RHS Escalation (AFRF and USAF)

[goosevich 10]

Damian90 & Bospor

You are both right and wrong.

First of all - it's all good and fun when it's theory. Unfortunatly we can't test it.

Also all those discussions miss on one point - who notices the enemy and shoots first + the terrain those tanks would be fighting in (additional steepnes added to the armor etc)

Let's just not start a flame war on that subject :) Yup the armor has to be patched for both sides, but still it's quite believable and kinda close to reality IMO (even tho it ain't the new Steel Beasts ;) ).

[EricJ 759]

If you're using Steal Beasts as a benchmark then that's some good shit...

[Damian90 697]

Steel Beasts also don't have perfect models, I actually talked with one of their artists and he admitted they got for example Abrams armor greatly underestimated, while some other tanks are overestimated to the point of absurd. ;)

I am currently calculating my own estimations based on TE values for different materials and known armor models.

I will say it this way. Calculating Russian tanks is relatively easy as their armor design is relatively simple, so I must admit my calculations are more or less the same as any other estimations you can find.

However with Abrams it's start to be interesting! It's armor model can be very complex and thus I cam up with different armor protection estimations, so I need to sit a bit over this problem and figure out the most close to reality armor model for this tank.

I will give you example of my calculations:

TE (thickness efficency) data table for different armor materials:

RHA - 1,0 TE vs KE/1,0 TE vs CE

CHA - 0,9-0,92 TE vs KE/0,9-0,92 TE vs CE

SHS – 1,2 TE vs KE/1,2 TE vs CE

HHS – 1,3 TE vs KE/1,3 TE vs CE

THS - 1,8 TE vs KE/1,3 TE vs CE

AD-97 – 0,97 TE vs KE/1,5 TE vs CE

DUA – 1,3 TE vs KE/1,5 TE vs CE

Air – 0 TE vs KE/0,26 TE vs CE

Rubber - ? TE vs KE/? TE vs CE

To calculate you multiplicate armor plate thickness through TE value of material from which it is made from. For example 50 x 1.2 = 60.

M1A1HC/M1A1AIM armor estimations (based on simplified assumed model of the armor internal design):

Front turret - Physical thickness ~850-900mm - array design - 50mm HHS (65mm TE vs KE/CE) + 5mm Air (1,3mm TE vs CE) + 5mm HHS + 5mm Rubber + 5mm HHS (x5 layers = 75mm / 97,5mm TE vs KE/CE) + 5mm Air + 10mm HHS + 10mm DUA + 10mm HHS (x 5 layers = 150 / 195mm VS KE - 225mm vs CE) + 5mm Air (1,3 TE vs CE) + 5mm HHS + 5mm Rubber + 5mm HHS (x5 layers = 75 / 97,5mm TE vs KE/CE) + 5mm Air (1,3mm TE vs CE) + 10mm HHS + 10mm DUA + 10mm HHS (x 5 layers = 150 / 195mm VS KE - 225mm vs CE) + 5mm Air (1,3mm TE vs CE) + 10mm HHS + 10mm DUA + 10mm HHS (x 5 layers = 150 / 195mm VS KE - 225mm vs CE) + 50mm HHS (60mm vs KE/CE) + 5mm Air (1,3mm TE vs CE) + 10mm HHS (12mm vs KE/CE) + 110mm RHA = 1027mm vs KE/1124mm vs CE.

Front hull - Physical thickness ~700-750mm - array design - 50mm HHS (65mm TE vs KE/CE) + 5mm Air (1,3mm TE vs CE) + 5mm HHS + 5mm Rubber + 5mm HHS (x5 layers = 75mm / 97,5mm TE vs KE/CE) + 5mm Air + 10mm HHS + 10mm DUA + 10mm HHS (x 5 layers = 150 / 195mm VS KE - 225mm vs CE) + 5mm Air (1,3 TE vs CE) +5mm HHS + 5mm Rubber + 5mm HHS (x5 layers = 75 / 97,5mm TE vs KE/CE) + 5(1,3mm TE vs CE)mm Air + 10mm HHS + 10mm DUA + 10mm HHS (x 5 layers = 150 / 195mm VS KE - 225mm vs CE) + 5mm Air (1,3mm TE vs CE) + 5mm HHS + 10mm DUA + 1mm HHS (x 5 layers = 100 / 130mm VS KE - 150mm vs CE) + 5mm Air (1,3mm TE vs CE) + 110mm RHA = 890mm vs KE/977mm vs CE.

Side turret - Physical thickness ~350-400mm - array design - WIP

Side hull - Physical thickness ~70mm + 640mm Air (suspension) + 70mm - array design - 70mm (84mm vs KE/CE) + 640mm (166,4mm vs CE) + 70mm (84mm vs KE/CE) = 168mm vs KE/334mm vs CE.

Rear turret - Physical thickness ~50-60mm - array design - WIP

Rear hull - Physical thickness ~40-50mm - array design - WIP

Top turret - Physical thickness ~40-70mm - array design - WIP

Belly hull - Physical thickness ~40-50mm - array design - WIP

T-80B/BV (BK/BVK) armor estimations:

Front turret - Physical thickness 531mm - array design - 191mm CHA (0,9-0,92 vs KE/CE) + 122mm "Sand Rod" (AD-97 used as a model/0,97 vs KE/1,5 vs CE) + 218mm CHA (0,9-0,92 vs KE/CE) = 171/175mm vs KE/CE + 118mm vs KE/183mm vs CE + 196/200mm vs KE/CE = 485/493mm vs KE/550/558mm vs CE.

Front hull - Physical thickness 220 @ 68 stopni = 587mm - array design - 50mm SHS (60 vs KE/CE) + 35mm AD-97 (33mm vs KE/52mm vs CE) + 50mm SHS (60 vs KE/CE) + 35mm AD-97 (33mm vs KE/52mm vs CE) + 50mm RHA = 236 @ 68 degrees = 502mm vs KE/274 @ 68 degrees = 583mm vs CE.

I don't say this is perfect, and there might be some serious errors.

But I observed that my armor calculations for Abrams are very close to the observations of armor designers from UK and US, where they said that their armor (or actually various types of armors developed within program "Burlington/Starflower") can be tuned by changing layers quantity, thickness and used materials, so as I said earlier, I need to sit over this and try various different combinations to get results that can be assumed as realistic.

Note!

Armor model for T-80B/BV is not my fantasy, but it is based on real life data, declassified data, and observations made on damaged or destroyed tanks of this type.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Damian90

[Royal8800 10]

Javelin doesn't work :(

[Stagler 39]

Javelin doesn't work :(

Question: Are you working it right?

Are you pressing lock (default T) to lock the target, and waiting for the lock tone before firing?

[reyhard 2082]

I think he means, that Javelin doesn't do any damage - it's bug and should be fixed in next version

[drakedaeron 13]

It's me or rockets of Katioucha does nothing to the M1A2 Abrams TUSK?

I have does 6 raids on his position, the other vehicles exploded but not him, nevertheless, I took the heavy artillery.

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2014/44/1414688561-2014-10-30-00001.jpg

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2014/44/1414688560-2014-10-30-00002.jpg

I love your mod, it's better than Bohemia DLC.

[Damian90 697]

On screenshot I seen it is badly damaged and disabled, so it does something to that tank.

On the other hand the goal would be to make things realistic, and in reality Abrams tanks don't explode as they have isolated ammunition compartments with blow off panels... actually tanks rarely explode, most times if ammunition starts to burn there is no explosions, just very violent fire.

[EricJ 759]

It's also ArmaLogic so it's not a real detailed damage model in the first place.

Anyway nice calculations but realistically...

[goosevich 10]

@ Damian90

Yeah Steel Beasts ain't perfect but it's the best we've got ATM. But i guess it will never be perfect untill the abrams will nail few T80's and vice versa ;)

Those calculations certainly look good and make sense. I think i saw similar calculations out there, but never bothered to count those TE's myself.

[Damian90 697]

There is allways margin of error, I try to make more sense from it so Reyhard will be able to implement improved armor models. Later I should also look in to weak zones in vehicles armor (like gun mantlets).

I also made a different calculation for Abrams using different internal structure.

Front turret - Physical thickness ~900mm - array design - 50mm HHS (60mm vs KE/CE) + 10mm Air (2,6mm vs CE) + 10mm HHS + 5mm Rubber + 10mm HHS (x5 = 125mm - 150mm vs KE/CE)) + 10mm Air (2,6mm vs CE) + 25mm HHS + 50mm DUA + 25mm HHS (x5 = 500 - 650mm vs KE/750mm vs CE) + 10mm Air (2,6mm vs CE) + 10mm HHS + 5mm Rubber + 10mm HHS (x4 = 100mm - 120mm vs KE/CE) + 95mm HHS (114mm vs KE/CE) = 1094mm vs KE/1201mm vs CE.

Front hull - Physical thickness ~750mm - array design - 50mm HHS (60mm vs KE/CE) + 10mm Air (2,6mm vs CE) + 10mm HHS + 5mm Rubber + 10mm HHS (x5 = 125mm - 150mm vs KE/CE)) + 10mm Air (2,6mm vs CE) + 25mm HHS + 50mm DUA + 25mm HHS (x5 = 500 - 650mm vs KE/750mm vs CE) + 65mm HHS (78mm vs KE/CE) = 938mm vs KE/1043mm vs CE.

IMHO it looks a bit better, to be honest huge problem is to find a good ratio between different materials to have realistic KE and CE value, and to make that CE value greater than KE, just like in real life.

Ah... it will be a long night. :P

[ArmedONE 10]

Is there somesort of dedicated bug report thread for this mod? I found another pretty critical bug (In my opinion anyways) with the BMP 2, when I fire the autocannon, everything is fine, when the AI does it, the game starts stuttering and lagging like crazy untill it stops firing, I have a clean arma 3, no mods other than this one.

[mistyronin 1181]

Is there somesort of dedicated bug report thread for this mod?

You can use this thread, and we filter it :)

I found another pretty critical bug (In my opinion anyways) with the BMP 2, when I fire the autocannon, everything is fine, when the AI does it, the game starts stuttering and lagging like crazy untill it stops firing, I have a clean arma 3, no mods other than this one.

I'll try to reproduce it. Thank you for the report!

EDIT: In my PC the BMP-2 doesn't lag at all when the AI shoots. Try reducing your graphical settings ( probably "particles" ).

Edited October 30, 2014 by MistyRonin

[ArmedONE 10]

I am quite positive that it is because of the BMP 2 because any other autocannon (Including the much more rapid fire GAU 8) do not lag, I have also reduced my settings to the absolute minimum possible when I play maxed out at 50 FPS, this has also happened on a clean install of arma 3, not counting the russian tanks not reacting to threats as fast as the american tanks do, it is almost like the commander does not give out orders or something. I have also re-installed the mod twice now. Am I just lucky?

[Defunkt 431]

Ah... it will be a long night. :P

We'll all be willing you on. Better armour for ArmA!

[frostie12345 48]

anyone have that problem to ?

I cant find the US Gear in Zeus but i find the vehicles and soldiers but not the personal gear.

[mistyronin 1181]

anyone have that problem to ?

I cant find the US Gear in Zeus but i find the vehicles and soldiers but not the personal gear.

I believe it's not added yet.

[alexgardien5 6]

The body armor of USA Unit is pretty weak compare to the vanilla Plate carrier... is this a bug ?

[MarcusCunningham 11]

I'll talk to Alex, see what he thinks. I could see different approaches, from optional config entries (cse_isMedicClass=1; <- Vanilla would simply ignore it) to a config patch. It depends on what the RHS Team is comfortable with.

From our point of view, it needs to be optional, so other total-gameplay-mods (like AGM) don't start having issues due to it.

Yeah of course.

Just thought for game play purposes for communities that use CSE, so medics actually play a large role.

If I'm not correct, someone has already made a AGM optional config, or I saw something about AGM, so I was just wandering if CSE was in the works.

[janus0104 3]

Yeah of course.

Just thought for game play purposes for communities that use CSE, so medics actually play a large role.

If I'm not correct, someone has already made a AGM optional config, or I saw something about AGM, so I was just wandering if CSE was in the works.

Current plan is just to add a module in CSE soonâ„¢ that allows giving out basic medical supplies to infantry and proper loadout to medics (the setMedicClass module). Might support an optional cse_isMedic=1; config flag, but we're not gonna force anyone to add it in their mod.

[snackynak 38]

Edit: moved to alive thread.

Edited October 31, 2014 by snackynak

[HotShot 0]

Great Mod! I'm particularly happy that it includes a couple of nice missions, along with great units!

[arjay 7]

First off, thanks for making this mod, I've been a RHS fan since the T-72 pack for operation flashpoint.

But, I've been having some issues with this mod when used in conjunction with the Alive mod and I was wondering if anyone else has been running into the same issues, or if it's just me.

1. The AICommander only assigns groups with BMP-2s to random patrols, never to attack an objective. I've tested this using the mechanized BMP-2 squad group and swapping out the BMP-2 with every other russian vehicle from the mod. Doesn't seem to be an issue with BMP-1, BTRs, or BMDs, they all mount up and beeline straight to the nearest objective.

2. The military placement module(Civ, mil, and Cus) don't spawn mechanized units. I've tested this using the unit over ride fields in the placement modules, set all values except mechanized to 0 and the only things that spawn are infantry. Lots of infantry. Setting all but motorized to 0 will spawn trucks, setting all but armored to 0 spawns tanks, ect, ect.

3. The artillery from RHS can't be used with alive's player support module. They will show up on the menu, but there's no selectable fire missions. Though, I think this is more definitely an issue with alive and not RHS, as I think it has to do with the ammo selection in the arty module is only for vanilla.

Please report any ALiVE issues with RHS to the ALiVE thread or forums, the integration is still WIP, and mainly is on the ALiVE side so more useful to post to us directly

[maturin 12]

I just watched PhanTactical's rundown of all the Russian units, and they appear to have two vehicles that I don't. Where is the Sprut and MLR BMD? I can't find them anywhere in the editor.

[mistyronin 1181]

I just watched PhanTactical's rundown of all the Russian units, and they appear to have two vehicles that I don't. Where is the Sprut and MLR BMD? I can't find them anywhere in the editor.

These vehicles ( Sprut and BMD family ) are used mainly by the VDV. Check the VDV faction ( tank and IFV ).