tanks dlc Tanks DLC: treatment inside vehicles?

[mickeymen 324]

Hey. Some thoughts that have poked me...

With the reception interiors of armored vehicles , it seems to me, that time comes for a useful update, which can greatly improve the gameplay of Arma3.
Today, (v1.80) inside the vehicles AI  or the player does not have the ability to treat themselves, despite the fact that majority vehicles abound with medications. This fact looks, at least strange, if not more.  It seems to me that adding the ability to heal itself inside vehicles would be a perfect addition for Tanks DLC, since interiors can now allow the addition of self-healing animation inside vehicles. I think this feature is simply necessary for all passengers. On the positions of Driver / Gunner / Commander this may be a matter for discussion.

 

Here's how I see the details.

 

if vehicle has medicaments, then:

 

1. On the passanger places the player or AI must be able to handle a wound. The AI always should do it independently (if he is injured and is inside)

2. With the reception of armor interiors, self-medication inside the vehicle must have the treat-animation in the sitting position. (one anim for all sitting)

3. If the AI leaves the vehicle and this AI not have a first aid package, then it should always take a nominal first aid package (one) with them.

4. The quality of the self- treatment inside the vehicle can have a different coefficient of recovery and can differ from self-treatment outside the vehicle (more or less effectively depending on the position and situation)

 

 

@BIS, please think about these details.

This can significantly improve the upcoming Tank DLC and the entire Arma platform as a whole

 

 

 

[Strike_NOR 898]

While I do think it's strange you can't heal inside vehicles, it certainly makes things complicated for devs if you want animations for all vehicle crew positions in all vehicles.

 

It may actually be good for gameplay reasons to not be able to heal in vehicles. Forcing players to retreat for a while to patch up to take the stress away from the opposing force. 

 

Also, when you think about it, it's not very realistic to perform field surgery in a combat vehicle fighting position. Bandaging cuts or minor puncture wounds, yes. But most likely, if something made its way through armour to get to you, chances are whatever it is has enough energy left to maim you.

 

 

Dedicated medic vehicles though i can support. Like a MEDEVAC APC or MRAP which grants passengers in the correct seat (stretcher) healing while protected by armor.

[AveryTheKitty 2626]

A simple solution would be to auto heal (after some time?) upon entering a medical vehicle.

[xxgetbuck123 945]

Maybe add a double-click function for inventory items like you see in some mods. Is that a vanilla feature or a modded one? 

 

So if you're a driver, you just open inventory, double click FAK, it disables your ability to do anything like when you do it on the ground, then once its done you can drive off like you normally would.

[Beagle 684]

I understand the idea behind this feature proposal, but as someone who spend some time inside armoured vehicles, I don't see how any kind of first aid beyound dressing some cuts and bruises could be possible RL.

There is not really any space for such actions actions inside the crew compartment, even the cargo compartment of Armoured Transport verhicles is not suitet to do any First Aid or treatment of any serious injury inside.

 

seriously Injured crew means you have to fall back to your support unit line, thats it.

 

what ArmA III really lacks is the ability to recover incapacitated crew from vehicles just the way is worked with the first aid module in ArmA II.

[Janez 531]

1 hour ago, Beagle said:

I understand the idea behind this feature proposal, but as someone who spend some time inside armoured vehicles, I don't see how any kind of first aid beyound dressing some cuts and bruises could be possible RL.

There is not really any space for such actions actions inside the crew compartment, even the cargo compartment of Armoured Transport verhicles is not suitet to do any First Aid or treatment of any serious injury inside.

 

seriously Injured crew means you have to fall back to your support unit line, thats it.

 

what ArmA III really lacks is the ability to recover incapacitated crew from vehicles just the way is worked with the first aid module in ArmA II.

 

While I acknowledge your experience, how hard is to stick a needle in your thigh while inside a vehicle? (Doesn't really have to be animated tbh)

OP has a good idea, there is no need to complicate things and make this aspect into something that Arma 3 is not.

 

Also, aren't you able to heal yourself when parked next to medical vehicle? I'm pretty sure you could do that in previous games.

[Wiki 1558]

Before adding such a possibility with vehicles, it would be great if the medic system could be improved just with infantry.

 

So boring not to be able to go to a medic and ask for heal.

 

For now, when we are injured and a medic is in our squad, he comes and heal us only when the SL tells him to - which is random.

Plus, before he does, he keeps fighting and get killed very often.

 

And if there is another squad with the medic still alive, we just cannot ask him to heal us as he's not in our squad - which is stupid.

 

So, before thinking about medic system with vehicle, maybe they should add an action "heal" when we are near a medic - just like in ArmA 1

[lex__1 422]

15 minutes ago, Wiki said:

Before adding such a possibility with vehicles, it would be great if the medic system could be improved just with infantry.

 

So boring not to be able to go to a medic and ask for heal.

 

For now, when we are injured and a medic is in our squad, he comes and heal us only when the SL tells him to - which is random.

Plus, before he does, he keeps fighting and get killed very often.

 

And if there is another squad with the medic still alive, we just cannot ask him to heal us as he's not in our squad - which is stupid.

 

So, before thinking about medic system with vehicle, maybe they should add an action "heal" when we are near a medic - just like in ArmA 1

Yes, Teams of radio don't work properly, in process of availability of the expert near you. As it was earlier, the expert not necessarily had to be in your group, the team of radio involved any the expert from other group.
- 0-8:
- I am wounded
- repair is required
- it isn't enough ammunition

 

[Janez 531]

3 minutes ago, lex__1 said:

Yes, Teams of radio don't work properly as it was earlier, in process of availability of the expert near you.
- 0-8:
- I am wounded
- repair is required
- it isn't enough ammunition

 

He is talking about an 'HEAL' action (in action menu a.k.a. menu that appears on mouse scroll) that players had in proximity of a medic. Like you have near medical vehicle.

Radio commands you mentioned may not be working as intended but are something else.

[x3kj 1247]

7 hours ago, Janez said:

While I acknowledge your experience, how hard is to stick a needle in your thigh while inside a vehicle? (Doesn't really have to be animated tbh)

The animation of needle in your thigh is an aproximation and generalisation. If you get a penetrating chest wound from a shot or shrapnell going through the armor of a vehicle, what good does sticking a needle in your thigh does? Any damage that makes you consider healinging yourself in arma would be a pretty serious injury IRL.

I agree with Beagle. Getting out of the vehicle is more believable. And it also forces people to exit the vehicle, instead of beeing all terminator, just because their vehicle has 50 first aid kits loaded and they immediately heal from any damage. It would be a different story for passenger seats in large 'transport rooms' like in a large cargo truck or transport helicopter.

[Janez 531]

Nevermind.

[mickeymen 324]

On 12.01.2018 at 9:52 PM, Strike_NOR said:

While I do think it's strange you can't heal inside vehicles, it certainly makes things complicated for devs if you want animations for all vehicle crew positions in all vehicles.

 

No difficulties! Need Only one animation for all sitting positions. Only one sitting animation...

 

On 12.01.2018 at 9:52 PM, Strike_NOR said:

 

It may actually be good for gameplay reasons to not be able to heal in vehicles. Forcing players to retreat for a while to patch up to take the stress away from the opposing force. 

 

 

Do you want to retreat while your vehicle is full of medicines? Even Without using one of these first aid fights? It does not look real. I think In life, the crew at the first opportunity would try to use first aid means! For this reason, in the real life, there is always a first aid kit inside all military (and not only) vehicles.

 

13 hours ago, Beagle said:

There is not really any space for such actions actions inside the crew compartment, even the cargo compartment of Armoured Transport verhicles is not suitet to do any First Aid or treatment of any serious injury inside.

 

You think that the wounded inside vehicles will wait patiently until they have enough space?  If they wait they can bleed! A normal reaction of a living person is to try to survive in any spaces. I do not see any problems with this. We generally have a very abstract treatment in Arma, if it works anywhere on the map for an infantryman, then why can not it work inside vehicles? This is unfair, to say the least. In the extreme case, the effectiveness of such treatment can have a smaller coefficient! Not 0.75 and 0.55, for example. 

It's just a matter of balance...

 

13 hours ago, Beagle said:

 

seriously Injured crew means you have to fall back to your support unit line, thats it.

 

 

This is unlikely to be realized within the framework of Arma AI. It seems to me, that the BIS  have no way and there is no desire to create prerequisites for independent AI retreat. In the end, the player's mission/map may not have points of retreat! It is much easier to create the possibility of self-treatment inside vehicles. This is quite real and not difficult task

 

4 hours ago, x3kj said:

 

I agree with Beagle. Getting out of the vehicle is more believable. And it also forces people to exit the vehicle

 

Lol! You suggest Leaving the shelter during the battle !? Oh, I would like to see how you leave the armored vehicle in real combat! Most likely, I wouldn't be able to see this moment.  I'm sure no one fighter in real combat would have left the vehicle in order to bandage himself out of hiding. it looks absurd. 

The only reason to leave the vehicle is the critical level of damage. In other cases, during the battle the crew must not leave their vehicle.

 

[Beagle 684]

12 hours ago, mickeymen said:

 

No difficulties! Need Only one animation for all sitting positions. Only one sitting animation...

 

 

Do you want to retreat while your vehicle is full of medicines? Even Without using one of these first aid fights? It does not look real. I think In life, the crew at the first opportunity would try to use first aid means! For this reason, in the real life, there is always a first aid kit inside all military (and not only) vehicles.

 

 

You think that the wounded inside vehicles will wait patiently until they have enough space?  If they wait they can bleed! A normal reaction of a living person is to try to survive in any spaces. I do not see any problems with this. We generally have a very abstract treatment in Arma, if it works anywhere on the map for an infantryman, then why can not it work inside vehicles? This is unfair, to say the least. In the extreme case, the effectiveness of such treatment can have a smaller coefficient! Not 0.75 and 0.55, for example. 

It's just a matter of balance...

 

 

This is unlikely to be realized within the framework of Arma AI. It seems to me, that the BIS  have no way and there is no desire to create prerequisites for independent AI retreat. In the end, the player's mission/map may not have points of retreat! It is much easier to create the possibility of self-treatment inside vehicles. This is quite real and not difficult task

 

 

Lol! You suggest Leaving the shelter during the battle !? Oh, I would like to see how you leave the armored vehicle in real combat! Most likely, I wouldn't be able to see this moment.  I'm sure no one fighter in real combat would have left the vehicle in order to bandage himself out of hiding. it looks absurd. 

The only reason to leave the vehicle is the critical level of damage. In other cases, during the battle the crew must not leave their vehicle.

 

The obvious difference is, you see the issue from a game aspect alone, while other see it from a realistic aspect. The medical eqipment inside a military vehicles is nothing else then that mandatory for a regular cilvil car. In any case of injury you need the equivalent of an Ambulance with trained medical personel. Additionally, in most Tanks and IFV the driver is in a separate compartment, neither commander nor gunner can get to him. Same goes for the infanrty compartment...they are on their own back there.

 

You just dont repair anfd heal you way out of a situation....you habe to retrat, retreat not respawn, heal or repair.

 

But I know, a growing Number of player like some battle magic rather then standard military procedures.

Its the same type of "tactic" thats lets you use repawn as a measure of recon.

If this is favored even more, like the umlimited repair and rearm capacity in game, the game is going full arcade at some point.

 

I've already seen the tactic of keeping a repair truck 10m behind a player controlled tank, rollign back with every hit.  and taking 10 Titans that way. At least you could be sure you would at some point kill the crew, now put a ambulance next to that repair truck....god mode.

[mickeymen 324]

7 hours ago, Beagle said:

The obvious difference is, you see the issue from a game aspect alone, while other see it from a realistic aspect.

 

Yet I do not agree with your conclusion.

I'm talking about not only gameplay, but about the two sides of both  - the gameplay and the realism at the same time. 

But I do not want to argue about realism or not realism, ecause it is very subjective feeling

 

My conclusion is very simple - if the Arma platform will support treatment inside vehicles, then it will be better for everyone users: 

 

1: The survival of AI of opponents/allies that are in transport will increased. Even if the player does not have medics in his squad, he can give the command "Get IN" and then use the treatment inside. In addition, AI will replenish its reserve with first aid packages.

2. During the combat, the Commander of Vehicles will have a tactical choice - At the injure, order to his subordinates (gunner, driver) to heal themselves and make his vehicle incompetent for a while, or to continue the battle with the wounded and less efficient crew. 

3. During the combat, there will be an opportunity to treat yourself with a lesser degree of danger than in open spaces of battle. I would on the contrary make the coefficient of treatment inside the vehicle more effective than treatment in an open area of battle, because in a safe space a person will be more attentive to his treatment actions.

4. Against the background of the presence of interiors, visualization of wound processing (healing animation) will make the crew's presence more authentic. In the presence of vehicle interiors, the crew must be alive and at least visually perform some actions. If the crew will be like stationary statues, then we will not like it

5. Mod-makers will be able to improve their medical systems and will be able to balance this well.

 

 

I can continue this list, but what is said above is already a good gift for all users of Arma.

[x3kj 1247]

21 hours ago, mickeymen said:

Lol! You suggest Leaving the shelter during the battle !? Oh, I would like to see how you leave the armored vehicle in real combat! Most likely, I wouldn't be able to see this moment.

I did suggest no such thing. To heal you have to leave the vehicle. If you decide to risk doing that right in the line of fire, or if you retreat to safer position first is a decision the player has to take for himself. Also, most crew would abandon their vehicle if it gets penetrated and they get seriously injured... Because if the threat is not eliminated, the next penetrating shot will be only a question of time.

2 hours ago, mickeymen said:

2. During the combat, the Commander of Vehicles will have a tactical choice - At the injure, order to his subordinates (gunner, driver) to heal themselves

A no brainer decision, when healing in arma takes 10 seconds at best.

Quote

4. Against the background of the presence of interiors, visualization of wound processing (healing animation) will make the crew's presence more authentic.

Executing animations while in crew served positions is impossible. Every crew and passenger position would also require custom animations for healing. Ludicrous suggestion. "Only one sitting animation..." No, there are several dozends of different sitting positions.

Quote

5. Mod-makers will be able to improve

Pointless, scripters can already heal and affect health of people inside vehicles since ages.

[mickeymen 324]

@x3kj - you did not understand that I said, maybe it's my fault ...

 

2 hours ago, x3kj said:

I did suggest no such thing. To heal you have to leave the vehicle.

 

You said this -

 

On 13.01.2018 at 6:14 PM, x3kj said:

I agree with Beagle. Getting out of the vehicle is more believable. And it also forces people to exit the vehicle, instead of beeing all terminator

 

or somebody else ? 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, x3kj said:

A no brainer decision, when healing in arma takes 10 seconds at best.

 

And what prevents to increase it? The mod maker can be able increase this. But even if in a vanilla game - it's only 10 seconds, then still it can be an example of a tactical choice for the commander of a vehicle

 

2 hours ago, x3kj said:

Executing animations while in crew served positions is impossible. Every crew and passenger position would also require custom animations for healing. Ludicrous suggestion. "Only one sitting animation..." No, there are several dozends of different sitting positions.

 

No, a Ludicrous statement is that it is impossible. This is impossible only for those who in 2018 do not want to implement it!

 

2 hours ago, x3kj said:

Pointless, scripters can already heal and affect health of people inside vehicles since ages.

 

You do not understand what I said. I talked about a moded and potential new self-treatment system (for example like ACE medicine but already  inside vehicles) that will have a new balance and possibly new wound effects for a first-person player. 

[Strike_NOR 898]

Sigh...

 

Mickeymen, if you will not listen to experienced arma modders, or community members with actual tank crew experience, then I fear our efforts to convince you are pointless. And take note that what we are simply trying to say is that the devs can't adapt your idea just because you think it makes sense.

 

For instance. If you want to be able to heal inside vehicles, for consistency purposes and according to yourself, this should be possible in all crew positions for all vehicles (jets, helis, cars, tanks, trucks, boats etc). Each of these crew positions have custom sitting animations (sure there are probably some re-used ones here and there, but the majority are unique). Each of these crew positions have a custom "idle animation", and for each healing animation, there would have to be a smooth transition from the idle animation to the healing animation.

Then you have to ensure, for quality purposes, that the soldier model does not clip through the vehicle while healing, leading to even more diversity in animations.

Now think about how many vehicles there are in ArmA, then how many crew positions. Quick maths is to just count the amount of crew positions in total for the entire game, then you have the amount of new animations you have to make.

What @x3kj is saying, is that it is ludicrous to say that "it is a simple task" to do this. Making just one animation and quality-assuring it ingame could probably take hours of time - I would not know as I only do some 3D modeling, but I assume it is a lot of work to get to "arma 3 standard" quality, without Inverse Kinematics or Motion Capture hardware.

 

And finally, take it from me, who has over 10 years of military experience. The moment someone gets injured, the priority is to take care of them and secure them. You cannot "heal" a person in line of fire. You can apply tourniquet, bandage and evacuate. Or else you are going to increase the casualties rapidly. We emphasize stopping massive bleeding and removing the casualty from the combat for further treatment. 

 

In many ways, the medic system in "Squad" (game) is a much more accurate representation of how a medic functions. Each soldier can stop his own bleeding, or the bleeding of a teammate, but they cannot regain health. The medic has to administer "field surgery" in order to increase HP again. If it worked like this in ArmA, I would not have issues with applying bandages in a vehicle, because it is not a "godmode" healing method, it only stops you from passively dying of bloodloss. I have written some suggestions about how to improve the medic system in ArmA 3, but I think it's too late for that now.

 

To summarize:

 

Asking for healing "the arma way" with FAK's in vehicles is begging for exploits (100 FAKs in a tank = crew godmode)

Asking for accompanying animations for each crew member is ludicrous

 

We have explained why it is a bad idea for gameplay reasons.

We have explained why it is an unrealistic idea based on experience.

We have explained why it is a resource-demanding task based on modding experience.

 

While we can't speak for the devs, I am fairly sure they agree with our views on the matter.

[mickeymen 324]

If you do not support my idea, it's your choice ... Thank you for your essay, you explained everything in detail, but you can not be right in everything.

11 hours ago, Strike_NOR said:

 

And take note that what we are simply trying to say is that the devs can't adapt your idea just because you think it makes sense.

 

First of all, how did you get that only I think so? I'm sure there will be people who will not only spoil my offer and prevent developers from making a useful update, but there are also people who will support me (there are already at least two who liked my post) So you are wrong when you say that only I want this

11 hours ago, Strike_NOR said:

 

For instance. If you want to be able to heal inside vehicles, for consistency purposes and according to yourself, this should be possible in all crew positions for all vehicles (jets, helis, cars, tanks, trucks, boats etc).

 

Where did you come up with this? What prevents to prohibit self-treatment in some vehicles and to resolve in others? My theme is called Tanks DLC - This means that in this ticket I mean only Armor. Or you find it hard to understand?  There is no need to mention - boats, pilots of jets and helis. This all can be excluded (Even if you need a brilliant script from the 22 century!)  Also for self treatment not need all the positions inside the transport. Self-medication can only be available in a sitting position (even may be not at every)

 

11 hours ago, Strike_NOR said:

 

Now think about how many vehicles there are in ArmA, then how many crew positions. Quick maths is to just count the amount of crew positions in total for the entire game, then you have the amount of new animations you have to make.

 

 

It does not matter. All armor positions (in all tanks, apc, any armor) they are all in the sitting position. Exceptionally everything! Or maybe they don't all sit? Lol!

 

Remember how many positions has the infantryman when he stands (he can run or walk, to be tilted in different directions and have different heights on the erected stance!), but it requires only one standing animation for the treatment.  I mean the player does Not need brilliant animations for each scene. Only one animation. If you don't understand what I'm talking about, look at the only standing animation infantryman who heals himself 

 

@Strike_NOR and  @x3kj probably your knowledges of Arma modding is great, but it's possible that now it's just an atavism. Now I'm not talking about your knowledge of modding, I'm talking about the capabilities of the developers of ArmA3. For this task. the @BIS can always use any new trick or even upgrade platform.

 

Your task is not to prevent people with new and useful suggestions, but to support them.

 

11 hours ago, Strike_NOR said:

 

And finally, take it from me, who has over 10 years of military experience. The moment someone gets injured, the priority is to take care of them and secure them. You cannot "heal" a person in line of fire. You can apply tourniquet, bandage and evacuate. Or else you are going to increase the casualties rapidly. We emphasize stopping massive bleeding and removing the casualty from the combat for further treatment. 

 

I appreciate your experience ... But we're talking about different things. Sometimes the life of a soldier can FORCE to act you not according to plan and not your priorities or military regulations. I have only one question - If in ArmA3 the treatment of an infantryman at any point of the map, then there is no reason to prohibit it inside the vehicle! Physically, there are no such reasons

 

11 hours ago, Strike_NOR said:

 

In many ways, the medic system in "Squad" (game) is a much more accurate representation of how a medic functions. Each soldier can stop his own bleeding, or the bleeding of a teammate, but they cannot regain health. The medic has to administer "field surgery" in order to increase HP again. If it worked like this in ArmA, I would not have issues with applying bandages in a vehicle, because it is not a "godmode" healing method, it only stops you from passively dying of bloodloss. I have written some suggestions about how to improve the medic system in ArmA 3, but I think it's too late for that now.

 

 

I do not want to discuss or compare with other games the realism of the treatment itself in Arma, 3 because the treatment itself in Arma looks very abstract. With the addition of this to vehicles there will always be a chance to customize it in a specific way. Besides, I already mentioned the medication system of ACE3. There the player can die from loss of blood. This medicine can also be used inside vehicles!

 

11 hours ago, Strike_NOR said:

 

Asking for healing "the arma way" with FAK's in vehicles is begging for exploits (100 FAKs in a tank = crew godmode)

 

Vehicles do not have 100 FAK, it has no more than 5-10 FAK. I already said above that the coefficient of such treatment can be balanced in a certain way. Either way, after a while modders balance this if the BIS creates the prerequisites. Apparently it's hard for you to understand this...

 

11 hours ago, Strike_NOR said:

 

Asking for accompanying animations for each crew member is ludicrous

 

It's ridiculous to make such statements if you are not a Arma game developer. A person can always find tricks or compromise. It is necessary only desire. 

 

11 hours ago, Strike_NOR said:

 

We have explained why it is a bad idea for gameplay reasons.

We have explained why it is an unrealistic idea based on experience.

We have explained why it is a resource-demanding task based on modding experience.

 

While we can't speak for the devs, I am fairly sure they agree with our views on the matter.

 

You could not tell me anything. Only developers can explain ... Again you are talking about realism inside vehicles, while the treatment itself in arma is not realistic initially. This is absurd.

[Strike_NOR 898]

Good luck

[bars91 956]

No. Just no.

 

Either bandage only (not represented in vanilla game) or it's an exploit. (merely adding my 2$ worth of opinion) 

[mickeymen 324]

On 16.01.2018 at 2:28 AM, Strike_NOR said:

Good luck

 

@Strike_NOR I feel your sarcasm ) But Good luck too

I think, In your conclusions. you can be right, but only partially.

However, I aso do not pretend to the ultimate truth of all truths.

 

If I could choose a compromise, then I could agree with you that in place of - Driver/Gunner/Commander - this may be inappropriate. Maybe... But on the position of passengers, the self-treatment is simply necessary and the absence of such a feature in Arma looks at least not logical. 

It's not only a issue of all vehicles crew. The player or AI-units should have a possibility for heal himself in a safe place, if soldier gets into the ally's passenger compartment or if  finds in the map any opened transport. The dressing in such conditions could be safer and more effective

 

[mickeymen 324]

I do not know how other users, but I was tired of the reports of the wounded crew members.

If player have subordinates in the other armored vehicles, then during the battle they cry -  "injured", "injured"

Such reports look ridiculous - they just scream instead of bandaging yourself on your own inside a vehicle that is rife with first-aid kits. 

 

Any work on handling injuries inside vehicles (if the medicaments are present on board) would be an excellent addition for Arma3