Challenges of Jungle/Marine Warfare in Tanoa

[Defunkt 431]

Well there seems to be a lot of tweaking and fine-tuning of the AI at the moment by BIS so I think it's appropriate to feel hopeful.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

I agree with you, AI needs improvement in certain areas to make the experience better.

Spotting, aiming, reaction times should be balanced out-of-the-box, meaning that they don't require any changes by the player to be realistic.

I know that it is possible already to obtain a good level of AI behavior but i think it requires a lot of fine-tuning or even worse community-developed mods (which require further maintenance time and sometimes degrade the game performance).

I never imagined myself doing scuba firefights (is the enemy expected to keep scuba divers 24/7 patrolling hundreds of square kilometers of underwater terrain waiting for you? lol).

However what I think is of interest to the scope of Arma is rather moving objects from ship (pls BI gibe amphibious assault ships) to shore (pls BI gibe landing crafts) and perform amphibious landings.

Naval warfare, as in ship-to-ship combat and the likes, seemed a bit cluncky even in a strategic game like Wargame Red Dragon, where the size of the terrain was a lot bigger and the game had certain mechanics like radar/anti-radar systems, CIWS, anti-ship capabilities, anything up to frigate-size vessels, in Arma this is amplified by the fact that the size is a lot smaller and they require a lot more detail.

Maybe they would fit well as fire support for ground troops, like a huge powerful piece of artillery at sea. I think that would be nice.

Your asking the wrong questions and over looking the diving aspect of combat almost entirely. It's really about coming under contact underwater, because the enemy is more likely to be watching their base on land, or coast side, depending on the set up. Divers are valuable in a number of ways, mainly playing the Sabotuer role.

And gain, we won't ever see destroyer, or frigate sized ships in Arma 3 that are drivable, and operational, it's far out of scope. The biggest we could ever see is something like Skjold. Anything bigger is as good as a prop, or looks. In regards to transporting things via ship, I'll do a demonstration video of that soon.

[Chairborne 2594]

Your asking the wrong questions and over looking the diving aspect of combat almost entirely. It's really about coming under contact underwater, because the enemy is more likely to be watching their base on land, or coast side, depending on the set up. Divers are valuable in a number of ways, mainly playing the Sabotuer role.

I am not overlooking anything, and i explained why i find it ridiculous such a thing is so emphasized.

Scuba diving (using water to go from point A to point B) is one thing, scuba firefighting is another.

And gain, we won't ever see destroyer, or frigate sized ships in Arma 3 that are drivable, and operational, it's far out of scope. The biggest we could ever see is something like Skjold. Anything bigger is as good as a prop, or looks. In regards to transporting things via ship, I'll do a demonstration video of that soon.

I don't understand if you're criticizing what i said (which is what you then repeated) or agreeing with it. :confused:

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

I am not overlooking anything, and i explained why i find it ridiculous such a thing is so emphasized.

Scuba diving (using water to go from point A to point B) is one thing, scuba firefighting is another.

I don't understand if you're criticizing what i said (which is what you then repeated) or agreeing with it. :confused:

I apologize, i'm currently still sick with the cold, so i am not really in it. Erm, i guess your right, on the point of underwater firefighting, yes. But if you do ever come across another force at sea, the best use for such assets are universal at best. A firefight underwater is likely in a situation where two forces are heading for one goal. A second case, is when a divers can engage surface forces, but the surface forces can't. The SDAR retains the capability of shooting out of the water.

On the note of large ships, i was agreeing that Big ships are a definite no. Medium ships on the other hand are more than possible. I see Diving as more of a logistical asset.

[Imperator[TFD] 444]

Unfortunately (although debatably realistic) the underwater aspect of the game is really only good for insertion/exfiltration portions of a scenario at which point after that it becomes the standard land combat.

[mistyronin 1181]

Unfortunately (although debatably realistic) the underwater aspect of the game is really only good for insertion/exfiltration portions of a scenario at which point after that it becomes the standard land combat.

That could change in the future if BI add more boats / ships. Then it will be also tactic for sabotage.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

Unfortunately (although debatably realistic) the underwater aspect of the game is really only good for insertion/exfiltration portions of a scenario at which point after that it becomes the standard land combat.

which becomes ever more important in an Archipelago terrain. Control of waterways, will be important. Which means that divers will be more important, given there are much more places to insert to, and much more to do.

For a Tanoa, a wealthy country in the South Pacific Ocean, they're bound to have ships. What country wouldn't have ships if it's going to be in the middle of the ocean? This means a far bigger importance to Naval assets is almost guaranteed, given the setting, and situation. I was going to do a smll demonstration with Naval assets, but OBS is giving me problems, so i'll have to finish that tomorrow.

Edited July 16, 2015 by DarkSideSixOfficial

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

Ok, here it is! Marine Warfare from a different perspective.

Since Operation Flashpoint, the Naval scene by Bohemia Interactive... Has been dead. To Arma 1, and 2, remained buggy. But now, in Arma 3 the Technology is present, for a complete and total refitting of actual working assets, that could provide such a whole new robust range of gameplay opportunities. It's possible. In engine.

Mods - ACE3 and ASDG Mk V Soc

ACE3 is used to pick up objects, MK V Soc is used as the basis upon which Naval assets in Arma 3 should be made after, or designed from. The Mk V Soc is the best made Naval asset available for Arma 3, which includes an attractive model of the real life Special Operations Mark 5 Multi-Platform vessel, which is capable of a variety of missions, armaments, and roles. The mod includes transport seats for a large amount of crew, or could be fitted for other purposes. It has working lights, instruments, a stunningly realistic sound to it's real life counterpart, and an assortment of armament including 2x M2 Browning .50 Caliber MG's, 1x 7.62 Minigun, and 1x 40mm Mk19 Auto Launcher.

Sounds good right? No, now comes to good stuff. It's capable of being walked on while stationary. It's also capable of carrying cargo, medical crates, and ammo crates as showcased in the video. Oh, but that's not even all. To my surprise, i was even able to seamlessly deploy the Darter Quad copter from the Mk V Soc. This, is the usability, the feasibility, the complete and total technological capabilities Arma 3 has, and yet, the Vanilla Naval assets lack this kind of attention. This video helps to show each and everyone in the community that this, is real, possible, no matter how much you believe that it's too buggy. In this video, you cannot deny how smooth, and seamless this tech really is, and it actually surprised me how smooth it works. This is just the Mk V Soc. Imagine what else can be created, and how useful that can actually be, for all sorts of different gameplay. Not only does it function as intended... It's also looks so damned good.

What else? Well, there's the fact that there are a few other technologies that would benefit from this. A feature presented long time ago i like to call MIM, or Movement In Movement, is a feature where you can walk, and move around in, and on a moving ship, or object. It has only thus far been tested and proven to work, just as smooth my dedicated community members long time ago. Bring that technology in engine, in a less buggy way, and you have yourself something amazing.

This Demonstration is all thanks to the awesome Arma 3 Community members, the dedicated modders who probably drink endless amounts of coffee to bring this awesome level of detail into the game for everyone to experience, for FREE. You guys, are the true MVP's, and your creations re exactly what keeps this game alive. Hats are most definitely flying everywhere for you all.

Observations in Detail - All objects stay on the ship while stationary, in movement from turns to stops and go's. All physX doing it's beautiful thing, no AttachTo, no scripts, just PhsyX

Weight effects performance! You drive too fast and turn too hard, you'll either flip your boat carrying too much Cargo, or lose all your cargo, forcing your divers if you have any to chase them down from the ocean. This will probably waste your time, which your forces on land probably depend on that medical crate at the bottom now.

All PhysX objects seamlessly work as you'd expect Physics to work. It's a beautiful thing.

Edited July 16, 2015 by DarkSideSixOfficial

[I give up 152]

I cant even imagine the boredom that would be playing missions based on underwater, with divers.

Is like, we spend 30 minutes (or more) swimming to get a headshot, and then? Try again or close the game?

Naval warfare is not something for Arma, imo. There are several games available out there with cool naval battles.

Eventually boat patrols can be used, but mainly for AI.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

I cant even imagine the boredom that would be playing missions based on underwater, with divers.

Is like, we spend 30 minutes (or more) swimming to get a headshot, and then? Try again or close the game?

Naval warfare is not something for Arma, imo. There are several games available out there with cool naval battles.

Eventually boat patrols can be used, but mainly for AI.

You say that now, but you havn't played a game of Arma in a location about the same as Parcel Storm from BF4. That's exactly what Tanoa is, on a more realistic scale. Also, that's just diving stuff. Arma isn't a rush and kill game. Sometimes it's more than just dive, seek, kill.

[skyace65 19]

Ok, here it is! Marine Warfare from a different perspective.

Since Operation Flashpoint, the Naval scene by Bohemia Interactive... Has been dead. To Arma 1, and 2, remained buggy. But now, in Arma 3 the Technology is present, for a complete and total refitting of actual working assets, that could provide such a whole new robust range of gameplay opportunities. It's possible. In engine.

Mods - ACE3 and ASDG Mk V Soc

ACE3 is used to pick up objects, MK V Soc is used as the basis upon which Naval assets in Arma 3 should be made after, or designed from. The Mk V Soc is the best made Naval asset available for Arma 3, which includes an attractive model of the real life Special Operations Mark 5 Multi-Platform vessel, which is capable of a variety of missions, armaments, and roles. The mod includes transport seats for a large amount of crew, or could be fitted for other purposes. It has working lights, instruments, a stunningly realistic sound to it's real life counterpart, and an assortment of armament including 2x M2 Browning .50 Caliber MG's, 1x 7.62 Minigun, and 1x 40mm Mk19 Auto Launcher.

Sounds good right? No, now comes to good stuff. It's capable of being walked on while stationary. It's also capable of carrying cargo, medical crates, and ammo crates as showcased in the video. Oh, but that's not even all. To my surprise, i was even able to seamlessly deploy the Darter Quad copter from the Mk V Soc. This, is the usability, the feasibility, the complete and total technological capabilities Arma 3 has, and yet, the Vanilla Naval assets lack this kind of attention. This video helps to show each and everyone in the community that this, is real, possible, no matter how much you believe that it's too buggy. In this video, you cannot deny how smooth, and seamless this tech really is, and it actually surprised me how smooth it works. This is just the Mk V Soc. Imagine what else can be created, and how useful that can actually be, for all sorts of different gameplay. Not only does it function as intended... It's also looks so damned good.

What else? Well, there's the fact that there are a few other technologies that would benefit from this. A feature presented long time ago i like to call MIM, or Movement In Movement, is a feature where you can walk, and move around in, and on a moving ship, or object. It has only thus far been tested and proven to work, just as smooth my dedicated community members long time ago. Bring that technology in engine, in a less buggy way, and you have yourself something amazing.

This Demonstration is all thanks to the awesome Arma 3 Community members, the dedicated modders who probably drink endless amounts of coffee to bring this awesome level of detail into the game for everyone to experience, for FREE. You guys, are the true MVP's, and your creations re exactly what keeps this game alive. Hats are most definitely flying everywhere for you all.

Observations in Detail - All objects stay on the ship while stationary, in movement from turns to stops and go's. All physX doing it's beautiful thing, no AttachTo, no scripts, just PhsyX

Weight effects performance! You drive too fast and turn too hard, you'll either flip your boat carrying too much Cargo, or lose all your cargo, forcing your divers if you have any to chase them down from the ocean. This will probably waste your time, which your forces on land probably depend on that medical crate at the bottom now.

All PhysX objects seamlessly work as you'd expect Physics to work. It's a beautiful thing.

what I wouldn't give for some ships like that to have a massive MP D-Day style invasion scenario.

[I give up 152]

You say that now, but you havn't played a game of Arma in a location about the same as Parcel Storm from BF4. That's exactly what Tanoa is, on a more realistic scale. Also, that's just diving stuff. Arma isn't a rush and kill game. Sometimes it's more than just dive, seek, kill.

We cannot compare BF4 with Arma.

BF4 is fast paced game with a repeated process of rush/die/respawn in much smaller environment. That's why it works.

Arma 3 is meant (when we speak about military gameplay) to be played in a tactical way, which is by itself already a slow gameplay, this in the sea it becomes even more slow and will lead to a endless boredom.

Is like, let's get a boat and patrol the ocean (which in Arma 3 it seems to have no end), maybe we find a intruder. Meanwhile what we gonna do? Fishing? Play cards?

Will not work.

Eventually, ships (carrier type) can be used as base of one faction being relatively close to shore, but that's it.

Also and looking at first presentation of Tanoa I am pretty sure that most of the assets coming with it are Civilian assets. Why? Because is there where the "gold" is.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

We cannot compare BF4 with Arma.

BF4 is fast paced game with a repeated process of rush/die/respawn in much smaller environment. That's why it works.

Arma 3 is meant (when we speak about military gameplay) to be played in a tactical way, which is by itself already a slow gameplay, this in the sea it becomes even more slow and will lead to a endless boredom.

Is like, let's get a boat and patrol the ocean (which in Arma 3 it seems to have no end), maybe we find a intruder. Meanwhile what we gonna do? Fishing? Play cards?

Will not work.

Eventually, ships (carrier type) can be used as base of one faction being relatively close to shore, but that's it.

Also and looking at first presentation of Tanoa I am pretty sure that most of the assets coming with it are Civilian assets. Why? Because is there where the "gold" is.

You waaaay over shot what i meant. I was reffering to the map, not the boats, or features. Tanoa is an Archipelago, you've seen it already. There's lots of water, and lots of land, but more water in-between, which is a vital path for transportation and other things in an Archipelago. Not sure what an Archipelago is?

Real Life cmparison

Tanoa

This means that Water, is just as important as main roads, if not, even more important. The military aspect has already been shown in the video i showed above. The ability to transport, logistics, personnel, and other things via. the water, using an advancement of Naval assets, improving on what a large some of which, the Engine already handles seamlessly.

And while you may not like sailing and staring at nothing, i see it being able to observe around the coasts, get to know the terrain by the sea, what's underwater around the coasts, best routes, and with what i just demonstrated, i can even deploy a drone and use it as recon, while out at sea, and move around after finding a safe route to take. Or, take the most dangerous route if i'm armed and go in for some damage. There's much more, i can provide a logistical role for a team, transporting medical and ammo supplies by sea, which is FAR safer than by air. You look at it in a boring way. I see possibilities.

Edited July 16, 2015 by DarkSideSixOfficial

[I give up 152]

Doubt it will have followers, things on the water become very slow, and if by any reason we have to repeat the process it will become a pain.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

Doubt it will have followers, things on the water become very slow, and if by any reason we have to repeat the process it will become a pain.

You could say the same with anything you do in Arma. Because that's the way Arma is, it's a tactical, slow paced game. end up doing something more than once, you become either tired of doing, or annoyed, one of the reasons i don't play Breaking Point anymore, i'm sick of running long distances only to get shot, and run back again. This is mainly a problem of a certain mindset, being that kills is over everything else. However, it's more of a trade off in air travel. You can transport troops and supplies via. Helo, and while it's generally fastest, it's dangerous, and costly. You can get damaged, or shot down easily, or crash. If brought the opportunity to transport via. Sea, it's safer, but slower. You could travel slowly, and quietly, watching the coasts, and be posed to fight back in the case you come under fire. You have more of a chance. It also brings the same level of gameplay as any other ground vehicle. Support, Transport, Attack, Observation, recreation. So to say it won't be backed, is like saying Sling loading wouldn't be backed, when it was actually widely supported, and implemented into the game.

A fix in said assets would essentially, provide people something more to do in the water, the vast, open, available water, that BIS has spent so much time upgrading, even since Arma 2, the water in Arma 3 looked mind blowing for us back in the day. Now the water is Tanoa looks mind blowing compared to what we have now! Lol, ehem. Point is, provide people a reason to back something, they will. Not many follow an idea, when it's proven to not go anywhere. I just proved, it's got potential to go to so many places, and do so much things.

Edited July 16, 2015 by DarkSideSixOfficial

[I give up 152]

Well, not saying that you are wrong, I am saying the chances for success of such gameplay are very low.

At this point if I was going to bet for Tanoa gameplay, I would bet in Tanoa Life.

Something like a resort with civilian boats, civilian airplanes, civilian jet ski, etc, people running around in land, water and sky like in holidays with cops patroling in police boats and helicopters.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

Well, not saying that you are wrong, I am saying the chances for success of such gameplay are very low.

At this point if I was going to bet for Tanoa gameplay, I would bet in Tanoa Life.

Something like a resort with civilian boats, civilian airplanes, civilian jet ski, etc, people running around in land, water and sky like in holidays with cops patroling in police boats and helicopters.

I see... Well these things seem to fit Military and Civilian life all the same. You could for example, have civilian logistics boats, which is actually more common, and transport things like... Just an example, because i literally just did it, you Quad-Bike. I can drive those on board and transport them over water. The update to Naval assets stands to benefit all, not just one focus, which is a great thing.

[chrisb 196]

Ok, here it is! Marine Warfare from a different perspective.

Since Operation Flashpoint, the Naval scene by Bohemia Interactive... Has been dead. To Arma 1, and 2, remained buggy. But now, in Arma 3 the Technology is present, for a complete and total refitting of actual working assets, that could provide such a whole new robust range of gameplay opportunities. It's possible. In engine.

Mods - ACE3 and ASDG Mk V Soc

ACE3 is used to pick up objects, MK V Soc is used as the basis upon which Naval assets in Arma 3 should be made after, or designed from. The Mk V Soc is the best made Naval asset available for Arma 3, which includes an attractive model of the real life Special Operations Mark 5 Multi-Platform vessel, which is capable of a variety of missions, armaments, and roles. The mod includes transport seats for a large amount of crew, or could be fitted for other purposes. It has working lights, instruments, a stunningly realistic sound to it's real life counterpart, and an assortment of armament including 2x M2 Browning .50 Caliber MG's, 1x 7.62 Minigun, and 1x 40mm Mk19 Auto Launcher.

Sounds good right? No, now comes to good stuff. It's capable of being walked on while stationary. It's also capable of carrying cargo, medical crates, and ammo crates as showcased in the video. Oh, but that's not even all. To my surprise, i was even able to seamlessly deploy the Darter Quad copter from the Mk V Soc. This, is the usability, the feasibility, the complete and total technological capabilities Arma 3 has, and yet, the Vanilla Naval assets lack this kind of attention. This video helps to show each and everyone in the community that this, is real, possible, no matter how much you believe that it's too buggy. In this video, you cannot deny how smooth, and seamless this tech really is, and it actually surprised me how smooth it works. This is just the Mk V Soc. Imagine what else can be created, and how useful that can actually be, for all sorts of different gameplay. Not only does it function as intended... It's also looks so damned good.

What else? Well, there's the fact that there are a few other technologies that would benefit from this. A feature presented long time ago i like to call MIM, or Movement In Movement, is a feature where you can walk, and move around in, and on a moving ship, or object. It has only thus far been tested and proven to work, just as smooth my dedicated community members long time ago. Bring that technology in engine, in a less buggy way, and you have yourself something amazing.

This Demonstration is all thanks to the awesome Arma 3 Community members, the dedicated modders who probably drink endless amounts of coffee to bring this awesome level of detail into the game for everyone to experience, for FREE. You guys, are the true MVP's, and your creations re exactly what keeps this game alive. Hats are most definitely flying everywhere for you all.

Observations in Detail - All objects stay on the ship while stationary, in movement from turns to stops and go's. All physX doing it's beautiful thing, no AttachTo, no scripts, just PhsyX

Weight effects performance! You drive too fast and turn too hard, you'll either flip your boat carrying too much Cargo, or lose all your cargo, forcing your divers if you have any to chase them down from the ocean. This will probably waste your time, which your forces on land probably depend on that medical crate at the bottom now.

All PhysX objects seamlessly work as you'd expect Physics to work. It's a beautiful thing.

Your right, it does add a very interesting side to the series and would be nice to see BI put some effort into it, seeing as we have all this great sea, that at the moment is wasted really. ;)

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

Your right, it does add a very interesting side to the series and would be nice to see BI put some effort into it, seeing as we have all this great sea, that at the moment is wasted really. ;)

Pretty much. It's quite interesting. Having used BIS's boats for years, they're so bland and plain. Most other assets provide a core element of gameplay that offers a certain feel. I think that Boats should be upgraded to such a certain feel. Well, provided BIS should first put time into developing big enough boats for such, as detailed as the Mk V Soc. Honestly, as i continue to use the mod, i can't help but notice how well it was made, it feels exactly like what yu'd expect a BIS boat t feel like, but it's not, if that makes sense. It's like a mod that literally fills a massive void in BIS game, it looks the part, feels the part, functions the part, but is not apart of the base game. It actually stresses me out it's not in the Vanilla game, i guess i gotta give Hatchet props when he returns, hopefully he's not sick or anything.

I'd love if BIS would give as much attention to Ships as ASDG did with his Mk V Soc. Even if their Civilian boats, military, or commercial, the detail is life like, and believable, and provides a great experience. The Interior, is walk able, the exterior is walk-able, which is really a major part that makes it shine. It's not just a Boat to be a Boat, it's sort of an extension of infantry, in a much bigger way. It's great.

[domokun 515]

I wholly agree with added attraction of naval and amphibious operations.

But isn't A3 still plagued by that bug that allows AI to see through water?

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

I wholly agree with added attraction of naval and amphibious operations.

But isn't A3 still plagued by that bug that allows AI to see through water?

Not that i know of. On the surface it doesn't know your there if your underwater until they see you. If the AI are underwater, they seem to be extra dumb, i've swam up close to them before, and it took them 3 mins to notice me, and then try to engage me. I was un-armed, they had SDAR's, and it was then a game of me swimming around them to get to some cargo at the bottom, and back up.

[I give up 152]

But isn't A3 still plagued by that bug that allows AI to see through water?

This is true.

I played this mission http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?181109-BMR-Insurgency for for quite a few time and this mission has also as option the submarine, (usefull for objectives placed in small Stratis islands) and the enemy helicopter (and jet) was detecting, targeting and firing at the sub no matter deep it was, the same when we get out of the sub, they detect and shoot at us.

Unless this a situation related with the mission itself, yes, AI in the air detect under water activity.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

This is true.

I played this mission http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?181109-BMR-Insurgency for for quite a few time and this mission has also as option the submarine, (usefull for objectives placed in small Stratis islands) and the enemy helicopter (and jet) was detecting, targeting and firing at the sub no matter deep it was, the same when we get out of the sub, they detect and shoot at us.

Unless this a situation related with the mission itself, yes, AI in the air detect under water activity.

I can agree on this. I was playing wasteland not too long ago, a certain server had an SDV, i hopped in and was underwater along to coast. Next thing i know, there's a jet that flies over, multiple times, doing missile runs on me, but can't kill me. So i figured this has something to do with it, it's the same for players too. They spot the SDV on map when they're flying around and look in the area the SDV is. I'm sure it can be fixed, but until it does, not sure there's much that can be done, in terms of AI. spotting you from the air.

[froggyluv 2130]

Alright Darkside you peaked my interest on that boat you keep posting - now I can't wait to get off work and try the damned thing

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

Hahaha, it's actually amazing. I'm still sailing the damned thing. Trying to figure out what to do next. So far i've transported the MH-9 after Landing, did take off and landing runs while it's moving at sea, transported crates, supplies, a quad bike, and not even shitting you, a Strider. XD (so given the theory of transporting wheeled vehicles at least, one could make a proper landing craft without the use of the attachto script)

I love it. It's a perfect mod for Naval Warfare and Logistics, and i can't wait to use it in Tanoa.

Changing from Marine warfare to Jungle warfare of Tanoa, i've seen some of the rain forests in Fiji, and i seriously hope BIS can pull it off nicely. I don't have doubts about the FPS, i trust they know what they're doing, and the trailer's FPS was perfect during the forest scene. I just hope there's a lot of forest to go around. The biggest challenge would be to make it as think as it is in real life.

Edited July 17, 2015 by DarkSideSixOfficial