VBS2/3 Discussion thread - the one and only

[st_dux 26]

ArmA 1.

[NZXSHADOWS 0]

Depends on what version is used. SO if VBS2 2.0 is RV3 engine then its going to have A2 content.

[walker 0]

Hi all

As I pointed out earlier BIS them selves have stated that VBS follows the game engine released for the game. They develop and beta test for the game. Which makes money and cover costs.

This results in stable platform, that needs less major programing input and most of the development costs are covered, that is then exploited in a new market as a Cash Cow, military simulation, along with market specific modifications and additions such as AAR, and Part Task Trainers (PTT) for various training needs like helicopter load-masters, IED response etc.

So VBS always starts engine wise ~12 months behind the ArmA, though specific modifications included in VBS make it superior for the simulation market. And as patch iterations of the engine are released and stability is achieved in the game VBS mirrors this, and eventually starts to catch with ArmA, just before a major engine change takes place.

So with the release of VBSII 1.5 I would guess ArmA 3 is not very far away.

Beating Competitors on reliability

Because all the development is done for a mass market with very high expectations from demanding customers, any one notice how game customers whine about a rivet out of place? A bug in a game will be spotted by one of the millions of customers, this enables BIS to out compete in terms of reliability and stability over every bespoke simulation supplier; who could never afford to do the Beta testing every game company does as part of their normal business model.

Beating Competitors on technical capability

The business model of the bespoke supplier is to provide what the customer asks for; in a build to specified requirements model. Sounds sensible! But it ain't.

It assumes the customer knows what they want! Trust me they don't. Did you know you wanted a computer before it was invented? Did you know you liked papaya until you tasted it? Unless you are a serious systems analyst you don't even have an inkling of what you want, heck a systems analyst does not know what you want until it is half built!

And as for invention and innovation, forget it. It is inherent in the concept you will know you want it after it is made!

So fundamentally the build to requirement model will always result in a technically inferior product as it is designed to meet customers expectations, NOT exceed them!

Where as games have to exceed customer expectations to get the WOW factor needed to draw in customers.

This in turn leads to a philosophy of managing customer expectations and indeed large amounts of the cost of developing in the bespoke market is spent on managing customer expectations. Under VV&A, technical analysis, capability analysis, ass analysis... etc.

Beating Competitors on Price and flexibility

The Bespoke market is fundamentally flawed though. It contains its own demise in the concept of Cost Plus.

Cost Plus means your economic model is based on providing the MOST EXPENSIVE PRODUCT in order to make the BIGGEST PROFIT.

Hint 10% of a Billion is a lot bigger than 10% of a Million.

It also means if you build a product that is flexible you are removing the chance of future profits by providing a possible future revenue source for free! So once again the build to specified requirements model is reinforced as part of the core business model.

BIS take the opposite view

Because most of the costs of game engine development are absorbed by the game any profits from additional income streams such as military and civil simulation or film making are cash cows. So BIS's simulation development cost are very low.

The profits from the cash cows are then plowed back in to research in to the game and the game engine, with additional inputs on design concepts from the other income streams informing the core product.

This means that BIS can present its product to the military and civil simulation market at a fraction of the cost of its competitors, in fact orders of magnitude below their lowest possible price, about 10th to 100th even 1000th the cost of its competitors.

Thus BIS have been able to wipe out many of its competitors who's business structure means they can no longer compete; and this in turn has allowed BIS to take over their markets, thus increasing its profits.

For the customer it has meant very significant savings, which with austerity in the wind, have been very welcome.

So in the end the customer has got a much more flexible, reliable, technically capable and cheap simulation product.

That is why it has been adopted as the de facto simulation across NATO, ABCA and PFP countries and alliances.

Kind Regards walker

Edited May 17, 2011 by walker

[walker 0]

...So VBS always starts engine wise ~12 months behind the ArmA, though specific modifications included in VBS make it superior for the simulation market. And as patch iterations of the engine are released and stability is achieved in the game VBS mirrors this, and eventually starts to catch with ArmA, just before a major engine change takes place.

So with the release of VBSII 1.5 I would guess ArmA 3 is not very far away...

Hi all

My use of Bold in the quote.

What about that for prediction?

Kind Regards walker

[noubernou 77]

Hi all

My use of Bold in the quote.

What about that for prediction?

Kind Regards walker

Psh, I made that assumption since ITSEC. :p

[NZXSHADOWS 0]

Found a site that has some reading GameTech

.pdf GameTech Intro VBS2

[Kingsmurfy 10]

So what do you think will happen now that CryEngine is also being used for the military?

[walker 0]

So what do you think will happen now that CryEngine is also being used for the military?

Hi Kingsmurfy

This is thread about VBS.

Lets us try to keep it on topic ;)

There is already a thread disicussing the CryEngine's use as a competitor to VBS here:

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=112877

Kind Regards walker

[msy 22]

So what do you think will happen now that CryEngine is also being used for the military?

Maybe Crytec wants to tell soldiers how to disappear?:D

[Kingsmurfy 10]

Hi Kingsmurfy

This is thread about VBS.

Lets us try to keep it on topic ;)

There is already a thread disicussing the CryEngine's use as a competitor to VBS here:

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=112877

Kind Regards walker

Sorry, I was hoping to find out more the future of VBS after the news but oh well.

[walker 0]

Hi Kingsmurfy

I think you will find out a whole bunch of things about VBS if you follow the links in NZXSHADOWS's excellent post of links he found:

Found a site that has some reading GameTech

.pdf GameTech Intro VBS2

And of course there will probably be a round up from ITEC on the BI Simulation site soon.

http://www.bisimulations.com/

You can get some idea of how successful VBS has been by this Quote from Army Col. Anthony D. Krogh: director of the National Simulation Center, part of the Combined Arms Center at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas:

...“In terms of virtual worlds, our primary focus is on Virtual Battlespace 2, the VBS2 game,†Krogh said. “Gaming initially got a bad rap because a lot of us had teenagers who were playing Xbox and Nintendo instead of doing their homework. Fortunately, we as leaders grew into this and recognized the value.â€

VBS2 has been particularly successful, he said. “Arguably, it’s one of the most successful simulations we’ve ever brought to the force,†he added. “In terms of cost versus usage, it’s a huge success.â€...

My use of bold in the quoted text.

http://www.armyflier.com/pdf/e-edition.pdf

As always follow the link to the original text in full.

Kind Regards walker

Edited June 1, 2011 by walker

[walker 0]

Hi all

A video of Forward Observers using VBS to train on calling in fire.

EyZ_3d8trYo

Kind Regards walker

[walker 0]

Hi all

For those of you who are interested. ;)

http://www.terratools.org/brochures/products/plugins/abbottabad_brochure.pdf

Kind Regards walker

[valhallanguines 10]

OK so this is probably the dumbest question of my life but...

Can any of the content in VBS2 VTK be used in ARMA 2? Like I said not a very intelligent question but a nagging one.

Cheers,

Greeson

[[aps]gnat 28]

No. Its encriped or something or other etc

[icebreakr 3107]

Well, terrains work ;)

[NZXSHADOWS 0]

Yes an No, Thats about as much info I want to give. But It may be a good idea to check out some of the articles an other links provided in this thread to get you up to speed.

my fav link.

http://www.teamorlando.org/gametech/downloads/2011/presentations/20110323_GameTech_Intro_VBS2.pdf

[valhallanguines 10]

I do not have VBS2, although I would love to. I just like a lot of the models for the soldiers, especially Great Britain so I was just curious. Thanks you guys.

Cheers

---------- Post added at 03:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:19 PM ----------

Wow thanks for showing me that NZ. I really wish that ARMA 2 had that wounding system! Dear Lord that is exceptional!

[noubernou 77]

Having spent a quite a bit of time in VBS2 the last 9 months I can safely say that ArmA2 is much nicer to develop in, and over all just feels better.

The additional units are not worth the cost if you aren't using it in a large organization for training.

[walker 0]

Hi all

Lasershot marksmanship training using VBS.

BTooECYtkW0

Kind Regards walker

Edited June 8, 2011 by walker

[dmarkwick 261]

Having spent a quite a bit of time in VBS2 the last 9 months I can safely say that ArmA2 is much nicer to develop in, and over all just feels better.

The additional units are not worth the cost if you aren't using it in a large organization for training.

I agree. I dabbled in VBS2 for a while and my overriding impression was that it is a lot more locked down and generally casual-mod unfriendly. By comparison ArmA2 is wide open and seems just more fluid.

To be sure, there are some features in VBS2 that would be nice in ArmA2/3, but given the choice I go for ArmA2/3.

[NZXSHADOWS 0]

I dont know why anyone would ever compare VBS2 against ARMA 2 thats just wrong an unfair. Now compare A1 to VBS2 an then I could see an argument of which is preferred, liked etc.

[OChristie 0]

They were designed for completley differnet markets so compairing them would be rediculous.

A1/A2 = Whatever the Devs want to put in next or release to public.

VBS2 = Whatever the customer funds development of and whatever they want to release to the Public.

[.kju 3240]

xaitment Partners with Bohemia Interactive (Simulations)

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/pressreleases/73643/xaitment_Partners_with_Bohemia_Interactive.php

[Colossus 2]

Great! I suppose part of the purpose is to simulate driving trough Kabul and other crowded cities. This tech seems quite handy for these types of senarios.

Also, inb4 possible ArmA 3 nagging.