So, AI can still see through completely obscuring grass and shoot at the player.

[pd3 25]

it's just a game man.

The only game of it's kind.

Nothing even remotely comes close, I've been playing this series since '01.

---------- Post added at 22:02 ---------- Previous post was at 22:00 ----------

eggbeast, if the game had autohealing and none of this "one-shot-kill" for the player at all, it would be nice. But at this point, you either play without grass (so you are at least on the same level) or you play in 3rd person view plus other "overkill" tactics like yours to keep up with the AI. Kind of immersion breaking.

Pretty much my sentiment, basically I think I'm going to delve into ASR_AI and see if I can't redress some issues.

[Bouben 3]

The only game of it's kind.

Nothing even remotely comes close, I've been playing this series since '01.

---------- Post added at 22:02 ---------- Previous post was at 22:00 ----------

Pretty much my sentiment, basically I think I'm going to delve into ASR_AI and see if I can't redress some issues.

Use bCombat. Much better. I dare to say the best yet.

---------- Post added at 00:17 ---------- Previous post was at 00:15 ----------

No need to over complicate things. Independents uniforms would make (hypothetically speaking) impossible to "see" a soldier beyond X meters if the environment resembles (sure, lighting/shadows, time of day, weather, all needs to be taken into account and assigned a "camouflage value") . Less camouflage, bigger distance of spotting. Between those (you will definitely be spotted and you definitely won't be spotted), try to blend other variables as good as possible and perhaps a "chance to be seen". While under fire, injured severely (especially at the head), low stamina etc., spotting distance (and ability to fire effectively) must decrease accordingly - and quite heavily I would say, and as well, the cone of vision (spotting area) to decrease and focus on an area he perceives as a threat (just like a human would do). Also, the fact that a soldier "sees" something that attracts his attention, doesn't mean he has to go in full "enemy spotted mode", but rather to check out first and THEN if the threat/clues start to mount up and look more and more like a dangerous situation, act accordingly (which is an entirely new discussion - the artificial/machine like behavior). And if ONE soldier spots the threat, it doesn't mean ALL his mates know the exact location of it.

A long talk, I'm sure there is a lot it can be done even by setting some rough standards to begin with. All it takes is a will to act.

A lot of things you described are already in the game. The camouflage value is there. And it is not sufficient and never be in simulation games with hardcore dedicated community implementing real-world tactics.

[calin_banc 19]

A lot of things you described are already in the game. The camouflage value is there. And it is not sufficient and never be in simulation games with hardcore dedicated community implementing real-world tactics.

I know, but as you saw, it requires adjustments, new intermediate states to be included and so on.

[Bouben 3]

I know, but as you saw, it requires adjustments, new intermediate states to be included and so on.

Yes, it could definitely be much better even without sophisticated camo algorithms. I agree with that, mate.

[the_demongod 31]

And AI can still see pretty clearly during night. I once shot silenced rounds from the dark only to get killed by AI in 3 seconds!

I sincerely hope you tested this after removing their NVGs… because the AI is all but blind at night without them

[pd3 25]

Pretty much what I surmised, the AI would just be incapable of managing.

Is there any way to remove grass without using the in-editor grass cutter object?

[eggbeast 3673]

well we play in vietnam, with thick bushes all around, and the enemy often dont see us until we're on top of them. what they do there though is HEAR us. so crouching and/or walking is vital to survival. even when they do see us, they often don't maintain engagements, as we blast the crap out of them.

I have also been playing arma for years, and publishing missions for years, and we often get new users complaining about the AI, etc. once they learn to work as a squad, gain tactical/numerical advantage, use all the squad and personal weapons at your disposal, and above all, move once you're taking fire, then you can dispense with this whole line of argument.

maybe instead of trying to make the game change for your tactics, try changing your tactics to work with the game.

in that vid above, as soon as i took fire, i would not be peeking out trying to out-gun the guy. i would call it to the team - "under fire 12 to 1, 1/3rd way up hill, infantry shooter, moving right" and wait til one of my buddies capped him while he was tunnel visioning my cover vehicle...

[Variable 322]

Take a look bellow: 1st contact (that's almost a perfect situation of what's going on) he shot at me, very close, although he shouldn't had seen me so he could know where to fire THAT well (the stupid suppression/tremble effect gives away if you're under fire or not);

You shot at him first, would you expect the AI not to detect that and return fire? If that's a broken reaction then let's keep it broken.

on 2nd encounter the guy goes prone, immediately sees me and accurately kills me, something VERY hard to do as a human; 3rd one, same as the 1st - too close bullets land near by, when the NPC(s) should have not seen my avatar. I wasn't the only Bluefour there, to make it clear.

First, there's a clear line of sight between that AI and you, what makes this irrelevant for this discussion. Second, nothing unreasonable about the AI reaction speed in this case.

[calin_banc 19]

well we play in vietnam, with thick bushes all around, and the enemy often dont see us until we're on top of them. what they do there though is HEAR us. so crouching and/or walking is vital to survival. even when they do see us, they often don't maintain engagements, as we blast the crap out of them.

I have also been playing arma for years, and publishing missions for years, and we often get new users complaining about the AI, etc. once they learn to work as a squad, gain tactical/numerical advantage, use all the squad and personal weapons at your disposal, and above all, move once you're taking fire, then you can dispense with this whole line of argument.

maybe instead of trying to make the game change for your tactics, try changing your tactics to work with the game.

in that vid above, as soon as i took fire, i would not be peeking out trying to out-gun the guy. i would call it to the team - "under fire 12 to 1, 1/3rd way up hill, infantry shooter, moving right" and wait til one of my buddies capped him while he was tunnel visioning my cover vehicle...

Ergo, something in the lines of: if it's broken, don't fix it, live with it. :)

You are kinda doing a straw man there. I've just showed you that he couldn't have seen me (so, impossible to accurately fire upon my position; and that is the whole point of the discussion), but he did it. If he didn't move and stay behind, it was quite possible that none of my team mates would have seen him - that if I had any. More so, that works when you are playing with other players and your team is not made up by AI. Good luck micromanaging them in a firefight! By the way, that was the combined arms scenario, which shows very well how dumb/cheater (or in a poorly scripted situation) the AI is. In the campaign the AI refused so many time my direct order to fire even with CLOS that it just broke everything.

TL;DR - doesn't "fix" the fact that the AI fire upon my position when you should have not known about it.

You shot at him first, would you expect the AI not to detect that and return fire? If that's a broken reaction then let's keep it broken.

First, there's a clear line of sight between that AI and you, what makes this irrelevant for this discussion. Second, nothing unreasonable about the AI reaction speed in this case.

I suppose you are talking about the second engagement? Correct, clear line of sight and all that, but to identify a target and accurately fire upon, it's not ok. That is not local, bur rather of an example of what's usually happening.

BTW, that was on normal, so no expert Eagle Eye stuff.

Is there any way to remove grass without using the in-editor grass cutter object?

Low detail option for the terrain.

Edited October 2, 2014 by calin_banc

[oksman 37]

Seriously, think programming sense. It will almost be impossible and so bloody draining on performance trying to get AI to respond to normal grass, which is just a filler on the ground to make it look nice. Remember that the AI doesn't "SEE" things, they process info and acquire targets and that's it. I'd rather have AI driving improved or something useful than focusing their efforts on Grass, which shouldn't be a problem if you're playing the game right.

Same with Camouflage, unnecessary and should only prove useful in Team versus Team scenarios rather than COOP or SP.

[calin_banc 19]

What does "right" mean? It's not just grass, it goes the same for bushes as shown on previous page. And why driving is more important the this BASIC stuff? Are we doing the same "oh, but this is not important, better do this thing instead"? :rolleyes:

[eggbeast 3673]

try editing your server profile to turn down the AI accuracy, you may find life a whole lot more pleasant. the default accuracy is wayyy too high.

the"knows about" system is how the game runs w.r.t enemy targeting you. if they've seen you you must either smack the crap outta them fast, or move position.

it's not the wild west where you can somehow improve to the point where you can outgun a man who already has the drop on you.

here's an example of how i freaked out an AI who was shooting at me and made him run when his clip emptied... (because their accuracy is rightly low) and then delivered some justice in close quarters... so even after he saw me he couldn't finish me off, and i got him by making him flee...

you can do pretty much anything with the game if you try...

[calin_banc 19]

LMAO, you knifed the guy behind the rock. :D And that's not ArmA 3, isn't it?

Yeah, using AI mods may work fine (which makes the vanilla AI look even worse!). Just tried before with some combo of mods I had in the Play With 6 and was much better. Didn't test as I should the spotting values though. Crap performance 'cause there were just too many installed, so I'll try and find just some AI that works good enough without other mods. Vanilla one refuses to even proper engage a target after the last few updates, but hopefully that will change. What you said before regarding squad mates to fire at the enemy is not doable "by default".

Edited October 2, 2014 by calin_banc

[kbbw123 115]

what i have expeirienced is that people want to much cod/bf game play style and want to survive huge amounts of AI's with that style....

I agree with greenfist and Egg. tactics is what you need. when me and my squad move to an AO we move tacticly resulting in 1. olmost no deaths. 2. at night it results in us being in the town and clearing the enemy's silently.

for starters you shouldn't go in with impossible gear (i.e. .50 sniper rifle with nightstalker scope, PCML and 5 satchels....) you need gear that is proper for the situation.

next you have to look for COVER not just grass when the enemy spotted you they will use the RL procedure Last Known Position! this means shoot everything (be it bush, grass, rabbit) in the position you last saw the enemy's and take a area of +/- 10 meters to both sides to make sure. laying prone in the grass or behind a bush is not gonna save you then as ther are objects that only breaks the Line of Sight and not the bullets.....(also if you are engaged by higher kaliber they will shoot you through everything! for high kaliber you have to make sure there are atleast 2 buildings or a real big Rock inbetween you. the walls of the altis buildings will not top those bullets) also when your on a Night Op make sure to kill the lights around you from a distance. once your in the light zone enemy's will see you and you wont see them when they are in the dark because lightwill blind people who are in the light zone's i.e. aslong as you are in the light cirlce with no NVG's you wont see outside it into the darkness. the same is for AI if they are inside a light circle they are easy targets as they cannot see you. but note that if it is a squad and you only shoot 1 or 2 they will find you because of the bullet impact place and the muzzle sounds. they than shal engage you (so its always best to have some more people for night ops) try not to do this with friendly AI because as soon as they are commandeble by players they have a habid of becoming true retards........

enemy's with NVG's will see you in the dark if you don't have anything to break the LOS also remember that! want a easy fight? play agains the FIA (Opfor/Independent or Blufor class) as they don't have NVG's and will only engage something when they think there is a enemy but they never know for sure.

[eggbeast 3673]

yeah i only play MP, and generally only A2, but, given that, i can still survive alone on the server for some hours by breaking contact and picking my fights. once you get a guy shooting at you, get in cover and nade his approx. position. that'll sort him out. then try to pop up and right click all over his spot, to "reveal target" the enemy. you can then order AI squad "ALL.. target that.. man at 12 o clock", "ALL engage" using the ` and 2 keys.

we don't mod the AI at all, just use the profile settings to manage their aimbotting (not spotting -that we keep high).

the AI precision can be set in the server profile. in A2 you set your game up to run with a profile and in this file you text edit it to include

	class Regular
{
	class Flags
	{
		3rdPersonView=1;
		armor=0;
		autoAim=0;
		autoGuideAT=0;
		autoSpot=0;
		cameraShake=1;
		clockIndicator=1;
		deathMessages=1;
		enemyTag=0;
		friendlyTag=1;
		hud=1;
		hudGroupInfo=1;
		hudPerm=1;
		hudWp=1;
		hudWpPerm=1;
		map=0;
		netStats=1;
		tracers=0;
		ultraAI=0;
		unlimitedSaves=1;
		vonId=1;
		weaponCursor=0;
	};
	skillFriendly=1;
	precisionFriendly=1;
[b]		precisionenemy=0.1;
	skillEnemy=0.95;
[/b]	};

[Variable 322]

I suppose you are talking about the second engagement? Correct, clear line of sight and all that, but to identify a target and accurately fire upon, it's not ok. That is not local, bur rather of an example of what's usually happening.

NO! My first comment was referring to the first engagement as I clearly wrote. You opened fire on the AI first, and that has lead to your detection and the AI to return fire, and that is the expected behavior.

And no, going prone and engaging an already known target (you) at the speed and accuracy of the AI in the second engagement in your video is more than reasonable, on normal difficulty.

Seriously, there are enough problems with the AI without people diverting BIS to non-issues.

---------- Post added at 13:38 ---------- Previous post was at 13:36 ----------

the AI precision can be set in the server profile. in A2 you set your game up to run with a profile and in this file you text edit it to include

Worth reiterating that the settings in Arma 3 are different. See here:

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?169122-AI-Configuration-feedback&p=2639166&viewfull=1#post2639166

[Greenfist 1863]

Precisionenemy and skillenemy don't work in A3, by the way.

(edit. which was already said above.)

[calin_banc 19]

NO! My first comment was referring to the first engagement as I clearly wrote. You opened fire on the AI first, and that has lead to your detection and the AI to return fire, and that is the expected behavior.

And no, going prone and engaging an already known target (you) at the speed and accuracy of the AI in the second engagement in your video is more than reasonable, on normal difficulty.

Cool, how the 1st guy knew how to fire if he hasn't saw me (or at least he shouldn't have)? That's the problem you all avoid and tend to address by "use better tactics" or other straw man arguments.

[kbbw123 115]

Cool, how the 1st guy knew how to fire if he hasn't saw me (or at least he shouldn't have)? That's the problem you all avoid and tend to address by "use better tactics" or other straw man arguments.

you should really read better ya know ^^

that AI engaged you because YOU shot HIM first with a non supressed weapon non the less..... if this was reallife and you would shoot at me like that i would probebly empty all of my clips at your locations if your than smart enough to peek around the cover of the vehicle ofcoarse i would hit you xD

also the tires of MRAPS are no good cover 6.5 rounds will go through it after a couple of bullets.

now please try to make a video with the actual problem because so far the only problem i saw was you first engaging the enemy and then dying thats not a valid reason to say the AI's are to overpowerd

[calin_banc 19]

now please try to make a video with the actual problem because so far the only problem i saw was you first engaging the enemy and then dying thats not a valid reason to say the AI's are to overpowerd

To what end? You seem to be fine on how well they close on your location by audio stimuli. I understand they shoot back, also understand their bullets may land close, but not nearly all of them, not without visual line of sight.

Anyway, I'm trying FFIS for the moment and at least the AI isn't as accurate from the first impression and can act more human like. Winning the battle, one AI mod at a time. :D

[Variable 322]

You seem to be fine on how well they close on your location by audio stimuli. I understand they shoot back, also understand their bullets may land close, but not nearly all of them, not without visual line of sight.

Will you stop this already? How about you you take a look at your own video? Let me spell it out for you:

You are under cover, peaking out, and then fire three shots (with significant gap between each shot). At this point we don't see where the AI is. After a pause, some bullets land closeby to you. Your weapon is not suppressed so there was a visible flash (there goes your "audio stimuli only" argument). I'd say your video is a good example of desired AI behavior.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Variable

[eggbeast 3673]

he wasn't in full cover either, as his foot/butt could have been visible through the vehicle wheel-arch/ head vis through the windscreen etc... depends on the geometry LOD of the vehicle.

[Bouben 3]

This is insane. People are not able to comprehend that tactics are not an answer for AI that is wrongly programmed. I really hate when people having no clue about AI's programmed functionality in the game post their random-encounter adventures as a proof of how good the AI is...

Variable, please, do some AI tests. "Random" delays in AI reactions, and "feel" of correct behaviour is not the point here. Do some test and you will see how problematic the AI is. If you are not able to comprehend the fact that AI is not influenced by visually chaotic environment and that player is, then there is nothing to discuss anymore. The first enemy in the video is the proof how badly is AI perception programmed. There is no way to see the player in such conditions. The AI was completely behind leaves of the tree yet was able to fire absolutely precisely at the player's position. Absolutely not possible IRL.

---------- Post added at 14:50 ---------- Previous post was at 14:43 ----------

Will you stop this already? How about you you take a look at your own video? Let me spell it out for you:

You are under cover, peaking out, and then fire three shots (with significant gap between each shot). At this point we don't see where the AI is. After a pause, some bullets land closeby to you. Your weapon is not suppressed so there was a visible flash (there goes your "audio stimuli only" argument). I'd say your video is a good example of desired AI behavior.

The flash was completely obscured by daylight and most importantly leaves of the tree behind which the AI was positioned at the moment of firing.

[eggbeast 3673]

yep, so turn down the precisionenemy or w/e equivalent is in arma3

in the first vid, how could they NOT have seen him? he was in the middle of an open field....

ridiculous!

[Variable 322]

This is insane. People are not able to comprehend that tactics are not an answer for AI that is wrongly programmed. I really hate when people having no clue about AI's programmed functionality in the game post their random-encounter adventures as a proof of how good the AI is...

Variable, please, do some AI tests. "Random" delays in AI reactions, and "feel" of correct behaviour is not the point here. Do some test and you will see how problematic the AI is. If you are not able to comprehend the fact that AI is not influenced by visually chaotic environment and that player is, then there is nothing to discuss anymore. The first enemy in the video is the proof how badly is AI perception programmed. There is no way to see the player in such conditions. The AI was completely behind leaves of the tree yet was able to fire absolutely precisely at the player's position. Absolutely not possible IRL.

Bouben, you are barging into an open door. Don't lecture me about the state of the AI, I'm one of those who scream about it constantly. Just check the latest debate on the AI discussion thread. However, that doesn't mean that the video above illustrate any of those problems, does it? And regarding to the video in subject I completely disagree with your interpretation. The player is NOT in full cover, the player FIRES SLOWLY towards the AI (which we don't even see where is he so don't say he is behind leaf. And even if he was, flash can be seen through leafs enough for anyone, human or AI to return fire).

The AI is in horrible state in a lot of fields, but none of those are shown in the above mentioned video. All you are doing is protecting someone who is diverting the discussion from real problems.

---------- Post added at 15:56 ---------- Previous post was at 15:55 ----------

The flash was completely obscured by daylight and most importantly leaves of the tree behind which the AI was positioned at the moment of firing.

Flash obscured by daylight? You are joking, right? The flash is indeed excessive in the game but as long as it's there and visible to humans, there's no reason AI shouldn't see it as well.