Weapon Inertia & Sway Feedback (dev branch)

[Defunkt 431]

Really? Everyone can pretty much run, dogs can too. But to shoot and hit what you are aiming at takes practise. to shoot well takes even more practise and some skill. what bis has here is much better than the simple line up mouse and then shoot. it needs refining i give you that and i hope to see more of that coming via marksman dlc

This. Personally I wan't particularly looking for a game where running was a challenge but I'd quite like a game that provides challenging shooting mechanics.

[Variable 322]

This. Personally I wan't particularly looking for a game where running was a challenge but I'd quite like a game that provides challenging shooting mechanics.

"shooting mechanic". They just made it harder, in a lot of cases harder than it is in real life. That jumping up and down after you are out of breath? What is that? That's like a caricature of weapon handling. It's ridiculous and needs to change. It's only a matter of tweaking to avoid this unnecessary and exaggerated sway that occur in some cases.

[Kerc Kasha 102]

Aiming with a mouse is 1000000000 times easier than aiming an actual weapon which is why things need to be exaggerated. if it's SUPER REALISTIC and behaves as you'd expect it would be as it was before the inerita/sway was added aka zero effort shooting

[Variable 322]

if it's SUPER REALISTIC and behaves as you'd expect

Don't put words into my mouth. I don't expect it to be SUPER REALISTIC. I just don't want it to be SUPER UNREALISTIC as it is now.

[blackpixxel 53]

I would like to have a reduced sway-pattern size, but a bit more randomnes/shakyness. So you don't have this huge 8-movement of the weapon which look way to artificial.

[-Coulum- 35]

They just made it harder, in a lot of cases harder than it is in real life.

And this is where I disagree. It isn't unrealistically hard to shoot accurately. The evidence I base that on is the feats I can do in arma vs. what is required and achieved by the basic footsoldier. Right now it is possible to shoot acurrately and consistently at 400m. While standing! That is damn good. Prone with some magnification and shooting up to a kilometre is childsplay. Even with wind-deflection mods it pretty easy, after you calibrate. I don't see that as "too hard". If you haven't watched it already, this video demonstrates that the sway isn't "to hard" to qualify as a marksman.

And that is from 1.24, which had the most sway arma has ever had.

So I have trouble understanding how you believe this is harder than reality?

That jumping up and down after you are out of breath? What is that? That's like a caricature of weapon handling. It's ridiculous and needs to change.

I agree that sway when in and around 50%+ fatigued is overdone. But base sway isn't all that bad really to my eyes.

a revised and more accurate depiction of holding a weapon in a non supported or supported firing postion under various fatigue states, whilst keeping in mind the character is supposed to be a fit, healthy, well trained infantier

So? What's your suggestions. How do you go about making shooting require some degree of focus and player input, yet stay away from sway systems?

True Infantry skill lays in your command of movement over the ground when closing with the enemy, any fool can shoot.

I agree that infantry is all about closing with the enemy. That is my favourite part about playing arma 3. We actually have to find ways to get close and destroy the enemy.

If we could all shoot with laser line precision and speed, there would be very little point in doing that. Thats how arma 2 was. Sit on the hill and plink from 600 metres out. Move a bit closer and repeat. Run into town with your Sniper rifle and clear the few survivors that were hiding. 5 minutes done. Some firefight that was. In arma 3 we actually have to gain fire superiority, fix flank finish. All that good stuff. And alot of that comes from the fact the sway makes it much more difficult to just pop a guy from 600m, the second he exposes himself.

Any fool can shoot. I doubt just any fool can shoot well. I think the sway goes along way towards representing that.

Edited January 28, 2015 by -Coulum-

[mjolnir66 48]

"shooting mechanic". They just made it harder, in a lot of cases harder than it is in real life. That jumping up and down after you are out of breath? What is that? That's like a caricature of weapon handling. It's ridiculous and needs to change. It's only a matter of tweaking to avoid this unnecessary and exaggerated sway that occur in some cases.

Again, having done ranges where I was running before shooting, I can tell you that it isn't. Even at 100m shooting while fatigued is really hard. Standing, unfatigued, my IRL sway is roughly what the 50% fatigued is in game. And then holding my breath is drops it to the unfatigued levels.

[dvargar 0]

Shooting accurately when unfatigued is indeed far too easy. When holding your breath the sway magically goes away almost completely.

[Brisse 78]

Yes, you are right, it is very easy. I think a lot of complaints come from people who refuse to adapt to the new gameplay, and thus fail to manage their fatigue properly, because in earlier versions and earlier games, you could run infinitely without penalty.

Unlearn, and then relearn. Adapt.

And then there is Marksman DLC which will introduce weapon stabilization (aka resting). That will be great complement to current mechanics.

[bigpickle 0]

I think I've spotted your issue, you're trying to play the game with time acceleration set to 4x.

Try setting it back to 1x and I think you'll find it a lot easier to hit things.

You're welcome.

At x4 it shows just how stupid the movement is, but past that its meant to back taken how it looks.

Why didn't the people that you're talking about want to play Arma 3 for the year that it was out when it had Arma 2's weapon sway mechanics?

You'd have to ask them, but I'm guessing because it was terribly buggy

The devblog on weapon inertia admitted that 1:1 fidelity wasn't their goal...

Maybe they know people will probably settle for second best, I'd settle for second best as what we have now isnt even remotely realistic

I have literally just come off a range. I wish my point of aim was anything like that steady.

Keep practicing and your skills will grow in time.

For Bigpickle + others against sway.

Look! When I do absolutely nothing to control my weapon it doesn't stay on target! When I speed it up and play funky music it looks ridiculous!

Not to be rude, but that is how I interpreted you video.

Your shoulder and hands control the weapon your body supports, its called a firing postion, and you can take my video any way you like its ridiculous because.... it is.

Look at this poor fella below, he's suffering from a case of extreme figure of 8's

[mjolnir66 48]

Keep practicing and your skills will grow in time.

I'm sure my 4 years of infantry soldiering might have told me this. Or you know, you can stop being such a smarmy "know it all" and understand that maybe some people have both a better grasp on this situation and more practical experience in the subject.

Your shoulder and hands control the weapon your body supports, its called a firing postion, and you can take my video any way you like its ridiculous because.... it is.

Yes they do, but you still sway, even in prone you still get sway. Mostly vertical, but you still get it.

Look at this poor fella below, he's suffering from a case of extreme figure of 8's

And this is extremely dishonest. If you took that video you posted earlier and took a version from third person at the same angle and range as this video, you'd see no movement. This i because a magnified optic magnifies the apparent sway by the same amount as the magnification. I've done it too, when I'm firing I feel like I'm recoiling loads, but then I watch a video back and it looks like I'm not even moving. This is ignoring the fact that you can actually see your SF guy sway slightly if you look close enough.

Even in first person, you can't really see much in the way of sway, but I promise you, its there:

(this is me last June skip to about 3.30 if you want to see firing from an unsupported position).

[Defunkt 431]

Look at this poor fella below, he's suffering from a case of extreme figure of 8's

As if you could expect to see any sway from that distance and angle.

But if you do want to see a comparable exercise conducted in ArmA from the first person perspective just look at the video -Coulum- posted (

). This guy has no issue executing it perfectly in-game.

[-Coulum- 35]

Your shoulder and hands control the weapon your body supports, its called a firing postion, and you can take my video any way you like its ridiculous because.... it is.

Haha! Way to ignore any and every argument made against. And post a video that doesn't really support anything. Whatever.

This i because a magnified optic magnifies the apparent sway by the same amount as the magnification. I've done it too, when I'm firing I feel like I'm recoiling loads, but then I watch a video back and it looks like I'm not even moving.

This. However the way the sights bob around on the screen rather than the entire view bobbing and the sights staying centred (closer to what one experiences in reality), makes the sway appear even more drastic and crazy. This is something I hoped is changed to be more like a traditional shooter.

If you took that video you posted earlier and took a version from third person at the same angle and range as this video, you'd see no movement.

The only time you can really see the sway from third person in arma, is when you are like 50%-60% fatigued. And I think at that point it is a bit excessive, especially the speed at which you sway. But for unfatigued to slightly fatigued, yes, it is barely noticeable in third person and that's without even using hold breath or trying to keep the sights stable. System and magnitude are not unreasonable.

[roshnak 41]

System and magnitude are not unreasonable.

I do kinda think the sway pattern goes on for too long, though, if that makes sense. It makes it a bit harder to learn to predict or counter the sway than I think is really necessary.

[Defunkt 431]

I used to think the sway pattern was a bit inorganic but somebody else made a really good point earlier in this thread, it ought not be judged as an outcome in its own right, your trying to manage it (and the pattern that results) is the outcome.

[dnk 13]

Just to help guys struggling with sway: reduce your mouse DPI settings. I have a mouse with a button set to "DPI adjust". I switch it to "slow mode" when I need to make those precise, long distance shots. It helps a lot, as does not freelooking while aiming, since that freelook removes a lot of the inertia that full body movements have, making it more finicky.

[alsanjuro 20]

Just to help guys struggling with sway: reduce your mouse DPI settings. I have a mouse with a button set to "DPI adjust". I switch it to "slow mode" when I need to make those precise, long distance shots. It helps a lot, as does not freelooking while aiming, since that freelook removes a lot of the inertia that full body movements have, making it more finicky.

Or you people that don't like the sway the way it is you can use this mod http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=26266

Which I have been using and works fine it still has a bit of sway and your scopes don't fly off this screen. This is just a suggestion instead of trying to mess around with your mouse settings. I am sure that some one will make a smart arse remark about using a mod to fix your sway.

Since its been since august nothing has been done and there are people that want it fixed. Without this mod I would have not played arma 3.

[bigpickle 0]

I'm sure my 4 years of infantry soldiering might have told me this. Or you know, you can stop being such a smarmy "know it all" and understand that maybe some people have both a better grasp on this situation and more practical experience in the subject.

I served for 5 years, and became fluent with probably most of the same weapon systems your are fluent with, so I think I probably you can respect the fact that I have experience too and my opinions are just as valid as other peoples regardless of whether they are different, but some in this thread (not yourself mind) have being stubbornly arrogant when others are saying their opinions, so I gave some back, sorry that involved you but your last post kinda made you an easy target, just like no doubt this post will make me an easy target too.

When I say this, and it isnt meant to be laying down and challenge or anything stupid like that, next time your on the range or in the field think about the sway pattern in arma and see if it looks similar or not.

I found it looks nothing like it, so I'm saying it is nothing like it, with that in mind it doesnt matter how much "proof" etc people try to give me about how I'm wrong it will not change my mind.

Thats not me being arrogant its just me not concerning myself with others opinions when I comes to this, least of all do I expect anyone to care about mine, I'm just hear to say what I feel so BIS might read it not to force anyone else to change their minds which is how I felt some were behaving, hypocrytical of me? maybe so.

Edited January 31, 2015 by Bigpickle

[bad benson 1733]

I do kinda think the sway pattern goes on for too long, though, if that makes sense. It makes it a bit harder to learn to predict or counter the sway than I think is really necessary.

do you mean the pattern itself and how quickly it repeats? or just how long the sway lasts. when i played with the values some time ago i noticed that using the fatigue only for short term effects made everything feel much more believable. that resulted from making recovery much much faster. the problem is that the way fatigue and sway are implemented, in my opinion at least, you can only simulate short term effects properly. once you move longer it totally fails in my eyes. it would be perfect, if it was possible to just slow people down based on their load out like in RPGs. the whole idea of simulating longterm fatigue is very problematic to me at least when looking at how it'S done here.

[MavericK96 0]

I think I said this before (or in a different thread), but they really need to lock the view to the center of the scope in the "3D scope" views. As a TrackIR user, it makes me want to look up to the left when the scope sways to the upper left of the screen, which then screws up my view/aim even more. It is far better with 2D scopes (and ironsights for that matter), where the reticule stays centered and your overall view just sways. I don't have a major problem with weapon sway/inertia as-is, but it just exacerbates this issue.

PLEASE considers this, devs.

[-Coulum- 35]

I do kinda think the sway pattern goes on for too long, though, if that makes sense. It makes it a bit harder to learn to predict or counter the sway than I think is really necessary.

I wouldn't be opposed to that. Sometimes you get lucky and the sway just happens to pass over your target. Other times you don't and and it feels the crosshair will never go the direction you thought or want it to. Making the pattern more predictable might make it easier to "get a feel" for it, assuming you aren't fatigued, wounded etc.

Its so complex as it is because there are two parts to the sway. The up and down component which repeats approx. every 4 seconds, and side to side component which repeats approx. every 8 seconds. Combined, it is very hard to notice any pattern, let alone memorize it. Add in fatigue, wounds, and inertia alter the two components individually... and there really is no precisely repetitive pattern at all, though you can generally get a feel for each swing the weapon makes.

Its is why its really important to make sure you're in a calm shooting position and making use of hold breath, which virtually eliminates up and down sway. It is easy to predict the sway when it is only moving side to side. And when bipods come in, I am pretty sure they will mostly eliminate all side to side motion. So you will be left with pretty much no sway when using the bipod and hold breath.

When I say this, and it isnt meant to be laying down and challenge or anything stupid like that, next time your on the range or in the field think about the sway pattern in arma and see if it looks similar or not.

I found it looks nothing like it, so I'm saying it is nothing like it, with that in mind it doesnt matter how much "proof" etc people try to give me about how I'm wrong it will not change my mind.

Thats not me being arrogant its just me not concerning myself with others opinions when I comes to this, least of all do I expect anyone to care about mine, I'm just hear to say what I feel so BIS might read it not to force anyone else to change their minds which is how I felt some were behaving, hypocrytical of me? maybe so.

Well I just hope you realize I was actually agreeing with you about "it looks nothing like it", and only trying to point out why that is acceptable in the grand scheme of things. If you don't "care to concern yourself with other's" opinions, well, I guess you were never looking to discuss anything in the first place, and I am wasting my time. Fair enough, to each his own. btw, SOS pure is sweet, best way to improve sound and get playable fps. Thanks for all your work on that!

I think I said this before (or in a different thread), but they really need to lock the view to the center of the scope in the "3D scope" views. As a TrackIR user, it makes me want to look up to the left when the scope sways to the upper left of the screen, which then screws up my view/aim even more. It is far better with 2D scopes (and ironsights for that matter), where the reticule stays centered and your overall view just sways. I don't have a major problem with weapon sway/inertia as-is, but it just exacerbates this issue.

PLEASE considers this, devs.

YES! THIS!

[EricJ 763]

Yes they do, but you still sway, even in prone you still get sway. Mostly vertical, but you still get it.

Yeah I can see the barrel move but overall it's not as bad as the current values though, as I was doing Insurgency and the weapon would move way too much even on prone. Needless to say resting your weapon via Grip Pod or on your ruck doesn't hardly move it at all. And numerous times resting your weapon on a sandbag when zeroing doesn't move it at all. Which is probably why I go with TMR since it works, but overall if you lay in the prone unsupported (which some shooting of course is) there is almost zero lateral movement with the weapon, which I don't understand why BIS does this, as with the TRG-21/EGLM I was firing prone somewhat and the weapon was still moving around way too much. So whoever designed this system simply hasn't fired a rifle long enough either in combat or on a safe range. It just makes non-modded guns almost useless.

[Jona33 51]

Yeah I can see the barrel move but overall it's not as bad as the current values though, as I was doing Insurgency and the weapon would move way too much even on prone. Needless to say resting your weapon via Grip Pod or on your ruck doesn't hardly move it at all. And numerous times resting your weapon on a sandbag when zeroing doesn't move it at all. Which is probably why I go with TMR since it works, but overall if you lay in the prone unsupported (which some shooting of course is) there is almost zero lateral movement with the weapon, which I don't understand why BIS does this, as with the TRG-21/EGLM I was firing prone somewhat and the weapon was still moving around way too much. So whoever designed this system simply hasn't fired a rifle long enough either in combat or on a safe range. It just makes non-modded guns almost useless.

Seems more likely the mechanic isn't sophisticated enough to handle different sway patterns yet. I'm quite a big supporter of the mechanic but I'll take your word in regards to the sway pattern. I just hope the mechanic stays fairly punishing, perhaps slightly more so than real life as that just improves the gameplay for me.

[EricJ 763]

I don't think so either, or it's just too much. I've been messing with my guns and there's some sway but not much to call it unusable either. It moves around for a second and then stays steady. Vanilla guns just need it reduced and maybe that'll help, a lot in my opinion though.

[roshnak 41]

When I say this, and it isnt meant to be laying down and challenge or anything stupid like that, next time your on the range or in the field think about the sway pattern in arma and see if it looks similar or not.

I found it looks nothing like it, so I'm saying it is nothing like it, with that in mind it doesnt matter how much "proof" etc people try to give me about how I'm wrong it will not change my mind.

I would guess that the odds that any two people experience weapon sway the same (in real life) are very small.

do you mean the pattern itself and how quickly it repeats? or just how long the sway lasts.

The first one, I think. This:

Its so complex as it is because there are two parts to the sway. The up and down component which repeats approx. every 4 seconds, and side to side component which repeats approx. every 8 seconds. Combined, it is very hard to notice any pattern, let alone memorize it. Add in fatigue, wounds, and inertia alter the two components individually... and there really is no precisely repetitive pattern at all, though you can generally get a feel for each swing the weapon makes.

Edited February 1, 2015 by roshnak