So, AI can still see through completely obscuring grass and shoot at the player.

[eggbeast 3684]

they definitely react to light sources. try turning on your flashlight in the jungle, and you're covered in flocks of vc like moths...

i sometimes realise that the lights are on in a jeep im driving in daylight, and wonder do the AI pay more attention to me cos i had the lights on. probably.

muzzle-flash very likely same in the equation.

[Bouben 3]

Bouben, you are barging into an open door. Don't lecture me about the state of the AI, I'm one of those who scream about it constantly. Just check the latest debate on the AI discussion thread. However, that doesn't mean that the video above illustrate any of those problems, does it? And regarding to the video in subject I completely disagree with your interpretation. The player is NOT in full cover, the player FIRES SLOWLY towards the AI (which we don't even see where is he so don't say he is behind leaf. And even if he was, flash can be seen through leafs enough for anyone, human or AI to return fire).

The AI is in horrible state in a lot of fields, but none of those are shown in the above mentioned video. All you are doing is protecting someone who is diverting the discussion from real problems.

---------- Post added at 15:56 ---------- Previous post was at 15:55 ----------

Flash obscured by daylight? You are joking, right? The flash is indeed excessive in the game but as long as it's there and visible to humans, there's no reason AI shouldn't see it as well.

But AI does not care about flash in the actual code, got it? The AI is influenced only by some work-around calculations that has nothing to do with us, humans. Also, I see smoke in daylight combat in Arma, not prominent flashes at a distance. And flash visible through leaves in daylight in Arma? Not possible. Just smoke.

Anyway, the main point is that the player, at the moment of firing, was completely out of LOS for the AI, because the AI was completely obscured by leaves of the tree. Even if there was a stroboscope flashing from the player's position, the AI should not see it because it was behind an obstacle - the leaves.

The AI cannot be programmed in such a microscopic way that would allow them to see through millimetre spaces between individual leaves. It has to be programmed in a way that respects the behaviour of people playing the game in various resolutions on their monitors. The AI has to be believable, not necessarily mathematically precise.

The AI is simply bugged.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Bouben

[eggbeast 3684]

or maybe that bush has a faulty viewgeometry LOD

they work fine in unsung jungle

[calin_banc 19]

Will you stop this already? How about you you take a look at your own video? Let me spell it out for you:

You are under cover, peaking out, and then fire three shots (with significant gap between each shot). At this point we don't see where the AI is. After a pause, some bullets land closeby to you. Your weapon is not suppressed so there was a visible flash (there goes your "audio stimuli only" argument). I'd say your video is a good example of desired AI behavior.

he wasn't in full cover either, as his foot/butt could have been visible through the vehicle wheel-arch/ head vis through the windscreen etc... depends on the geometry LOD of the vehicle.

Please explain how he could SEE me or my muzzle flash behind obstacles, X-Ray?

[Bouben 3]

or maybe that bush has a faulty viewgeometry LOD

they work fine in unsung jungle

Yes, the LOD might be problematic too.

[Variable 322]

But AI does not care about flash in the actual code, got it?

Wrong. It does. Each weapon has a constant defining the visibility... muzzle attachments actually modify this. Hence us telling the player he wasn't even using a suppressed weapon, what certainly helped the AI to detect his shots.

[Bouben 3]

Please explain how he could SEE me or my muzzle flash behind obstacles, X-Ray?

Of course, it does not make any sense. There is a clear problem with the first encounter in the video.

My theory is this:

a) AI spotting is bugged (which it is, unless the grass is considered as an object itself)

b) view geometry LOD is bugged

c) AI was pointed to your location by another AI unit that was able to see you - in such case the blind fire mechanic would be bugged

[calin_banc 19]

Wrong. It does. Each weapon has a constant defining the visibility... muzzle attachments actually modify this. Hence us telling the player he wasn't even using a suppressed weapon, what certainly helped the AI to detect his shots.

Ergo, they see flashes the players cannot. Even better! :)

Of course, it does not make any sense. There is a clear problem with the first encounter in the video.

My theory is this:

a) AI spotting is bugged (which it is, unless the grass is considered as an object itself)

b) view geometry LOD is bugged

c) AI was pointed to your location by another AI unit that was able to see you - in such case the blind fire mechanic would be bugged

Yeah, something like that.

[Bouben 3]

Wrong. It does. Each weapon has a constant defining the visibility... muzzle attachments actually modify this. Hence us telling the player he wasn't even using a suppressed weapon, what certainly helped the AI to detect his shots.

Sure, there is a value, but the value does not respect the actual visual behaviour of the flash and smoke pixel-per-pixel. Therefore it is just flash = true/false and some flash value and then some simplified check if the flash could be seen. I don't believe there is an algorithm counting every pixel around the flash to calculate if it is visible or not (obstacles, direction of smoke particles, colour of background at which the flash and smoke is shown etc.) . And that is the problem. It is just approximate and therefore you cannot speculate about millimetre bullshit between individual leaves.

UPDATE: And to be fair, to the devs, I can imagine this shit is super-hard to program correctly and believably. There is so much you have to consider when making AI for open-world simulation game. No joke.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Bouben

[Varanon 892]

Never mind

[Bouben 3]

And the proof that the situation in the video is wrong is that I put myself behind a different bush and put an AI on the other side facing the same bush. Both units only 5 metres apart.

Now, if your theories were correct, the AI would see and hear me firing through the bush. The AI would calculate that I am immediately behind the same bush it is standing by. However, the AI is unable to even blind fire through the bush. Therefore, the AI is unable to see me, is unable to calculate my invisible position by hearing me clearly from close and is unable to return fire at all. So, this is the proof that AI is completely robotic and stupid and that your theories about super-sophisticated AI deducing player's position based on clues is wrong.

That means, that AI in the video is not behaving correctly. If its behaviour was correct, it would be unable to return fire because the code would tell it to be unable to do it.

My main suspicion is now pointed to the wrong viewgeometry LOD of that particular tree in the video in that particular direction.

UPDATE:

Another extreme of this behaviour is, that AI is unable to see me in situations where it clearly should. I can clearly see the AI behind the bush I described earlier but AI is completely ignoring me. Therefore I think that viewgeometry LODs are wrong or the AI tolerance threshold for small spaces between branches and leaves is wrong.

Or the AI is able to identify player only by particular parts of avatar's body and therefore have very small resolution of what it can see and what not. If the detectable part is not in its LOS, the AI would not see the player's avatar.

In other words, there is so many problems to solve with AI...

UPDATE2:

This all, however, does not explain the problems with grass. Bushes are completely different from grass in the game and are handled as objects. Grass is not an object in Arma and therefore LOS calculations are not behind the decision making with grass. Visibility in grass is even more problematic than LOS calculations with objects because it is completely approximate. The height and thickness of a grass have no effect on LOS calculations.

However, the situation with grass is much better than it was in Arma 2.

UPDATE3:

It also seems that main factor for AI deducing based on hearing is the distance at which the bullets are landing near the AI position. The AI was able to blind fire through bush only if my shots landed on the AI's side of the ground - behind the bush. If the bullets were stopped by the bush itself, the AI was unable to respond. I mean, this does not make any sense. There is so many flaws with the current AI system. It really starts to crack and break and show its flaws the more you test it.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Bouben

[kbbw123 115]

Please explain how he could SEE me or my muzzle flash behind obstacles, X-Ray?

lets reverce the question how did YOU see HIM?

all i could see where bushes (might be that I'm blind though xD)

but as far as i know and the logics say If I can seee him he can see Me

#LineofSight

[eggbeast 3684]

it's a hard game to get to grips with, you'll get there in the end!

[Bouben 3]

lets reverce the question how did YOU see HIM?

all i could see where bushes (might be that I'm blind though xD)

but as far as i know and the logics say If I can seee him he can see Me

#LineofSight

Read my post above.

---------- Post added at 16:04 ---------- Previous post was at 16:03 ----------

it's a hard game to get to grips with, you'll get there in the end!

Read my post above.

[froggyluv 2136]

Sure, there is a value, but the value does not respect the actual visual behaviour of the flash and smoke pixel-per-pixel. Therefore it is just flash = true/false and some flash value and then some simplified check if the flash could be seen. I don't believe there is an algorithm counting every pixel around the flash to calculate if it is visible or not (obstacles, direction of smoke particles, colour of background at which the flash and smoke is shown etc.) . And that is the problem. It is just approximate and therefore you cannot speculate about millimetre bullshit between individual leaves.

Too bad Varanon deleted his post because that was the truth - an algorithm counting every pixel exposed in a sandbox game of this size in a 3d world would indeed be a spectacular slideshow. Until someone makes a middleware product dedicated to realistic, optimized LOS, it's gonna be a lot of workarounds like we see now. That said I also thought Arma2 did give the AI a negative modifier when in the grass...? But the player can trample grass and clear it by moving foward, do we now include that into AI FSM :rolleyes:

[Bouben 3]

Too bad Varanon deleted his post because that was the truth - an algorithm counting every pixel exposed in a sandbox game of this size in a 3d world would indeed be a spectacular slideshow. Until someone makes a middleware product dedicated to realistic, optimized LOS, it's gonna be a lot of workarounds like we see now. That said I also thought Arma2 did give the AI a negative modifier when in the grass...? But the player can trample grass and clear it by moving foward, do we now include that into AI FSM :rolleyes:

The grass clearing is most of the time completely useless. There are situations, where it can help, but you have to have height difference between you and your target in order to make use of the clearing.

Other than that, you summarized it nicely. It is all about compromises but some implementations of those compromises in the current game are questionable.

[calin_banc 19]

lets reverce the question how did YOU see HIM?

all i could see where bushes (might be that I'm blind though xD)

but as far as i know and the logics say If I can seee him he can see Me

#LineofSight

He and a squad mate to my right and behind (not close to me!) were exchanging bullets. I saw him coming towards that vegetation and stopped. I've remember what usually happens when they are in danger mode and moved in, press the recording and start firing at him.

Sometimes my squad mates can spot targets hundreds of meters away, no way you would be able to do that without actively searching with a magnification device. Also, please compare the vanilla AI from ArmA 3, not from other games or with some sorts of mods. Totally different discussion that would be.

[froggyluv 2136]

Sometimes my squad mates can spot targets hundreds of meters away, no way you would be able to do that without actively searching with a magnification device.

Now this is one of my bigger gripes -AI calling out "Infantry 1 click" when we are in a highly vegetated valley or the like.

"Wat!?!"

[Bouben 3]

Now this is one of my bigger gripes -AI calling out "Infantry 1 click" when we are in a highly vegetated valley or the like.

"Wat!?!"

This.

[dmarkwick 261]

Now this is one of my bigger gripes -AI calling out "Infantry 1 click" when we are in a highly vegetated valley or the like.

"Wat!?!"

I confess I sometimes rely on it :)

Often my AI see enemy I cannot, and often I see enemy the AI cannot. It's never going to be perfect.

[Rydygier 1317]

Sometimes my squad mates can spot targets hundreds of meters away, no way you would be able to do that without actively searching with a magnification device.

Here is the biggest problem IMO. I "elaborated" this topic in some Alpha stage thread and can't find it anymore. AI's spotting abilities are so inhuman, not affected by factors, that hinders human-like spotting (psychological focus, vigilance, distraction, contrast (colours, movement), surprise, reflex, mistakes, similarity (spotting single man in the mob or engine sound distinction with many loud sounds or between many other similar sounds), perfect tracking many targets at once very hard or impossible)... How AI may know so I, riding civilian car, am a hostile? How whole group immediatelly and so perfectly shares same, precise knowledge? How unit may forget all this just like that leaving the group? Etc., etc... So yeah, AI in the squad is like kind of radar, early warning system or something.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Rydygier

[Bouben 3]

Here is the biggest problem IMO. I "elaborated" this topic in some Alpha stage thread and can't find it anymore. AI's spotting abilities are so inhuman, not affected by factors, that hinders human-like spotting (psychological focus, vigilance, distraction, contrast (colours, movement), surprise, reflex, mistakes, similarity (spotting single man in the mob or engine sound distinction with many loud sounds or between many other similar sounds), perfect tracking many targets at once very hard or impossible)... How AI may know so I, riding civilian car, am a hostile? How whole group immediatelly and so perfectly shares same, precise knowledge? How unit may forget all this just like that leaving the group? Etc., etc... So yeah, AI in the squad is like kind of radar, early warning system or something.

Exactly.

[hyzoran 17]

Welcome to the gaming industry 2014 where critical issues are never fixed, instead development goes into half-baked overpriced dlc, expansions that will be no better than the current game because they will share the same issues, and sequels that will be exactly the same while vaguely leading players on that things will get fixed every time the vicious forever cycle of 2014 this applies to every game, even ArmA, Total War, Mechwarrior, you name it.

[SavageCDN 231]

Welcome to the gaming industry 2014 where critical issues are never fixed, instead development goes into half-baked overpriced dlc, expansions that will be no better than the current game because they will share the same issues, and sequels that will be exactly the same while vaguely leading players on that things will get fixed every time the vicious forever cycle of 2014 this applies to every game, even ArmA, Total War, Mechwarrior, you name it.

Sorry man but if there is any game on the market today that doesn't follow this mould it's the Arma series. You could argue that has started to shift with Arma 3 but remember this series has been around since 2001.

As for the AI stuff... there are lots of bushes, vegetation that do not have proper geometries for the AI so they can 'see' right through them or at best see only the 'trunk' of the tree as an object. This is different than the grass issue.. which I suppose is easier to fix since ACE had an AI grass-block module in Arma 2.

@ASR_AI and @TPWCAS should be mandatory mods for missions with lots of AI - @bCombat for missions with fewer AI. IMHO of course.

[Bouben 3]

Sorry man but if there is any game on the market today that doesn't follow this mould it's the Arma series. You could argue that has started to shift with Arma 3 but remember this series has been around since 2001.

As for the AI stuff... there are lots of bushes, vegetation that do not have proper geometries for the AI so they can 'see' right through them or at best see only the 'trunk' of the tree as an object. This is different than the grass issue.. which I suppose is easier to fix since ACE had an AI grass-block module in Arma 2.

@ASR_AI and @TPWCAS should be mandatory mods for missions with lots of AI - @bCombat for missions with fewer AI. IMHO of course.

Mandatory should be to fix the AI issues in the vanilla by the devs themselves after all those years of bugtracking them.

EDIT:

I mean, while the devs are indeed active in the Arma development, the AI neglecting cannot be denied. They simply have priorities elsewhere while AI is in a very bad shape.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Bouben