The Iraq Thread 2

[theavonlady 2]

TBA - The Bush Administration, current president's daddy.

TBA2 - current admin

[aj_addons 0]

thanks avon all those previous posts now make sense

[walker 0]

TBA - The Bush Administration, current president's daddy.

TBA2 - current admin

Sorry Avon

Wrong

TBA - The Bush Administration, current one.

TBA2 - The Blair Administration, current one.

Perhaps we can use TBA-1 - The Bush Administration, current president's daddy's administration. Or PBA Previous Bush Administration.

We only use it to reduce the amount times we type The Bush Administration, The Blair Administration etc.

Kind Regards Walker

[SPQR 0]

Israel trains US assassination squads in Iraq

Julian Borger in Washington

Tuesday December 9, 2003

The Guardian

Israeli advisers are helping train US special forces in aggressive counter-insurgency operations in Iraq, including the use of assassination squads against guerrilla leaders, US intelligence and military sources said yesterday.

The Israeli Defence Force (IDF) has sent urban warfare specialists to Fort Bragg in North Carolina, the home of US special forces, and according to two sources, Israeli military "consultants" have also visited Iraq.

US forces in Iraq's Sunni triangle have already begun to use tactics that echo Israeli operations in the occupied territories, sealing off centres of resistance with razor wire and razing buildings from where attacks have been launched against US troops.

But the secret war in Iraq is about to get much tougher, in the hope of suppressing the Ba'athist-led insurgency ahead of next November's presidential elections.

US special forces teams are already behind the lines inside Syria attempting to kill foreign jihadists before they cross the border, and a group focused on the "neutralisation" of guerrilla leaders is being set up, according to sources familiar with the operations.

"This is basically an assassination programme. That is what is being conceptualised here. This is a hunter-killer team," said a former senior US intelligence official, who added that he feared the new tactics and enhanced cooperation with Israel would only inflame a volatile situation in the Middle East.

"It is bonkers, insane. Here we are - we're already being compared to Sharon in the Arab world, and we've just confirmed it by bringing in the Israelis and setting up assassination teams."

"They are being trained by Israelis in Fort Bragg," a well-informed intelligence source in Washington said.

"Some Israelis went to Iraq as well, not to do training, but for providing consultations."

The consultants' visit to Iraq was confirmed by another US source who was in contact with American officials there.

The Pentagon did not return calls seeking comment, but a military planner, Brigadier General Michael Vane, mentioned the cooperation with Israel in a letter to Army magazine in July about the Iraq counter-insurgency campaign.

"We recently travelled to Israel to glean lessons learned from their counterterrorist operations in urban areas," wrote General Vane, deputy chief of staff at the army's training and doctrine command.

An Israeli official said the IDF regularly shared its experience in the West Bank and Gaza with the US armed forces, but said he could not comment about cooperation in Iraq.

"When we do activities, the US military attaches in Tel Aviv are interested. I assume it's the same as the British. That's the way allies work. The special forces come to our people and say, do debrief on an operation we have done," the official said.

"Does it affect Iraq? It's not in our interest or the American interest or in anyone's interest to go into that. It would just fit in with jihadist prejudices."

Colonel Ralph Peters, a former army intelligence officer and a critic of Pentagon policy in Iraq, said yesterday there was nothing wrong with learning lessons wherever possible.

"When we turn to anyone for insights, it doesn't mean we blindly accept it," Col Peters said. "But I think what you're seeing is a new realism. The American tendency is to try to win all the hearts and minds. In Iraq, there are just some hearts and minds you can't win. Within the bounds of human rights, if you do make an example of certain villages it gets the attention of the others, and attacks have gone down in the area."

The new counter-insurgency unit made up of elite troops being put together in the Pentagon is called Task Force 121, New Yorker magazine reported in yesterday's edition.

One of the planners behind the offensive is a highly controversial figure, whose role is likely to inflame Muslim opinion: Lieutenant General William "Jerry" Boykin.

In October, there were calls for his resignation after he told a church congregation in Oregon that the US was at war with Satan, who "wants to destroy us as a Christian army".

"He's been promoted a rank above his abilities," he said. "Some generals are pretty good on battlefield but are disastrous nearer the source of power."

Source here

[python3 0]

Quote[/b] ] USforces in Iraq's Sunni triangle have already begun to use tactics that echo Israeli operations in the occupied territories, sealing off centres of resistance with razor wire and razing buildings from where attacks have been launched against US troops

great, they are already creating prisons for the iraqi people.

Quote[/b] ] In Iraq, there are just some hearts and minds you can't win. Within the bounds of human rights, if you do make an example of certain villages it gets the attention of the others, and attacks have gone down in the area."

hehe, all this time i always thought the opposite. Wont this incite more anger and frustration among the people. Sounds like a good formula for making terrorists   .

Quote[/b] ]"It is bonkers, insane. Here we are - we're already being compared to Sharon in the Arab world, and we've just confirmed it by bringing in the Israelis and setting up assassination teams."

Yes, not to mention they began this war by claiming it was for the Iraqi people. Now they shall suffer. Well, Mr. OBL will have a much easier time in recruiting, dont u folks think?

Quote[/b] ]"Does it affect Iraq? It's not in our interest or the American interest or in anyone's interest to go into that. It would just fit in with jihadist prejudices."

i'm sure its in the interests of the iraqi people.

Quote[/b] ]One of the planners behind the offensive is a highly controversial figure, whose role is likely to inflame Muslim opinion: Lieutenant General William "Jerry" Boykin.

hehehe, surprise surprise!

[bn880 5]

Quote[/b] ] USforces in Iraq's Sunni triangle have already begun to use tactics that echo Israeli operations in the occupied territories, sealing off centres of resistance with razor wire and razing buildings from where attacks have been launched against US troops

great, they are already creating prisons for the iraqi people.

I prefer they have prisons than double cap wounded defenselsess people like to date. At least if they take some prisonners they won't have to kill everyone for fun.

[python3 0]

well, of course put the ones you catch killing you in jail. i was referring to the imprisonment of the iraqi's living in these towns walled of from the rest of the country. Isolating them because resistance attacks were launched from there.

[python3 0]

oops. sorry, is sort of misunderstood your last post bn880

[bn880 5]

Sorry for the confusion, I also had some typos there, and I don't mean to detract from your statement. However I would like to see a lot more POW's rather than body bags, unfortunately, this did not happen during the main battles... the whole idea was to push through Iraqi territory so fast, anyone wounded wouldrequire medics, better just blow the brains out is the 20 year old GI's solution. And yes I do know what I'm talking about.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Quote[/b] ] USforces in Iraq's Sunni triangle have already begun to use tactics that echo Israeli operations in the occupied territories, sealing off centres of resistance with razor wire and razing buildings from where attacks have been launched against US troops

great, they are already creating prisons for the iraqi people.

I prefer they have prisons than double cap wounded defenselsess people like to date.  At least if they take some prisonners they won't have to kill everyone for fun.

if i were you i'd watch what i say.

one liners are not much of welcome entity here.

[Acecombat 0]

Quote[/b] ] USforces in Iraq's Sunni triangle have already begun to use tactics that echo Israeli operations in the occupied territories, sealing off centres of resistance with razor wire and razing buildings from where attacks have been launched against US troops

great, they are already creating prisons for the iraqi people.

I prefer they have prisons than double cap wounded defenselsess people like to date.  At least if they take some prisonners they won't have to kill everyone for fun.

if i were you i'd watch what i say.

one liners are not much of welcome entity here.

I think its a very valid comment.

Judging by the trigger happy american soldiers , its a good thing to get imprisoned rather then bombed by a F-15 or showered by bullets who dont know what they areafter.

[ralphwiggum 6]

read carefully acecombat. bn880 is claiming that US soldiers kill everyone for fun.

[walker 0]

Hi all

From SPQR's excelent info drop

Israili tactics dont work in Israel.

Hence the large amount of dead Israelis and Palestinians and no stability in sight.

What seems to be advocated by this nutter and his mates is reinforcing failure.

Failed policy in the Sunni triangle. Failed policies in Israel.

Successful policies in the UK and 101st Airborne occupied zones.

Hmm. Which would you follow?

Kind Regards Walker

[bn880 5]

read carefully acecombat. bn880 is claiming that US soldiers kill everyone for fun.

Not everyone, but many are killed for fun, you'd better read carefully when someone is telling you what they have seen on tapes. I suggest you take a step back and realize you are an American, and this infuriates you, whether it's ture or not.

I've seen and heard testimony on this, and it's what happens when you send in armies of young bucks, who really are traind to blow stuff up, not be the Police. If you think the young US Gi's are as calm and collected as the people posting here, you have an illusion. It's war, not a forum out there, and after a couple hours of fighting, a 22 year old is not going to say, MEDIC get a MEDIC over to them, it's over... they're going to walk up and blow these wounded people away.

EDIT: You read what I said incorrectly, they blow all wounded Iraqis (wounded in a fierce firefight) away. That's what I said, but I admit of course it's not all, just a mojority, and that was when Iraq was being swept through during the invasion. However I have seen little evidence to say they are more likely to take prisonners who are wounded.

EDIT2: I use one liners all the time, so are one liners illegal on the forums? Anyway, I think you did not get the gist of what I meant, that's why you are upset.

[bn880 5]

Furthermore, US soldiers have been claimed to say they were ordered to shoot at any vehicles, that they have permission to open fire on any non coalition vehicle, no exceptions were made for police cars, or ambulances. And guess what, ambulances and police cars were often targets.

[ralphwiggum 6]

give a good proof or it's just a rhetoric bound to be a flame.

one liners usually indicate such problem(rhetoric, without facts)

until you can proev that EVERY killing by US is done for 'FUN' factor, you can't clamin it.

[bn880 5]

Ok, well it's kind of hard to post links to videos where this happens as it's "gruesome", and actually most I have seen on TV here. I'll see what can be done about testimonies, until then I am not going to push the issue other than to say, most people know how a war goes down, this is not major news.

[ralphwiggum 6]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/12/12/sprj.nirq.west.ruling/index.html

Quote[/b] ]TIKRIT, Iraq (CNN) -- The commanding general of the 4th Infantry Division's on Friday accepted a U.S. military investigator's recommendation and ordered administrative action against Lt. Col. Allen West, who was accused of using improper methods to force information out of an Iraqi detainee.

Following a military hearing, West was fined $5,000 over two months, according to West's civillian attorney, Neal Puckett.

The punishment does not affect West's eligibility for retirement and pension, Puckett said in a statement.

West, 42, will be assigned to the rear detachment of the 4th Infantry Division awaiting the processing of his retirement request, the statement said.

Maj. Gen. Raymond Odierno, the 4th Infantry's top general in Tikrit, could have rejected the recommendation and ordered a court martial. If he were to be found guilty at a court martial of the two articles against him, West could have faced 11 years in prison, a military prosecutor told CNN.

The case stems from an incident August 20 at a military base in Taji, just north of Baghdad, when West was interrogating an Iraqi policeman, who was believed to have information about a plot to assassinate West with an ambush on a U.S. convoy.

In testimony at an Article 32 hearing -- the military's version of a grand jury or preliminary hearing -- West said the policeman, Yahya Jhrodi Hamoody, was not cooperating with interrogators, so he watched four of his soldiers from the 220th Field Artillery Battalion beat the detainee on the head and body.

West said he also threatened to kill Hamoody. Military prosecutors say West followed up on that threat by taking the suspect outside, put him on the ground near a weapons clearing barrel and fired his 9 mm pistol into the barrel.

Apparently not knowing where West's gun was aimed, Hamoody cracked and gave information about the planned ambush on West's convoy, thwarting the attack.

http://www.cnn.com/2003....ex.html

Quote[/b] ](CNN) -- An international watchdog group has decried the coalition's use of cluster munitions in Iraqi neighborhoods when the war geared up last spring, saying they caused scores of civilian casualties that could have been avoided.

The Human Rights Watch investigation also said the U.S. "decapitation" strategy didn't work, pointing out that 50 strikes on top Iraqi leaders killed "dozens of civilians," not intended targets.

In a 147-page report entitled "Off Target: The Conduct of the War and Civilian Casualties in Iraq," Human Rights Watch said Friday in a news release that U.S. and British forces used almost "13,000 cluster munitions, containing nearly 2 million submunitions, that killed or wounded more than 1,000 civilians."

"Coalition forces generally tried to avoid killing Iraqis who weren't taking part in combat," said Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch. "But the deaths of hundreds of civilians still could have been prevented."

Researchers were in Iraq between April 29 and June 1 to probe civilian casualties and damage to civilian infrastructure and they concentrated on the main areas of fighting in the Tigris and Euphrates river valleys. They visited 10 cities and interviewed scores of victims, their families and doctors.

Human Rights Watch said cluster munitions pose danger because of their "wide dispersal" and "since a large number of duds do not explode on impact and become de facto land mines."

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/12/12/sprj.irq.main/index.html

Quote[/b] ]BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- The U.S. military said that unidentified explosions overnight in Baghdad were rocket attacks targeting the "Green Zone" in Baghdad, the location of the Coalition Provisional Authority and the nerve center of U.S. operations.

"What we know now is three to six explosions impacted in ... one of the buildings inside the Green Zone, not the palace or the headquarters," Brig. Gen. Curtis Scaparrotti told CNN. "There were two wounded, both were (U.S.) soldiers."

He said the soldiers were not seriously hurt.

The ferocity of the blasts had people working inside the headquarters diving under their desks, sources said. The Coalition Provisional Authority headquarters was also targeted in November in insurgent attacks but no one was injured.

and look what Bush has to say about the Halliburton over charge.

http://www.cnn.com/2003....ex.html

Quote[/b] ]WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush Friday said if any company involved in Iraqi reconstruction has overcharged the government, it will have to repay the extra funds.

"If there's an overcharge, like we think there is, we expect that money to be repaid," the president said when asked by a reporter about a Pentagon audit that may have uncovered a potential overcharge by Halliburton, the oil services company once run by Vice President Dick Cheney.

"I appreciate the Pentagon looking out after the taxpayers money. They felt like there was an overcharge issue, they put the issue right out there on the table for everybody to see, and they're doing good work," Bush said.

"We're going to make sure that as we spend the money in Iraq, it's spent well and spent wisely. Their investigation will lay the facts out for everybody to see, and if there's an overcharge, like we think there is, we expect that money to be repaid," he said.

[SPQR 0]

We, and the Iraqis should feel lucky that the Bush administration belongs to the Axe of Good.

Someone should have tell them than Manicheism is not representative of the world.

And thanks to them, young americans are risking their life for strategic et political error (et for some people's bank account, hey Mr Cheney   )

And thanks to them Volonteers for suicide are coming "wave by wave", attracted by the adds :

Welcome to Iraq, as the American soldier Hunt season is opened

[bn880 5]

Well anyway, here are some videos all saved on one site which _might_ provide some limited explanation of what I'm talking about, <span style='color:red'>maybe be graphic for you, do not view if you don't like to hear or see results of war</span>:

1 ambulance attacked

a bus attack (one of many I assure you)

testimonies from hospital

more hospital chat

And these guys have a low quality recording of this show we had on CBC (not necessairly relevant, but inthere are interesting scenes if it is a full video) Canadian Broadcasting Corporation crappy recording

soldiers feeling hot ;)

<span style='color:red'>HAPPY KILLING</span>

put this link together, since it shows someone dying, you have to assemble it so you don't blame me for accidentally clicking on it!

http://www.informationclearin

ghouse.info/video1/

2iraqiwar.ram

EDIT and a nice quote for the link above

Quote[/b] ]Comments from readers regarding this video.

Tom- I believe the way you present the 'shocking' video you have on your website is very irresponsible and inflammatory. The very fact that it is presented without amplifying remarks or background information, coupled with how you use 'execute' to describe the situation, illustrates how naive you are to military operations.

The current policy in Iraq is to SHOOT ON SIGHT ANYBODY emplacing IEDs....yes, those nasty little roadside bombs that have killed almost 200 of our service personnel. But of course, given the very OBVIOUS leftist slant of your website, it is apparent that you wouldn't see fit to report all the facts, choosing instead to attempt to use such media

to advance your faltering liberal agenda, rather than condemn a terrorist agenda. Where on your website do you report the assassinations by terrorists who only hope to get their country back up and running, or the indiscriminate bombings that kill innocent, non-combatant Iraqis?

Forget the fact that we have build hundreds of schools, enabled democracy, re-energized the Iraqi economy, or that Saddam killed tens of thousands of people (to name a few). According to your website, a day doesn't go by when we aren't killing Afghani children or conspiring with the Israelis to take over the world.

Too bad the economy is up, and the Dems best hopes lie w/ Howard Dean...Good luck with that! Bush in 2004!

SEMPER FI!

Capt. James Kimber

United States Marine Corps

Training & Education Command

Reconnaissance & Special Skills Officer

COMM: (703)784-3041 DSN 278

FAX: (703)432-0608

EMAIL: kimberjs@tecom.usmc.mil

hehhe

and another to that one

Quote[/b] ]Dear Sir;

I saw both the video on the front page and read the letters from the Marines.

Disgusting.

I too, am recently returned from seven months in Iraq, with a Division Cavalry unit. I see nothing to defend in that video and am glad that you have archived it so that others can see it. As a scout with over twenty years in the Army, mostly in combat units, I would say that what is captured on the video appears to be murder and in violation of the Law

of Land Warfare.

This is not how warriors behave but how thugs operate. If the Iraqi man was indeed laying in ambush or setting an IED, then it is entirely appropriate to shoot him and to shoot him until he is no longer a threat. Once he ceased combat operations however, it became the soldiers' job to treat him and give him the same aid they would have one of our wounded soldiers receive.

That's how the Law of Land Warfare works.

To use him as a target and appear so joyful about it demonstrates that murder occurred and not combat operations. That is not a reflection of how callous all the soldiers are or what is encouraged or allowed in units. That unit has a problem. Any commander that glosses over that incident is neglecting his duty.

In the opening days of the war, our medics treated many Iraqi casualties, sometimes heroically. That's what you do. Its the law. I have no love lost for Iraqis, especially after watching the ones so happy to get a handout dance so gleefully in soldier's blood.

Our troops killed plenty, engaging in combat actions. My instructions to soldiers on missions almost always included the words - "if at anytime you feel threatened, shoot, shoot first and shoot center mass." But at no time were any of our soldiers instructed, allowed or countenanced to murder an injured person, be he combatant or not. I took pride that my commander insisted we "keep our mean faces on. We are not here to make

friends" but also insisted on the humane treatment, even recommending our PA for an award solely for working heroically on an Iraqi casualty.

This man had attempted to engage our forces, was shot and shot bad and eventually died. No one was happy that a human died. We understood that if we are to expect to be treated a certain way upon injury or capture, then we must treat the enemy the same way. That's what warriors do.

1SG Perry D. Jefferies <pjefferies@hot.rr.com>

Copperas Cove, TX

Of course that site is pro-muslim/Iraqi, but a video is a video, that is why I linked some... but I have seen far more on our TV here, not every show is available on the web...

[walker 0]

Hi all

Never thought I would see the day.

Stars Stars and Stripes Disses the President

Quote[/b] ]Stars and Stripes, the Pentagon-authorized newspaper of the U.S. military, is bucking for a court-martial.

...Stars and Stripes is blowing the whistle on President Bush's Thanksgiving visit to Baghdad, saying the cheering soldiers who met him were pre-screened and others showing up for a turkey dinner were turned away....

Shocked Walker

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Hi all

Never thought I would see the day.

Stars Stars and Stripes Disses the President

Quote[/b] ]Stars and Stripes, the Pentagon-authorized newspaper of the U.S. military, is bucking for a court-martial.

...Stars and Stripes is blowing the whistle on President Bush's Thanksgiving visit to Baghdad, saying the cheering soldiers who met him were pre-screened and others showing up for a turkey dinner were turned away....

Shocked Walker

[HOBOMAN 0]

Listen, I think the we are doing a great job in iraq, (along with the britrish, Australians, ect.) but if other countries are complaining about our great work, they should get their military in iraq to help out. So far the UN has done nothing to liberate Iraq and rebuild the economy.

[python3 0]

Hi all

Never thought I would see the day.

Stars Stars and Stripes Disses the President

Quote[/b] ]Stars and Stripes, the Pentagon-authorized newspaper of the U.S. military, is bucking for a court-martial.

...Stars and Stripes is blowing the whistle on President Bush's Thanksgiving visit to Baghdad, saying the cheering soldiers who met him were pre-screened and others showing up for a turkey dinner were turned away....

Shocked Walker

man, thats real sad.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Listen, I think the we are doing a great job in iraq, (along with the britrish, Australians, ect.) but if other countries are complaining about our great work, they should get their military in iraq to help out. So far the UN has done nothing to liberate Iraq and rebuild the economy.

The UN has done nothing because your government doesn't want them there in the first place

Forgotten history already? How Bush stated that they will go in, irregardless of any further UN resolutions?

How Bush crawled back to the UN a few weeks ago, begging for help and money - and was greeted with a piss-taking handout of 200M euros, and was told to expect military help only if total control is handed over to the UN?