Bohemia Interactive please comment on whats hindering you to introduce Ponds to Arma3

[froggyluv 2136]

Maybe some people here missed the BIS response to this issue. The problem is not the ponds/water itself, the problem is the AI, and how they are not prepare to deal with inland water. BIS was willing to take out inland water, rather than dealing with changing the AI code. They will resist to the end before touching that. Last time real changes were made to the AI core routines was for A2OA 1.62. Something catastrophic should've happened to BIS regarding the access to the code, or their capabilities to deal with artificial inteligence.

I just don't get this. What happened to the guy at BIS who implemented this in Arma2? Before this AI would either have to go a roundabout exit or simply stop stating "Can't get there". BI, please resume advancing new AI behaviors!!

[OMAC 254]

They will resist to the end before touching that. Last time real changes were made to the AI core routines was for A2OA 1.62. Something catastrophic should've happened to BIS regarding the access to the code, or their capabilities to deal with artificial inteligence.

Sounds like AI core code was frozen when Suma stopped working on the Arma series. :( Certainly things changed for the worse once he moved on, IMO.

[Necramonium 10]

Is a bullshit excuse that AI could not handle ponds and such, because of they can go around a big building, they can go around a pond!

[seba1976 98]

Is a bullshit excuse that AI could not handle ponds and such, because of they can go around a big building, they can go around a pond!

Again, it's not a big, structural, problem, but BIS' apparent inability to make the slightest change to the AI code.

---------- Post added at 19:55 ---------- Previous post was at 19:47 ----------

Sounds like AI core code was frozen when Suma stopped working on the Arma series. :( Certainly things changed for the worse once he moved on, IMO.

I noted Suma wasn't around anymore, but never knew what happended to him, or when. Could you tell what you know about it or point me to some post regarding him leaving Bohemia? Someone posted somewhere, about a year ago, about BIS' losing access to the code. Though that seems a little extreme, it got stucked in my head for some reason, but I wasn't never able to recover the source of that comment. Facts do seem to point that something is not right in that area though.

[[evo] dan 79]

Again, it's not a big, structural, problem, but BIS' apparent inability to make the slightest change to the AI code.

---------- Post added at 19:55 ---------- Previous post was at 19:47 ----------

I noted Suma wasn't around anymore, but never knew what happended to him, or when. Could you tell what you know about it or point me to some post regarding him leaving Bohemia? Someone posted somewhere, about a year ago, about BIS' losing access to the code. Though that seems a little extreme, it got stucked in my head for some reason, but I wasn't never able to recover the source of that comment. Facts do seem to point that something is not right in that area though.

Suma didn't leave BIS, he moved to DayZ.

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

This makes no sense. One of the DEV's stated that while AI is an issue of the part, it's more of a time/manpower/priority constraint. Not only that, Arma 2 had ponds. That being said, AI can already opporate in environments with such implementations. For example, I had placed 50+ AI on the opposite side of the Pobeda Dam in Chernarus. The AI's reaction when my team engaged then was two things. Some went to the edge of the pond on the offensive. Others stayed back and fired, and a handful of others went around the pond. This is correct behavior. They could also all simply avoid ponds but idk if that could be a posative impact on gameplay. Might I egress. The main issue keeping other water sources at bay, exist in the timeframe. As for someone who said a submarine In a pond, what I meant was having Naval assets with the addition of waterborne inpovements. Meaning you can have patrol boats and light cruisers for the ocean, but with a package that includes water improvements. But preferably, just the water improvements would be perfect. Assets, welcomed.

[numberfour 1]

AI only avoiding the pond is not the solution as Arma3 has introduced diving. I mean what about the divers? Should they also avoid the ponds? What happens if you put a diver in one? The "pond-avoiding" and diving quite contradict each other and I bet that might make ponds difficult to implement for AI.

In Arma2 AI never went swimming into a pond, because it couldn't effectively fight while in the water (and defend itself). With Arma3 the situation is different.

Edited November 30, 2014 by NumberFour

[OMAC 254]

Dan;2829667']Suma didn't leave BIS' date=' he moved to DayZ.[/quote']

He also did some work on Take On Mars.

The great Arma 2 days of seeing his frequent posts on dev-heaven when fixing AI behavior are long gone. :(

--------

I do remember AI having occasional severe difficulty with ponds and lakes in A2CO. Sometimes a whole convoy would drive into a reservoir (such as one behind Topolka Dam north of Elektrozavodsk on Chernarus), flounder, and die. Perhaps BI didn't have time to figure out AI pond pathfinding, and just removed all ponds/rivers to avoid the problem.

Edited November 30, 2014 by OMAC

[zorrobyte 30]

as far as furniture, shouldn't it be possible to dynamically spawn it only when the player is near (at least in SP) to minimize performance hit?

All one needs to do is use enablesimulation false to objects past X as I do in my caching module. Speaking of, I need to work on object caching.

---------- Post added at 03:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:47 AM ----------

Maybe some people here missed the BIS response to this issue. The problem is not the ponds/water itself, the problem is the AI, and how they are not prepare to deal with inland water. BIS was willing to take out inland water, rather than dealing with changing the AI code. They will resist to the end before touching that. Last time real changes were made to the AI core routines was for A2OA 1.62. Something catastrophic should've happened to BIS regarding the access to the code, or their capabilities to deal with artificial inteligence.

FSM driven AI are very difficult to program for. The best long term solution would be to switch over to behavior trees but such would be very expensive and require major changes in the core engine.

[andersson 285]

BI say that the ponds were problematic already in A2 and got worse in A3 due to "AI, Dx11, physx, diving, animations, path finding".

Dx11, physx, diving are added features, AI, animations and path finding are obviously changed.

I also remember in A2 how I could find AI groups walking around without weapons as they had crossed a river and lost their weapons (Podagorsk, Panthera). That also happened now and then on Chernarus, some soldiers were without weapons as they had sometime somewhere ended up in a pond.

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?183119-Bohemia-Interactive-please-comment-on-whats-hindering-you-to-introduce-Ponds-to-Arma3&p=2790634&viewfull=1#post2790634

Edited November 30, 2014 by andersson

[Alwarren 2767]

I also remember in A2 how I could find AI groups walking around without weapons as they had crossed a river and lost their weapons (Podagorsk, Panthera). That also happened now and then on Chernarus, some soldiers were without weapons as they had sometime somewhere ended up in a pond.

Which was because in Arma 2 you would eventually loose all your gear when in the water. The obvious solution to this would have been to make AI avoid water.

And as usual, as seen before, rather than fixing it, they remove it. But I suppose there's now going to be someone that will try to sell this as "a good thing".

Sigh...

[andersson 285]

Yep, have the AI avoid water should be the first step. Then they "only" have to focus on physX vehicles and player diving. Sadly I guess that is not too high up on their list as they do have many important things to fix.

[numberfour 1]

I hope that they solve the pond issue along with the new terrain in the upcoming DLC. Being a fan since the OFP demo my all-time favorite maps are Everon and Chernarus, but but I really do miss the ponds as an important part of the scenery in the Arma 3 port of Cherno.

Edited November 30, 2014 by NumberFour

[malcom86 33]

I hope the fact they can't access AI core is not true at all...not sure if I got it, but it would be really sad if they can't even work on something they created !! They should work mostly on Arma 3 these days to improve it, as it's their last masterpiece^^

[lightspeed_aust 681]

Here's the thing, if BIS said we will have ponds/ lakes in A3 but be advised AI can't handle them, then as a mission maker I would just make sure the AI didn't have to deal with the water. We still get the immersion though.

That would have been my approach.

[CockSalad 10]

Yes please, add ponds before fixing engine bottlenecks and fps issues.

It is such a problem that I can't go to a 50x50 space and have water in the pond!! Where are the womens?? HELP

[froggyluv 2136]

Answer is obvious. We gotta buy back Suma! But how???

[NeMeSiS 11]

Answer is obvious. We gotta buy back Suma! But how???

Buy ArmA3 a million times because it is ArmA3, not because of a mod. :p

[Llano 11]

Yes please, add ponds before fixing engine bottlenecks and fps issues.

It is such a problem that I can't go to a 50x50 space and have water in the pond!! Where are the womens?? HELP

Exactly my thought.

[andersson 285]

Answer is obvious. We gotta buy back Suma! But how???

It's all about the hair, not the person. The staff can if they want.

[seba1976 98]

Buy ArmA3 a million times because it is ArmA3, not because of a mod. :p

AFAIK, DayZ SA is not doing well nowadays. Mod makers ported the whole thing to the A3 engine and f*up BIS' best plans. So we lost Suma for nothing :(.

[nomisum 129]

Everytime I see this thread still alive and bumping, I cheer.

[malcom86 33]

It's all about the hair, not the person. The staff can if they want.

We have a pretty long time to wait, than ? I hope not...

[OMAC 254]

I always thought that Suma was the brains of the operation, a nearly god-like force of acuity and skill. I remember him writing years ago in a forum with great interest about animating butterflies and other ambient life in A2CO. Some people were critical of him that he would be involved with such "trivial" things when serious AI problems existed. But he wrote back that such things are among those that make A2CO special, and that he balanced such "interesting" work with enhancement of AI and other aspects of the guts of the game. I guess the Arma series no longer held his interest sufficiently, so he cut his hair and moved on. ;) That's when dark storm clouds appeared on the horizon of Arma 3. The clouds drew closer when Ivan Buchta was skipped as A3 lead.

I hope Suma would at least come back temporarily to fix the slo-mo rabbits in addition to the pond problem. And frown at the toiling 20-something minions concentrating on Karts, Time Trials, and impossible Challenges until female units, AI drivers that can back up tanks normally, terrain furniture, official SP scenarios, and the

are implemented. :rolleyes:

[CaptainAzimuth 714]

AI only avoiding the pond is not the solution as Arma3 has introduced diving. I mean what about the divers? Should they also avoid the ponds? What happens if you put a diver in one? The "pond-avoiding" and diving quite contradict each other and I bet that might make ponds difficult to implement for AI.

In Arma2 AI never went swimming into a pond, because it couldn't effectively fight while in the water (and defend itself). With Arma3 the situation is different.

Why have them avoid ponds? Obvious reasons. Your not typically going to send a team of AI to dive in a pond for much reasons. Players on the other hand, yes. As I understand AI is a core asset to the game, BIS isn't really selling the game for the AI to play. It's what the players experience, which will decide the outcome. So having players have the ability to use ponds in whichever way, be it just visual immersion (which is the main theme), or an actual asset to survival, or some other far fetched reason, it should be in game. It's an infantry focused game without a key land feature. End game, it doesn't matter of AI avoid the pond. Players as AI can't shoot while swimming in any kind of water unless they have the appropriate weaponry, and so make them avoid the pond. Besides, a pond isn't a proper diving asset unless it's got a mission made for it, and I guess it depends on the size of the pond... A lake however can be handlers with sea water. But never the less, AI are poor in regular sea water when they have guns anyway. I can't remember the last time an AI fired back at me when I was surrounded with enemy divers. I killed them all and they just took it.

---------- Post added at 17:45 ---------- Previous post was at 17:40 ----------

Here's the thing, if BIS said we will have ponds/ lakes in A3 but be advised AI can't handle them, then as a mission maker I would just make sure the AI didn't have to deal with the water. We still get the immersion though.

That would have been my approach.

Exactly this. Last I recall, they didn't have to deal with it in Arma 2 Either. Not only that, but when they did, they either crossed or avoided it, depending on threat level. Plus, the have news papers explaining missing furniture. It wouldn't hurt to have a make believe story behind AI purposefully avoiding a pond.