hover above 10 AA soldiers. Sometimes you get hit.

[m21man 0]

Shouldn't this just be an adjustment made to the CM scripts on the helos ?

[MSpencer 0]

It will have to be.

[AgentFox2 0]

Agreed on the original post.

Regarding the CM scripts on current addons; My only gripe with those is that they are not (or cannot be, perhaps) weapon-specific. Some weapons are better at defeating countermeasures than others, but unfortunately the CM scripts included in addons are either 100% foolproof, or have a certain failure rate with ANY weapon.

[Pappy Boyington 0]

odd. these "you cant get shot down" rumors i hear. . . with the BAS helos and other ecm helos? ive been flying these ecm equiped helos in "normaly" dangour situations. AA soldier here and there enemy helos with AA missels. and ive had to recover countless number of times from these hits. ive been hit with AA missels about 30 to 40% of the time. now coupe the ecm with emergency manuvers. . .that drops down to 25 to 30% of the time. . . so yea let me know how u did this "i cant be hit by anything" trick cuz im curious

[m21man 0]

Put a flying BAS MH-60 on a map. Surround it with 30 enemy AA soldiers. Watch the CMs do their work.

[thirtyg 0]

Put a flying BAS MH-60 on a map. Surround it with 30 enemy AA soldiers. Watch the CMs do their work.

what i dont like is you surround them with AA-RPG soldiers and the CMs work. That is just BS and totally unrealistic

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]That is just BS and totally unrealistic

Unforutunately, I think you have to class AA RPGs as SAMs in order to get the AI to fire at choppers .

[Pappy Boyington 0]

Put a flying BAS MH-60 on a map. Surround it with 30 enemy AA soldiers. Watch the CMs do their work.

what i dont like is you surround them with AA-RPG soldiers and the CMs work. That is just BS and totally unrealistic

the rpg-aa soldiers eh? i have ahell of a time to get those punks to engage my car. they will waste all their ak ammo on me b4 they use an rpg. . .but using that same soldier in a small arms battle he will shoot me (as a soldier) with an rpg instead of an ak. i blame ECP. ever since i instaleld that the AI has been either cheater level. or comepltly retarded. i parked my car infront of an officer at night .. honked hte horn and he stood there and stared at me. never orderd his men to fire nothin. . untili got out. then i was a threat. i got AI machine gunenrs hitting me with a head shot. from 800m. with a pk. . . WHILE RUNNING. on several ocasions. ill have to reply on your reports my ECP has made the ofp ai FUBAR .and it is hard coded in and the only reason i keep it is the mission editor arrengement.

so your tests might work if the AI was normal and not retarded/cheater level. i just dont get how an AI that engaged a car with a rifel when he is armed with an rpg. . . will then hit me in the face with an rpg when i shoot abck with a rifel.

[thirtyg 0]

i just dont get how an AI that engaged a car with a rifel when he is armed with an rpg. . . will then hit me in the face with an rpg when i shoot abck with a rifel.

Well you seem to be doing a good enough job of dodging them in your avatar

Quote[/b] ]Unforutunately, I think you have to class AA RPGs as SAMs in order to get the AI to fire at choppers

That would explain it i suppose... still sucks.

[aj_addons 0]

who needs nampads carl guv's work wonders on choppers , better than rpgs and laws cause you can steer them

[ag_smith 0]

Put a flying BAS MH-60 on a map. Surround it with 30 enemy AA soldiers. Watch the CMs do their work.

Hehe, the very first time I've done this, I was immediatelly shot down. Tried several more times and I was shot down about 50% of the time. Is there anything wrong with my Blackhawk?

Besides, I remember one of BAS members saying in Pavehawk thread, that efficiency of CMs will be adjusted in next Blackhawk update (whenever that might be.. )

[AgentFox2 0]

Actually, the Blackhawks are pretty good with CM. They sometimes work, and sometimes don't. Which is good.

Some addons are nigh on impossible to hit, though. For instance, I have never once been able to hit Footmunch's awesome MiG-27 with anything short of proximity-fused AIM-120s. Nor have I ever been hit when flying the same plane.

Regarding flare launch on RPG, it may be realistic for the plane to actually launch the flares. Mainly because it is the pilot in the cockpit who activates the counter-measure system, and if I know if I saw a fireball with long smoke trail behind it heading towards me, I would definitely expect the worst. If a pilot even THINKS something looks like a SAM, they dump flares like crazy and yank and bank.

However, for those flares to actually work on an RPG is a totally different matter.  

[@cero 0]

who needs nampads carl guv's work wonders on choppers , better than rpgs and laws cause you can steer them

Carl Gustavs are MANPADs. "MAN Portable Air Defence" lol.

I think that we should come with a way to make CM scripts activate and desactivate trought another script, the script from the MANPAD addon.

This will give it a percentage of succes on any addon.

The biggest problem is that the CM scripts are different in different addons, and you would have to link the MANPAD script/s to all the different CM ones, so the MANPAD recognices the CM scrip tipe first and then reacts to it, shooting down the script or whatever.

I don't even know if that is possible at all, to know what script will run in a addon before the events happen.

Another thing would be good to look at is the caracteristics and features in MANPADs, to make them OFP available.

Take a read to this part that I estracted from a book awhile back.

Quote[/b] ]The Stinger is one shot weapon.

From switch on, there is only ninety seconds of battery life in which to make the shot.

First thing to do is to find the target with the naked eye.

Once visual, click the first stage of the trigger.

This will switch the battery, it will start the passive IR seeker head cooling, and make the optical sight come live.

Track the target with the optical sight, while the seeker head search the sky for a heat source.

The missile will start growling, when the head see the target it will change its sound signal from a low growl to a high pitched buzzing.

Now the head is "lock-to-launch" state.

Once in this state, make the trigger go to its second stage to fire the missile.

If some of the features stated above could be implemented in OFP MANPADs it would be great.

Thanks.

@CERO.

[Bobcatt666 0]

Well using the BOH AH-64D gotten popped more than a few times attacking dismounted ground units after asuming it was safe once their APC was destroyed and nomore mg to deal with, can hear the bullets hitting the hull sometimes as I take ground fire from small arms. Its got the heavy ecm system and still catch SAM in my lap a lot of times. Usually an instant kill unlike smallarms were I sometimes can still crash land with autorotation when the power pack fails. With the annoying GI-Joe type bailout of the bird, most choppers is pick a nice spot to be buried once your not flying and falling. I still think its a como of what troops your using under which mod and what chopper addons. Most SAM guys blow their wad on the first target aviable sometimes armor. Annoying when your traying to defend the area against combined arms assault and the SAM guys blow away armor instead and leave you volerable to the rotorheads and jetjocks. Before you can order most of them to rearm the FAB500s rain on your parade. Would think its AI tweaking than the missile updating, Know a lot of the new missiles have proxy fuses and even claim jets rather easilly, having eaten them on SEAD missions. The JAM units seem to deal better with airthreats at least the MGs will fire at choppers and RPG lauchers go after as well. Most of the blackhawks downed in Iraq were shot down with RPGs then being near impossable to avoid if shot proporly, point and fire systems. Blackhawks being very thin skined like a car body an RPG tears the hell out of them with a direct hit. Blackhawk is a big enough target the CH47 even bigger. When usually attacked its more than one weapon lauched from different postions somebody is gonna get a hit. one Black hawk can't avoid three sams, and a bunch of RPGs launched all at once. One guy with a shoulder fired sam often inst enough usualy you have to actually stick a sam battery someplace off in the distance to protect your ground units. At least they will keep the aircraft attention while you carry out your mission. Most APC units will engage choppers with cannons and machineguns also. Never relay on shoulder launched sams.

[toadlife 3]

...ECP has made the ofp ai FUBAR .and it is hard coded in and the only reason i keep it is the mission editor arrengement....

ECP gives effects and doesn't change the behaviour of soliders. All ECP is are a bunch of scripts that create cool drop effects here and there. You are imagining things.

[Pappy Boyington 0]

so u mean the 20 page spread about "AI improvements and enhancments for smarter ai" was a lie? no matter. not worth argueing over. all i know is befor ECP my OFP ai was dumb as a door nail. and after ECP they can accuratly give a head shot with a pk while running.

[toadlife 3]

Here is the latest ECP readme...

http://www.ofpec.com/editors/ecfg/readme.html

Please point me to the '20 page spread' about AI improvement. The fact is enemy Machine gunners have allways been overly accurate in OFP.

[m4n.strike 0]

I've always just shot down helos in OFP with either LAWs, M136s, or RPGs... No need for the fancy stuff

Also, for the most part machinge guns ARE accurate. The weight of the weapon literally makes recoil non-existant. Here's a video of the belt-fed / magazine-fed M-249 S.A.W. being fired:

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~scoville/video/shooting/saw_music.asf

[AKM 0]

Quote[/b] ]Also as experience in Chechnya has shown modern Russian helicopters can also still be brought down

I would like to note here that I have met a Mujadhid who indeed took a "Mukha" disposable rocket [akin to a RPG-7 crossbred with a LAW] up against a KA-50. And won. Lucky mutha'.

As to the issue of not having enough variety of MANPAD, I agree. There are a lot of MANPAD systems out there, and they should be represented more.

As to Countermeasure-equipped aircraft, I simply use a light or general-purpose machinegun on them. That or I take a LAW or sommot to them rather than try to put a AA missile on 'em, as it rarely works. Now, keeping that in mind, I have shot down countless aircraft with an "Igla" MANPAD... Including MH-60K helicopters laden with Rangers. There have been cases where its literally IMPOSSIBLE to shoot something down, I've seen MH-series choppers engage countermeasures with a RPG-7's lobbed at them.

The best tactic is to mess with their heads a little. Ambushes work everywheres - use your imagination, then blow them cleanly out of the sky with a single rocket launched almost from directly underneath them.

If we're going to get into MP tactics [And I'll touch on this briefly]: If I put an empty truck of some kind somewheres, someone is bound to come along and Hellfire the truck or something quite similar. Because they assume the area is deserted [The truck appears empty...] they tend to actually go into a hover - That's when I like stepping out from behind the bush with the Igla up on my shoulder. I imagine their [Edit: The pilots]facial expression is something like this:  

AK