Challenges of Jungle/Marine Warfare in Tanoa

[froggyluv 2135]

The trailer looked real nice but was concerned at the lack of *cough* enthusiasm or statements regarding anything but the beautiful new landmass and dx12.

Jungle.

Looks fantastic and lends itself to mystery, intriguing story lines and potentially great combat but posses quite a few concerns for current state of AI and this engine. Games that excel in jungle warfare, the close cousin of urban cqb, tend to have their AI built for that scope, that is, a smaller radius of awareness and somewhat working camoflage that lends itself to ambush. Arma, having taken major strides for urban cqb since OFP via micropathfinding, leaning from corners and now suppression still has a long way to go to really nail the feel down.

A. Spotting: Despite the endless debate whether AI see thru objects at players or not, it's pretty clear that these guys are built to spot things at very long ranges and quickly with very little commotion which earns them the Terminator-like nametag so often. By commotion I mean lack of adjustment period either by animation, vocal or both that they may have indeed just spotted a threat before they attack. It's all too common to hear the familiar callout:

"Man. Left. 500."

..in which Player seems to have no chance of either spotting or properly orienting himself to identify. How will this playout in dense jungle environment? With the current system I'd suspect Player would be last man on totem pole to know what and who the hell his squad is shooting at and where. Then again, lowering AI's spotting distance via somehow letting it 'know it's in the jungle', could lead to ridiculously other stupid Ai behavior such as not being able to see a clear threat 300m out.

Next comes camo. If your wearing all green that matches perfectly the surrounding flora yet have your green torso exposed thru an open section of plant geometry are you now plain as day?

Solution to these problems is unknown as there aren't really any games that pull off the ability for AI to appear realistic in both dense cqb areas and long range firefights up to 800m that I know of.

B. Shout Outs and Orientation: Remember when Arrma 2 promised us verbal taunts by the enemy? We need more of that -MUCH more! Again the thrill of jungle warfare is the sudden explosion of violence. Creeping along, checking every direction twice as well as the ground for trip mines and when shit lights up -all hell breaks loose! Hard to accomplish this with silent AI who don't seem to care whether or not they lose their pixeled existence. Here I'd like to see Battlefield styled screaming and banter for aggression, sniper, shocked, scared and routed etc...

Currently I find it extremely difficult to locate the enemy that my AI squad or even myself has called out even with gamehelpers enabled. "Infantry. 75. Left" tells me next to nothing in busy environment. First off, "Infantry" shouldn't be used. Either "enemy", "unknown" or "friendly" would work. Being on a busy Nato base and hearing my guys call out every other swinging dick around us is just weird. "75" is the minimum distance reference used...WHY? Is "Imminent, 25, 50, 75" that hard? How about enemies that are at different elevation and upstairs on a roof, can not "Contact! Enemy rooftop/building/tower/treetop" be used? Hoping for a big improvement here.

Maritime

Let me start off by saying I know next to nothing about naval combat but I do know we are going to be doing alot of fighting in and around water so deserves discussion.

Lets be frank, scuba fighting is just not that great. Much like Star Citizens much ballyhooed zero-g infantry combat, it sounds great in theory but actual gameplay is meh. What would make diving ops more appealing would be a higher simulation standard. Realistic gauges, air tanks etc much like Feint's work, would add much more to the combat element especially if that equipment was vulnerable.

The ocean and underwater environment needs more sensation as well via more wildlife, the pull of the sea, waves crashing ashore, and storms having a much bigger effect on craft.

[lukio 18]

Jungle:

Play N'Ziwasago to get a feel for fighting enemies in the jungle. Turn enablesentences off. The AI reports often create more confusion than necessary if you move with your unit close knit and make regular stops to check for areas in the vicinity you should be good.

Maritime:

I am really hoping for more naval assets and a better maritime experience. The whole diving thing is only useful for sabotage or infiltration missions, nevertheless I'm hoping with Tanoa we will see a lot more of that.

[semiconductor 309]

Jungle.

great combat

I can't quite understand how come that word "jungle" is not considered to be an antonym to "great combat". The only thing for which jungle combat is great is F-4 Phantom with napalm bombs, for pretty much everything else it's the worst thing imaginable. Jungle combat might be challenging, interesting, special but definitely not great. Especially for PvP — AI at least is not going to lie under a bush waiting for another player to run out of patience and then shoot him out of nowhere.

Unless I'm missing something, BI have chosen a very peculiar place that likely will not provide a diverse and dynamic gameplay.

Edited June 17, 2015 by Semiconductor

[krycek 349]

I'm looking forward to the extra units more than the terrain.Seeing Tanoa I can't wait to not being able to see shit and getting wacked by T-800s that somehow you put 4-5 rounds into them and they still manage to one-shot you.

[mistyronin 1181]

Unless I'm missing something, BI have chosen a very peculiar place that likely will not provide a diverse and dynamic gameplay.

Uhm, in fact it's just the opposite in my opinion.

A Pacific Archipelago means, infantry warfare, amphibious assaults, naval warfare, even air warfare, non-conventional warfare (guerrilla, pirates, terrorists, smugglers, etc.), raids, airborne assaults, submarineborne assaults.

The video already showed places with jungle, some farms and fields, the mine, big industrial complex (for urban warfare).

Only big armor vehicle combat will be degraded, but that has never been the focus of the OFP / Arma series.

For PvP will be the best, as you can reproduce almost all possible scenarios.

[Jona33 51]

Guys, the expansion is not going to be here for not far off a year, at least. Just chill.

[mistyronin 1181]

Guys, the expansion is not going to be here for not far off a year, at least. Just chill.

We are just having fun commenting and giving our opinions on the announcement. Isn't that the goal of this forums?

[I give up 152]

Probably it will fit well with some civilian gameplay, maybe Tanoa Life.

From my side is not what I am looking, I only play with AI and in these scenarios with dense vegetation AI gameplay is not something feasible.

[HorbeySpector 164]

Probably it will fit well with some civilian gameplay, maybe Tanoa Life.

..

Shit storm in 3, 2...

[mistyronin 1181]

Probably it will fit well with some civilian gameplay, maybe Tanoa Life.

From my side is not what I am looking, I only play with AI and in these scenarios with dense vegetation AI gameplay is not something feasible.

You are basing your opinion in?

[I give up 152]

In current gameplay, and in over thousands hours of experience playing exclusively with AI.

[mistyronin 1181]

In current gameplay, and in over thousands hours of experience playing exclusively with AI.

I have also played a good amount of hours in SP with only AI, for more than 10 years actually. And the new terrain looks fitting for most kinds of warfare with AI (in fact it allows more options than Altis).

Why wouldn't it be?

[Jona33 51]

We are just having fun commenting and giving our opinions on the announcement. Isn't that the goal of this forums?

True, but all those prophesying about AI and performance and all the rest seem to forget that this is a year away, people seem to be getting worked up about this based on 90 seconds of video and about four pictures.

[semiconductor 309]

Only big armor vehicle combat will be degraded, but that has never been the focus of the OFP / Arma series.

I think that armored vehicles are not the only ones who got themselves a ride to the gallows in Tanao.

First, air warfare is going to be very limited at best: helicopters would not be able to see anything in forest and since there's seems to be at least 2 thick forests in 500m radius from any given position, they will be blind and defenseless against practically everything. CAS plane can't make a precise gun run or drop bombs because, again, there is no clear view of enemy/laser target and we haven't saw GPS-guided bombs yet. On the other hand, the size of the map would not allow to employ full-scale bombers.

Light vehicles would have a hard time at Tanoa too - it seems that they will stay in range of RPG shot from nearest forest 70% of the time, let alone guided ATGMs. In that aspect warfare in jungle is not much different from urban warfare and in urban warfare vehicles don't last long. Besides, islands are not connected to each other (in video, at least) with bridges so if your vehicle is not amphibious, you're out of luck.

As for PVP, I was talking form gameplay, not scenario perspective. Here's what I'm trying to say: people are tend to be defensive, especially in games that offer some sort of cover mechanics. Because it's simple, it's obvious and it pays disproportionately. Other things being equal, attacker always have a disadvantage and with Tanoa's foliage, when fire can come from any direction and defenders can easily outmaneuver/escape the attacker, he is in a dire situation. So, as in many other games with cover, players will lie under bushes and wait until enemy will pass by them simply because it's the only effective strategy unless player or team have a good plan or greatly excell their enemy in man- and firepower.

And if that wasn't enough, heavy, medium and light vehicle support is unavailable or can be destroyed quickly (good luck hiding from that AT-4 in the still water, BMP-3 :D), attack helicopters and fixed wing are useless and artillery generally isn't fast an precise enough. The only things that could ruin this guerilla paradise are MLRS and napalm but former are expensive, fragile, need large amount of supply and have other limitations and the latter does not exists.

But, yeah, amphibious and naval vehicles are going to have their long due hour of triumph.

Frankly, although I'm not in awe from the new map, I'm not disappointed in it either. It looks pretty, it has new assets and even if it would be as agile gameplay-wise as other maps I think it's ok for BI to experiment a little since Altis and other maps aren't going anywhere soon. :)

[mistyronin 1181]

True, but all those prophesying about AI and performance and all the rest seem to forget that this is a year away, people seem to be getting worked up about this based on 90 seconds of video and about four pictures.

I agree. I don't understand this pessimism. After looking the video and pics I see a really bright future for the expansion. And seems that BI is working in i proving the AI and pathfinding.

@Semiconductor check the video again, there are plenty of open spaces and fields. More than need for air assaults, artillery, and even armor.

Edited June 17, 2015 by MistyRonin

[I give up 152]

there is no pessimism. just opinions.

[big_t 1]

Shit storm in 3, 2...

It's true though, when watching the demo I was thinking this will lend it's self perfectly to the life mod. The little civilian planes, the open pit mine, jungle. It looks like a very diverse map either way so lots of usage.

[zukov 489]

I think that armored vehicles are not the only ones who got themselves a ride to the gallows in Tanao.

First, air warfare is going to be very limited at best: helicopters would not be able to see anything in forest and since there's seems to be at least 2 thick forests in 500m radius from any given position, they will be blind and defenseless against practically everything. CAS plane can't make a precise gun run or drop bombs because, again, there is no clear view of enemy/laser target and we haven't saw GPS-guided bombs yet. On the other hand, the size of the map would not allow to employ full-scale bombers.

Light vehicles would have a hard time at Tanoa too - it seems that they will stay in range of RPG shot from nearest forest 70% of the time, let alone guided ATGMs. In that aspect warfare in jungle is not much different from urban warfare and in urban warfare vehicles don't last long. Besides, islands are not connected to each other (in video, at least) with bridges so if your vehicle is not amphibious, you're out of luck.

As for PVP, I was talking form gameplay, not scenario perspective. Here's what I'm trying to say: people are tend to be defensive, especially in games that offer some sort of cover mechanics. Because it's simple, it's obvious and it pays disproportionately. Other things being equal, attacker always have a disadvantage and with Tanoa's foliage, when fire can come from any direction and defenders can easily outmaneuver/escape the attacker, he is in a dire situation. So, as in many other games with cover, players will lie under bushes and wait until enemy will pass by them simply because it's the only effective strategy unless player or team have a good plan or greatly excell their enemy in man- and firepower.

And if that wasn't enough, heavy, medium and light vehicle support is unavailable or can be destroyed quickly (good luck hiding from that AT-4 in the still water, BMP-3 :D), attack helicopters and fixed wing are useless and artillery generally isn't fast an precise enough. The only things that could ruin this guerilla paradise are MLRS and napalm but former are expensive, fragile, need large amount of supply and have other limitations and the latter does not exists.

But, yeah, amphibious and naval vehicles are going to have their long due hour of triumph.

Frankly, although I'm not in awe from the new map, I'm not disappointed in it either. It looks pretty, it has new assets and even if it would be as agile gameplay-wise as other maps I think it's ok for BI to experiment a little since Altis and other maps aren't going anywhere soon. :)

AWESOME finally we have fun In PVP! and IMHO the towed artillery come back

[semiconductor 309]

@Semiconductor check the video again, there are plenty of open spaces and fields. More than need for air assaults, artillery, and even armor.

While there is such spaces, they are relatively small, have rough terrain and encircled with forests. There is no reason to stay in the open field when you have excellent cover in a stone's throw distance.

[mistyronin 1181]

While there is such spaces, they are relatively small, have rough terrain and encircled with forests. There is no reason to stay in the open field when you have excellent cover in a stone's throw distance.

As in most of the World. Wars are not usually fight in barrens or deserts.

[bad benson 1733]

i think he (semi) has a point on the large patches of jungle though.

of course it's hard to say from the few camera flights in the video if it's something to worry about. but i think BIS should make sure that they add a lot of rough paths and clearings to make the dense jungle more interesting, diverse and better for gameplay and AI.

it's going to be annoying if you can't even reach most places with a light vehicle. that could make the jungle gameplay very one dimensional (infantry vs infantry) and repetitive.

but there's still a lot of time to do more of that, if needed. so no need to be fatalistic about it (YET:p).

i just hope too that there is not going to be a lot of the same jungle repeating covering a lot of areas. i also hope the vulcano is going to have something of interest inside of it. otherwise it's just a big old landmark taking up a shit load of space.

[-Coulum- 35]

I am also interested to see how the jungle turns out, especially with the ai.

Solution to these problems is unknown as there aren't really any games that pull off the ability for AI to appear realistic in both dense cqb areas and long range firefights up to 800m that I know of.

I believe the thing to tune is not spotting distance, but spotting time. Ai should still spot you at 300m in the jungle (when in LOS). Just it should take alot longer. Like 5 seconds on airport vs 5 minutes in jungle. Line of sight should not mean instant spot (pretty much now). Rather line of sight starts a countdown. When complete the ai spots you. Length of countdown depends on combo of target's terrain, uniform, stance, movement, distance. Ai lose line of sight, countdown counts up until its regained.

That, combined with your mentioned spotting animations/investigative behavior during "countdown" would go a looooong way toward making the ai less terminator and more human.

With the current system I'd suspect Player would be last man on totem pole to know what and who the hell his squad is shooting at and where.

Agreed. You would only see the enemy when they're all dead, or when you're the last man standing. Not so much because of the ai's shitty communication to player (I am all for improving) but rather Ais' overly effective communication among themselves. That's why players feel so clueless. One ai spots something, soon the squad spots it. Player is still wondering who's 9oclock. Imagine the ai each had to spot enemies for themselves. Add in the "countdown" idea^. Players would have a fair chance. Ai Firefights would be longer.

Anyhow my two cents regarding ai in jungle, I am eager to see what comes. I am hoping BI's decision to go with jungle is because they are confident they can make changes to the ai that will make that environment enjoyable.

Edited June 18, 2015 by -Coulum-

[Von Quest 1163]

Since you brought up camo in the jungle....

For years my friends and I have always discussed how great it would be to have actual working camo against enemy AI. Not sure how in the heck you would do it though. Would be freaking awesome!

Like add a Config entry and LOD to the game. Assign a value to the mask and objects that represent a color. Then in uniform Configs, assign a value also for color. Then the game calculates your position, nearest vegetation, and compares that against your uniform value.

The difference in values is then a modifier for enemy seeing/finding you. Thoughts?

I'm sure I'm just daydreaming here, but would love to see working camo in a game.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

I'm sure I'm just daydreaming here, but would love to see working camo in a game.

Well you must be in another world, because Camo does work, in correct situations. One of he reasons I use the Greenback uniform the most, I can go prone in green patches of grass, and I've had people literally walk on-top of me over my body, as if I didn't even exist.

[Rhodesy77 11]

One of the best fire fights I have EVER had in arma was in dence jungle. Playing with UNSUNG back in a2, ran into a patrol and got ambushed, was nuts.