UK leaves Europe

[beppe_goodoldrebel 367]

EU didn't answer the real problems of our times

 

When we had Euro currency an Italian Premier said : "We will work less with more salary" ... we are working twice with less salary and no future!
No real plan for REAL economy was ever made.

 

Immigration has no control.The only things that was decided is to accept more and more immigrants without a real integration plan. 

 

How do people expect that a semi EU dipendent country like Great Britain ( who has a long story of indipendence ) would remain in the EU?

I don't think that EU will be destroied by this vote but I hope that this will change things.
 

[kavoven 4]

Switzerland does quite well without the EU, and so will UK in a few years after the first months of restructuring. The EU in its current form is a eco-leftwing dictatorship taking away personal freedom bit by bit

 

You still dont get it, don't you? If GB/England wants to trade with the EU, you have to comply with our laws! The only difference between now and before is that you do not have anything to say about them. Even more, after this decision you will probably get even worse conditions than Switzerland and Norway.

[kavoven 4]

EU didn't answer the real problems of our times

 

When we had Euro currency an Italian Premier said : "We will work less with more salary" ... we are working twice with less salary and no future!

No real plan for REAL economy was ever made.

 

...

 

Sorry for disturbing your fantasies, but you will never ever get more. The baby boomers got more. And now they are receiving their pensions on the backs of the younger generations. Europe (and the world) lived over its real limits for more than 50 years. You will never ever in your whole future get more. Blaming this on the EU (and not your own government making false promises) is nothing but wrong.

 

Edit

 

New favorite statistic:

Many UK voters didn't understand Brexit:

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/06/brexit-google-search-trends-tech/

[giallustio 770]

"Winter is coming"

[djotacon 190]

UK has finish his homework and this country show to the entire world how to be in the XXI century, instead hide the problems behind a wall they ask to the people, to me this is democracy in action.

[kbbw123 115]

And it fucked britain over completly... all services seems to be down toward the outside world, massive connection issue's between London and the mainland... shit just got real 0.o

[Belbo 461]

Yeah... and I was planning on going to England in two weeks. Hopefully they don't start to carry out the leaving process right away. My international passport is out of date.

[Rydygier 1302]

I think, it will take some time, like a year or few, before UK (with or without Scotland) actually (legally) leave EU (not Europe, unless we're talking about tectonic movemements). People expressed they will, but it has no any legal force by itself, AFAIK ATM is still 100% UE member with all consequences of that fact. 

[beppe_goodoldrebel 367]

Sorry for disturbing your fantasies, but you will never ever get more. The baby boomers got more. And now they are receiving their pensions on the backs of the younger generations. Europe (and the world) lived over its real limits for more than 50 years. You will never ever in your whole future get more. Blaming this on the EU (and not your own government making false promises) is nothing but wrong.

 

Of course is not all about EU , governments has is own responsability. 

But in this very time seems that governments can't make his own economical politics cause of EU austerity... oh yes ... unless you are a bank! 

 

Don't get me wrong , I dont want EU to fail ...

I want EU to stop immigration and start help actual EU families to have babies.

I want EU to help REAL economy by force governments lowering taxes or help medium/small factories to receive bank loans.

I want EU to help more green economy , we have to be indipendent from oil.

I want EU to defend our culture instead of giving it away for not hurt anyone (most islamic) feelngs... 

Extreme right parties are returning in full speed cause EU isnt responding to all that.

And when you didn't answer people's demand the reaction is a protesting vote against it... 

I truly hope that this vote lead us in a new deal , a new way to see and feel EU.

[JdB 151]

Extreme right parties are returning in full speed cause EU isnt responding to all that.

Yep, people keep saying it's going down hill if the EU doesn't act on loads of issues, they don't do it and just keep pushing their own agenda. That pisses people off. They just never thought the populace would actually take this step to leave. The problem with the EU is that out of all national and international institutions (except for aid organisations) it is the most obsessed with humanitarian superiority. The EU's task should lie with the quality of life of the citizens of the EU, not that of every refugee and gold digger that washes up on our shores. They want safety from war or so they say. Yet they all want to go to Holland, Germany, UK. Countries with the highest levels of social welfare. When reporters continue asking questions some of them add that they are looking for a better life. At that point most of the refugees stop being actual refugees since they would be perfectly save in Jordan, Turkey, Greece etc. It is not the priority of the EU to improve the lives of everyone that comes knocking.

Nothing will happen, they'll keep pushing the same agenda. In most countries there is no such thing as a binding referendum and hardly any government will dare introduce legislation that enables it having seen that it can actually go wrong.

Funny to see so many people referencing Churchill, how he'd be proud of them for leaving when Winston was one of the biggest proponents of European integration and unity, including the UK.

[da12thMonkey 1943]

New favorite statistic:

Many UK voters didn't understand Brexit:

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/06/brexit-google-search-trends-tech/

I see this being trotted out a lot at the moment, but the claim that seems to be going alongside it: that people voted to leave without knowing what the EU was. Well, that seems counter-intuitive to me.

It's an acknowledged fact that the older populace was the driving force behind the Leave vote. But the older populace is never the computer-literate crowd, searching Google at 1am.

Seems far more likely to me that the "What happens if we leave the EU" search was driven by younger voters who, as the results were coming in and being broadcast in the middle of the night; were encountering an outcome from the referendum that they did not expect.

Voter turnout in key areas that were expected to see large votes for Remain (such as Newcastle very early on) failed to materialize in many cases. And to me that smacks of many young people being assured in themselves that "Leave" stood little chance, so had no contemplation that "BrExit" might be a very real thing today.

i.e. they've been the ignorant ones.

Anyway. I voted Remain; but for economic reasons. Not because of principle confidence in the EU's ability to run Europe.

I sit here looking at the "Leave" result and the celebrations, regrets and lamentations among those who voted, and can only think:

 

- If there is a majority from those that sincerely wanted to leave, when combined with those who are concerned about the EU enough that that they conflictedly decided (includings those who have expressed regret now) that maybe life outside the EU was worth a gamble.

- Then there are people like me who only really voted to remain because the economic risk was so high. And that the most vocal lament from Remain voters today reflects that so many voted purely on the basis that they believe it is racist/xenophobic to hold anti-EU beliefs (because of the "Leave" focus on immigration).

 

Then, how many people are actually left among the "Remain" vote who truly believed in the institutions of the EU and had confidence in its current form? The percentage who are actually fundamentally happy with the EU must be very small.

 

I think lack of transparent understanding and subsequent enthusiasm for the long-term goals of the EU is commonplace across Europe. Yet so far there is nobody looking seriously at reforms that might bring greater parity with what the people want, rather than what Brussels and the economists want from Europe's future.

[Defunkt 431]

I guess the moral of the story is that if you intend to figuratively disenfranchise the poor you should first remember to literally disenfranchise them also.

[dontknowhow 33]

If we could finally drop all the common values bullshit and go back to a peaceful free labour/trading/security union, I think the EU could become a lot more likeable

Nah, it's just that we have been doing that too fast.

By the way, where have you been? :)

 

Question for the Brits around here: to what extent is this vote against Europe and to what extent it is just again the British political establishment? I heard a Labour MP raising the issue, and it makes sort of sense. Which would make this vote really, really stupid

[cosmic10r 2325]

It's an interesting question...

I think a lot more voting and selection is becoming anti entrenched establishment... and I think the reason the trump campaign has legs is a part of that... the view he is outside the normal boundaries of the political establishment.. however right or wrong that may be...

In BC here about 3 or 4 years ago one of the parties said they wouldn't have a harmonized sales tax and got in and rammed it thru... so we had a referendum on it and the entire lead up from the pro hst camp was that it would be expensive to repeal and the new system was in place...

I'm happy to say that got a big F U. And it was repealed...

It would be nice to think taxation WITH representation might be making a comeback... but hey.. maybe I'm an optimist

[Wiki 1558]

God save the Queen... but not England apparently ;)

[ProfTournesol 956]

The lesson is : if you don't want an answer, don't ask the question. The referendum was decided by Cameron for his own conservative party agenda, and now the whole country will have to cope with the result.

[kbbw123 115]

And to top that: apperently Scotland wants to redo their referendum to leave britain again and join the EU and London also wants to be seperated from england and join the EU... Britain iis allready falling appart form the inside...

[dontknowhow 33]

I think a lot more voting and selection is becoming anti entrenched establishment... and I think the reason the trump campaign has legs is a part of that... the view he is outside the normal boundaries of the political establishment.. however right or wrong that may be...

Yes, same goes for Sanders. Consequence of the crisis, I believe. I wonder if this vote falls in the same category.

 

In BC

British Columbia?

 

The lesson is : if you don't want an answer, don't ask the question. The referendum was decided by Cameron for his own conservative party agenda, and now the whole country will have to cope with the result.

I really don't think this is correct. The referendum was decided because Farage had a lot of followers. People simply wanted that, and the result is a clear demonstration.

[Wiki 1558]

The lesson is : if you don't want an answer, don't ask the question.

 

You should tell this to women :P

 

"Am I fat?"

"Did I take some weight?"

"Do you love me?"

"Will it bother you if we go visit my mother this weekend?"

 

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[ProfTournesol 956]

I really don't think this is correct. The referendum was decided because Farage had a lot of followers. People simply wanted that, and the result is a clear demonstration.

That was organised to avoid Tories MP to join Ukip.

[cosmic10r 2325]

British Columbia? 

Yes sir...

[da12thMonkey 1943]

Question for the Brits around here: to what extent is this vote against Europe and to what extent it is just again the British political establishment? I heard a Labour MP raising the issue, and it makes sort of sense. Which would make this vote really, really stupid

 

Euroscepticism has been pretty strong for well over a decade so I don't think it's possible to simply say it's a protest against established politics.

 

Subsequent governments have failed to tackle immigration though, in spite of many promises to bring numbers down that end up rising every year. So I guess in a way, nobody has seen the two main parties (Labour and Conservative) as being truly interested in dealing with an issue that has concerned a lot of people (rightly or wrongly), for many years.

However, people don't vote for third parties because things are too partisan between the main two. Nobody wants to split the vote and concede victory to the party they definitely don't want to win. So party policies don't have to run extremely close with what the electorate would say they want.

As Prof said, the Tories ended up calling for a referendum because they didn't want to lose Conservative voters to UKIP the same way as Labour ended up losing voters in Scotland to the SNP, and risking a loss or another hung parliament where the SNP would side with Labour.

 

The fact that the leading ministers for both parties supported Remain coupled with the results, may also be seen to be affirmative of how London-centric a great many people in England perceive politics here to be (and other parts of the UK though they'd determine it as England-centric in as a whole, not just London-centric specifically).

 

I'd say though, that rather then them having any actual belief that the Leave vote is a swipe at established politics; some Labour MP would suggest that changes at the top of the parties are needed because within that party there is a split over the leadership of Jeremy Corbin and people are maneuvering to remove him. I don't know which MP you're referring to though, so I wouldn't know where they stand on Corbin's leadership.

[Defunkt 431]

The working class don't turn out to vote in general elections because for decades they've been offered two barely differentiated brands of the same shit - it makes little to no difference. This though was a chance to strike against the neo-liberal ideology itself. And it's not like this has happened in isolation, it directly parallels what's going on in the U.S. primaries. Message to the establishment; make the new globalized world work for the whole of society or we'll burn it to the ground and start again.

 

Cutting one's nose off to spite one's own face?

 

Possibly. And it's probably going to most hurt those who can least afford to weather a financial storm but I also think there's a method beneath this madness. Mired in an uncertain future of their own devising I simply cannot see this Conservative government surviving another general election. Provided Blairites in Labour aren't allowed to completely destroy the party (something for which they would never be forgiven) we might finally see some genuinely principled administration from a Corbyn-led government. The outright lunacy of curtailing investment in infrastructure (so called Austerity) to bail out a corrupt banking sector which gleefully proceeded to continue siphoning funds to the further benefit of the 1% isn't diminishing any with hindsight.

 

If the game is rigged sometimes the only thing to do is overturn the whole card table.

[simon1279 51]

Immigration huh, do you UK guys assume that you used to call immigrants even people from other EU countires? while they basically were not immigrants in an EU member country just like yours was.

At least now you're right to call immigrants EU citizens

[cosmic10r 2325]

I agree with Defunkt.. and the problem becomes... do I face the unknown or do I keep playing a game that was rigged from the start but may be more stable...

Sadly the politicians are too frequently to blame as they have been corporate whore's for a long time