smallarms NIArms Release Thread

[Spartan0536 189]

Hey Spartan, not to go too far off topic but, for your updated ballistics, are you planning on also featuring vintage M855/SS109 and M80 FMJ rounds, or have you come to the conclusion that the BI projectiles are close enough to the performance of those rounds that it doesn't matter / warrant creating?

 

The reason I'm asking is that while both of these rounds are on their way to being phased out (I think the Marines are still running 855s in some areas until the decide on whether to adopt 855A1 or Mk 318 which is what they've been pushing for) by the US Armed Forces, other than the UK (who plans to be using new L31A1 5.56x45mm and L59A1 7.62x51mm "Enhanced Performance" rounds of their own standard) almost all other users worldwide have something equivalent to those (M855/SS109 and M80) standards.

As for the M855/SS109 and M80 Ball, NOPE NOPE NOPE.

I HATE the M855 "Green Tip" bullet for combat with a passion, its only real use is punching holes in paper. I would gladly take a 55 grain M193 FMJ round before I would use an M855 in combat. The M855A1 EPR is a VASTLY SUPERIOR round in terms of combat performance and accuracy. The M80 Ball will not make the cut as the M80A1 EPR is a VASTLY SUPERIOR round, in every aspect from the ballistics coefficient, muzzle velocity, terminal performance, barrier penetration, and accuracy.

As for the US Armed Forces deciding on M855A1 or Mk 318 Mod 1, its been officially declared that M855A1 EPR will be the standard issue ball round for all 5.56x45mm NATO.

Difference Between M855 & M855A1 EPR

M855 "Green Tip" in Clear Ballistics Gel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWhiXr9Bkv4

M855A1 EPR in Clear Ballistics Gel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fX4ODh1g4eM

[toadie2k 799]

I don't know what Toadie might throw in in addition to that. For example, we're getting far more with the P226 pack than just the stuff I asked and paid for. Personally I don't think the IAR and the HK416C are worth bothering with. RHS already has a perfectly good M27, and anyone playing USMC is probably already going to be using RHS. As for the HK416C, wasn't adopted by anyone in substantial numbers, impossible to get any sort of cheekweld with that stock, and a 9" barrel just isn't sufficient.

Not sure about the C, the M27 is just a D16.5 with KAC sights, so maybe for that.

Ideally what I'd be aiming for is covering the largest coherent grouping of the family (outside of the specifically requested gear).

For the 416s it'd be the D10, D14.5, D16.5, D20, and the A5 versions of each.

 

So, since the ammo bearer arsenal update that lets you see ammo types, I've noticed a whole bunch of new ones for guns not in NIA- 44. Magnum Desert Eagle (with a 50 round tracer magazine, great job there :) ), Mk23 +P 12 round mags, 6.8 FMJ, Tapco 5.7 N-231S 7.62mm 30 round, Sten mag 32 rounds, among many others- Is this just a whole bunch of ammo types for convenience, or are weapons on those calibres coming to NIA soonish?

Actually the reverse happened- these come from a time pre-dating any formal HLC releases (like mid-late 2013) when I just ported a bunch of things to arma for me and my friends to mess with,. Most of it I could never release, so it got turfed, but the mags and ballistics I kept just in case. Never know when you're going to need 6.5 Carcano or .303 (actually that second one Might be more close than you think), and I figure that any interested parties could hook them up to their own stuff if they wanted them.

[Chaingunfighter 103]

I actually didn't call for that many guns in the commission. The commission calls for the HK416A5 in both black and RAL8000 with variants for either an HK GLM or an HK battlegrip in three barrel lengths (11",14.5" and 16.5"). The OG HK416 in its last configuration with variants for either an HK GLM or an HK battlegrip in three barrel lengths (10.4",14.5" and 16.5") and finally two custom American HK416's, which I will once again list the parts for (because I have an unhealthy love of custom AR15's despite being one of dem damn European liberals):

Devgru 416:

• Magpul CTR stock (Black)
• Hogue overmolded rubber grip (Black)
• Remington RAHG Handguard (Black)
• Magpul RVG (Black)
• Magpul Emag (Black)
• BLACKOUT 51T Flash Hider (An M4-2000 to mount to it would be appreciated)

Gun of War_Lord:

• Vltor IMOD stock (FDE)
• BCM Gunfighter Mod 3 grip (FDE) & Trigger guard (Black)
• Geissele MK4 Handguard (Desert Dirt colour)
• Magpul AFG-2 (Black)
• Magpul Emag (Black)
• AAC BLACKOUT 51T Flash Hider (Hopefully with the appropriate suppressor)
• Troy folding BUIS sights, HK front and round rear (Black)
• Phase 5 extended Bolt release V2

I don't know what Toadie might throw in in addition to that. For example, we're getting far more with the P226 pack than just the stuff I asked and paid for. Personally I don't think the IAR and the HK416C are worth bothering with. RHS already has a perfectly good M27, and anyone playing USMC is probably already going to be using RHS. As for the HK416C, wasn't adopted by anyone in substantial numbers, impossible to get any sort of cheekweld with that stock, and a 9" barrel just isn't sufficient.

I wasn't aware they were commissioned - I was treating this like a typical list item, for which Toadie's new standard seems to be "more rather than less." For a commission that changes.

If that's the case then the Geissele parts will probably have to wait. The 20' barrels are still worth doing just because it's not a lot of work and offers some ranged utility, and the 416C while it's not the most practical or actually used variant is fairly interesting. Also, much like the MG36, adoption doesn't need to be a huge factor because ArmA is fictional (and the 416C would be excellent for different niche A3 roles for that matter.) Also, the 27 IAR has enough distinctions to make it worthwhile. At least personally.

Edit: and I should add that I don't think weapons should be unincluded purely on the basis of being in other mods. By that logic the A5s are doubly unneccessary because Tanoa came with them

[Chaingunfighter 103]

I can not speak to many of the other calibers but your basic military ones I write the code for, in terms of pistol calibers for the Sig Project mentioned above we are looking at 9x19, .40 S&W, .357 Sig, and .45 ACP. I will also be providing non-military ballistics in an update coming soon, but I do not see .44 Magnum, 6.8x43 SPC II, or 5.7x28 coming anytime soon unless Toadie2k has mentioned a WIP for any firearms chambered in those calibers.

D'awh, no SIG Mosquito? Really want some low power cartridges at some point.

[irving_mainway 105]

As for the M855/SS109 and M80 Ball, NOPE NOPE NOPE.

I HATE the M855 "Green Tip" bullet for combat with a passion, its only real use is punching holes in paper. I would gladly take a 55 grain M193 FMJ round before I would use an M855 in combat. The M855A1 EPR is a VASTLY SUPERIOR round in terms of combat performance and accuracy. The M80 Ball will not make the cut as the M80A1 EPR is a VASTLY SUPERIOR round, in every aspect from the ballistics coefficient, muzzle velocity, terminal performance, barrier penetration, and accuracy.

As for the US Armed Forces deciding on M855A1 or Mk 318 Mod 1, its been officially declared that M855A1 EPR will be the standard issue ball round for all 5.56x45mm NATO.

Difference Between M855 & M855A1 EPR

M855 "Green Tip" in Clear Ballistics Gel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWhiXr9Bkv4

M855A1 EPR in Clear Ballistics Gel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fX4ODh1g4eM

 

Yeah, I fully realize that both the M80 (late 50s design) and M855/SS109 (Belgian designed in the mid-late 70s) have been fully and completely outperformed and surpassed by the new EPR projectiles. My interest in the old rounds is based on realism (and history), specifically BECAUSE they are worse than the new EPR rounds, and much more commonly encountered and available (AFAIK the United States has not and most likely will not approve the M855A1 for export sale). I've yet to hear of anyone who likes the infamous green-tip round, but that doesn't change the fact that it's by far the most common round for the 5.56x45mm since the 80s and still equips almost all armies which use 5.56 weapons and for most there is no choice or alternative. Ditto to the M80 which almost everyone running 7.62x51mm NATO has an equivalent 147-150 grain FMJ round.

 

Anyways I'm content to just use the universal BIS "30 round STANAG" ect as an approximate representation, was just wondering what were going to be seeing with the new update, but you've answered my question. Thanks

[raspu86 92]

Hey toadie, during testing of the great MG42/MG3 pack i noticed that the MG3 seems to have a lower rate of fire then the MG42. The official documentation to the MG3 talks of a rate of fire of 1200 rpm. The current rpm feels a bit low imo.

[Chaingunfighter 103]

Hey toadie, during testing of the great MG42/MG3 pack i noticed that the MG3 seems to have a lower rate of fire then the MG42. The official documentation to the MG3 talks of a rate of fire of 1200 rpm. The current rpm feels a bit low imo.

This is intentional - in practice the MG3 is almost always used with heavier bolts placing it around 900/1000 RPM and allowing for better ammunition conservation.

[war_lord 934]

1200 rpm really isn't needed for a modern LMG role, just a spectacular waste of ammo.

[onetwo 30]

1200 rpm really isn't needed for a modern LMG role, just a spectacular waste of ammo.

 

Its a game so ammo does not cost any money and having to manage supply chains enriches most gamplay.

 

This is intentional - in practice the MG3 is almost always used with heavier bolts placing it around 900/1000 RPM and allowing for better ammunition conservation.

 

Thats verry debatable :) and not a fact most of the presentet "facts" to that topic are more rumors. The strengt of the spring behind the bolt or the lack of it makes the gun shoot faster not the bolt...

The bolt was just fitted with a delaying mechanism "NATO-Bremse" to make it safer to shoot the gun. Cannot have the bolt open too early and its gases is still in the barrel...

[bars91 956]

Either way, both the MG-3 and Yugo M53 from my personal experience have lower RoF the the original 42 because ammo/barrel life concerns.

 

  ;) I guess that first hand experience still counts as a "fact"?

[astrell 3]

1200 rpm really isn't needed for a modern LMG role, just a spectacular waste of ammo.

 

The MG3 is NOT A LMG! It cannot fired from standing position, you have to go prone!

Its a heavy machine gun like the M2. Not per definition ( larger caliber ) but trough the fire rate! 

 

This is intentional - in practice the MG3 is almost always used with heavier bolts placing it around 900/1000 RPM and allowing for better ammunition conservation.

 

No, it doesn't. This is just wrong.

 

Where does this sh*tty information come from? 

 

My evidence: 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/ZDv_3-14_Das_Maschinengewehr.pdf

Official German Army Document 

Page 9 -> Feuergeschwindigkeit(Fire Rate) -> 1200 Schuss/min (rpm)

 

Last change in the text was made 2003 because NOTHING CHANGES since then. 

 

@bars91 

 

Either way, both the MG-3 and Yugo M53 from my personal experience have lower RoF the the original 42 because ammo/barrel life concerns.

 

   ;) I guess that first hand experience still counts as a "fact"?

 

Does the experience of my german army comrades count? The guys which shooting with it every week? 

 

Either way,

MG42 have 1500rpm,

MG3 has STILL 1200rpm

[bars91 956]

I can't speak for BW MG3's and any of their regs, but ours had downgraded RoF. Same with M53's.

Got me interested in the matter - will scoop around!

 

Tho your "angry german kid" attitute does not help the discussion one bit. So ease up, will ya?

 

Safe!  ;)

[astrell 3]

I´m pretty proud about our good old weapon systems like G3, MG3 and IFV Marder.

So yes, i have some attitude if someone is insulting our weapon systems (like, as if we would need downgrade something because of "life time expanding" ... it´s perfect as it is! If you change something than absolutely not because its needed. You just want to. Because "reasons")

 

Which army use downgraded MG3´s?  

[Bitesrad 481]

I actually didn't call for that many guns in the commission. The commission calls for the HK416A5 in both black and RAL8000 with variants for either an HK GLM or an HK battlegrip in three barrel lengths (11",14.5" and 16.5"). The OG HK416 in its last configuration with variants for either an HK GLM or an HK battlegrip in three barrel lengths (10.4",14.5" and 16.5") and finally two custom American HK416's, which I will once again list the parts for (because I have an unhealthy love of custom AR15's despite being one of dem damn European liberals):

Devgru 416:

• Magpul CTR stock (Black)
• Hogue overmolded rubber grip (Black)
• Remington RAHG Handguard (Black)
• Magpul RVG (Black)
• Magpul Emag (Black)
• BLACKOUT 51T Flash Hider (An M4-2000 to mount to it would be appreciated)

Gun of War_Lord:

 

• Vltor IMOD stock (FDE)
• BCM Gunfighter Mod 3 grip (FDE) & Trigger guard (Black)
• Geissele MK4 Handguard (Desert Dirt colour)
• Magpul AFG-2 (Black)
• Magpul Emag (Black)
• AAC BLACKOUT 51T Flash Hider (Hopefully with the appropriate suppressor)
• Troy folding BUIS sights, HK front and round rear (Black)
• Phase 5 extended Bolt release V2

I don't know what Toadie might throw in in addition to that. For example, we're getting far more with the P226 pack than just the stuff I asked and paid for. Personally I don't think the IAR and the HK416C are worth bothering with. RHS already has a perfectly good M27, and anyone playing USMC is probably already going to be using RHS. As for the HK416C, wasn't adopted by anyone in substantial numbers, impossible to get any sort of cheekweld with that stock, and a 9" barrel just isn't sufficient.  

 

The second one is very close to a CAG 416, isnt it? Apart from the stock maybe. In any case, thank you for commissioning them (and toadie for actually making them  :D)

[war_lord 934]

Reducing the rate of fire isn't a downgrade, it's common sense. The high rate of fire is a total waste and an encumbrance in modern combat. 

[b00ce 160]

The MG3 is NOT A LMG! It cannot fired from standing position, you have to go prone!

Its a heavy machine gun like the M2. Not per definition ( larger caliber ) but trough the fire rate!

I'm confused then...

Also

The "weight" of the machinegun is definitely based on caliber. Much like above .50 is generally considered a cannon.

As a side note, I come in contact with M240H fairly regularly. With the egress kit installed, it isn't too unwieldy to shoot from the shoulder. I wouldn't be able to shoulder it for an extended period because it IS 26 lbs (Heavier than the MG3 at 23 lbs). That said, generally speaking, the weapon would not be employed standing unless absolutely necessary because it is more effective from the prone with the bipod extended.

[astrell 3]

@b00ce 

the picture have the name mg42fun  :rolleyes:

 

Seems not pretty useful if you need always somebody to hold ya back, but looks god damn badass! 

(srly, do you see somebody aim? Hipfire in real combat situation? srly?) 

 

 

https://youtu.be/-1tHSWgT41c?t=30

 

Trust me, its just for fun ( many many fun to be honest. Brrrrrt for the World!!!) 

[Eagle1992 373]

The MG3 is NOT A LMG! It cannot fired from standing position, you have to go prone!

Its a heavy machine gun like the M2. Not per definition ( larger caliber ) but trough the fire rate! 

 

 

Says he is a german army soldier, doesn't even know that it is possible to shoot the MG3 in Deutschuss, which is firing from the hip, in a standing position.

Please go somewhere else Mr. Armchair Operator.

 

HMGs are definded by their caliber! Not anything else.

 

While you're correct about the RoF, most german Army MG3s that are used for training are at 900 rpm, only the ones used in real combat, are shooting at 1200 rpm.

[b00ce 160]

Seems not pretty useful if you need always somebody to hold ya back, but looks god damn badass! 

(srly, do you see somebody aim? Hipfire in real combat situation? srly?)

; but none the less, if I get shot down, I'm not going to bother with the egress kit. I'm going to hold it by the carry handle and the spade grip and shoot from the hip like its a smart-gun. :D

 

[Hvymtal 1251]

And since training makes up the majority of a western military weapon's life time, it makes sense to ease up on it for training purposes, and 900rpm with 7.62 NATO is, ehm, plenty enough. The MAG is quite a bit less and it is still a total face-wrecker.

And the MG3 is a GPMG (General-Purpose Machine Gun), not an HMG. HMGs are big, heavy, and practically speaking can only be used from tripods or semi-permanent mounts because good fucking luck trying to use it standing, examples include the good old M2 as well as the old Maxim (While most modern HMGs fire much larger rounds, the Maxim qualifies due to its weight and sustained fire ability). GPMGs are light enough to be carried by one person in fire-and-maneuver tactics and shot from standing like an LMG (though a rested position is always preferred with any machine gun) while firing a heavy enough round to be useful on a tripod firing from a stationary position like an HMG, examples being the PK, MAG, and of course the MG42 and its derivates. While ther Germans like to use the MG3 in roles normally filled by HMGs that does not make it an HMG, just as a MAG in those uses would not be.

As for BOOCE, I doubt you're the only one who would take the machine gun with them :D

EDIT Minor error, the NATO 250 round ball only belt is mislabeled 200 round and weighs the same as a 100 round belt. Call me crazy, maybe booce or eagle could chime in if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly sure 250 rounds of 7.62 solid link is going to weigh a bit more than 100 rounds.

Also the MG/M62's bipod doesn't deploy and you thus partially clip into the ground

[b00ce 160]

As for BOOCE, I doubt you're the only one who would take the machine gun with them :D

EDIT Minor error, the NATO 250 round ball only belt is mislabeled 200 round and weighs the same as a 100 round belt. Call me crazy, maybe booce or eagle could chime in if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly sure 250 rounds of 7.62 solid link is going to weigh a bit more than 100 rounds.

Well, its either that or you only have an M9 and the pilots have M4s. Plus there's the fact that weapons are "sensitive items" and I don't think anyone wants the reaming from the big green weenie that comes with leaving your assigned weapon behind (The machine guns are assigned to the crew-chiefs/door-gunners, not the aircraft).

As for the ammo weight, what makes you think that a 250 round belt is going to weigh more than a 100 round belt? They actually weigh LESS. Duh!

[Hvymtal 1251]

Maybe in a box on a helicopter Mr. door gunner :rolleyes:

[ThrashInc 31]

I think by the admission that in training, it runs at 900RPM and in combat it runs at 1200RPM, it wouldn't make sense for it not to run at 1200RPM if the mod is going for accuracy.

 

While most LMG's run slower nowadays, there's always a place for throwing rounds downrange.  The Negev can run at 1150, and you can easily clear rooms with it/fire it standing up - and it weighs slightly less than the Mk.46, though I personally find the barrel changes to be easier on the Negev.

[Hvymtal 1251]

I personally am of the opinion that dumping 250 rounds of 7.62 NATO in about 28 seconds is sufficient suppression. It'll also make it a bit more useable with ACE considering how quickly 7.62mm GPMGs heat up as it is. Sure it'd be nice if it were 1200rpm but it doesn't share ammo with anything else and there is an MG42 KWS :)

Maybe its to differentiate the MG3 and MG42 a bit more considering they again don't share ammo with any other weapon and thus they'd effectively be identical otherwise. I guess the MG3 could use M13/DM60 disintegrating link that everyone else uses but it doesn't in this instance until/unless CUP or RHS or ACE configs come round so :P

[kickapoo0 88]

I don´t wanna pull that discussion to length( i´ll do it anyway), but there are 2 points.

 

1. Astrell is right, in the Bundeswehr nobody uses a version with 900 rpm. 

    Although i would say, to leave the gun as it is. Toadie did a wonderful job and 

    Arma tends to not being able to make a rate of fire over 1100 rpm when the server

    is busy. You will have less frames and therefore a lower firerate.

 

2. Astrell is also correct about the gun being a "prone only" or at least not a standing position gun.

    The MG3 and MG42 are recoil operated systems. If you shoot it from the hip or even from the shoulder

     you might get malfunctions, with the gun not cycling properly

 

     https://youtu.be/Np6N_JKJaEA