Israel General

[mistyronin 1181]

This thread is to talk about the recent events in Israel and all the facts involved. I ask you all to be polite.

( Al Jazeera ) Rockets from Gaza follow Israeli air strikes

Israeli officials say the army will carry out more air raids on the Gaza Strip overnight and call up 1,500 military reservists, as the country moves closer to its third major offensive in the Palestinian territory in six years.

The security cabinet met on Monday after nine people were killed overnight in Gaza, governed by the Palestinian faction Hamas, and nearly 40 rockets and mortars were fired into southern Israel.

Late on Monday, there was another barrage of at least 20 rockets from Gaza into Israel.

[Tonci87 163]

Hamas members were called by phone in the middle of he night and told to leave the house immediatelly. Shortly after that missiles destroyed their homes. That is also one form of terrorism.

[Darfiss 10]

first of all, a few things,

-i really took time to think about my reply to this topic

-i'm from germany and no freakin nazi

-this complete conflict needs to be slpit in several parts:

-the historical aspect/founding of israel etc.

-ethic's of killing people/the reasons, is it neccesary and stuff

-the future/solving the problem

-the historical part

!!! if i'm somehow wrong or you know it better feel free to correct me, but that are the informations ive got, it always depends on the source where you get your information, maybe mine could be wrong, or yours.

just dont take my saying for strict or so...

some of you may know, or dont, that israel was founded, i guess it was between the first and second world war. (dont remember exactly, too lazy to google ^^')

jewish people bought that land form the BRITISH goverment, cuz they dont wanted to maintain this colony any further, and the jewish people wanted their ''land'' back, from wich they were banished.

so the jewish people got their land pretty cheap, and with hitler in germany starting to rise and threaten the jewish people, this was a good place to finally find a home.

so there where people (the palistinian), who lived in this place under british rules, they had their land taken away from the british to the jewish people.

why?

the jewish people payed the british for the land, wich the british took from the palastinian. i'd be fcked up too if this would happen to me ...

during that time an extremist group formed, to get that land back from the jewish, wich where now in administration.

(i duno the name but i think it was the predesecor of the hamas)

a little civil war was going, wich the jewish won, if i remember correctly.

so anyway!

the problem was the british robbed the land from palestinian, gave it to the jewish who made israel outa that.

as the state of israel was officialy announced, the israeli (the majority of israeli that time was a mix of jewish and arabic/palastinian people) offered all palestinian people to join israel, to live together in peace and all that fancy things with pink unicorns.

a majority of the palestinian, and of vourse the hamas said, screw you guys.

but why?

as far as i understoud it, the palastinian where afraid, that the jewish people are going to establish a pure jewish/zionistic upper class, that would rule the poor palestinian, just like the british did it before.

and what come on top of it, is that, in the eyes of the palestinian people, the jewish stole their land.

in my opinion, i understand the palestinian people, why they wanted to seperate and create a state of their own.

but i think israel should refresh its offer to the palestinian, to join them peacfully.

not of course, now is ther too much tension between them, but later if they can manage to get peacetalkings going.

-reasons to kill people?!

after those 3 people found dead, israel starts air raids and bombardments on palestinian settelments, thats the same shit, the nazis did, if some resistance people killed a nazi officer.

blood for blood, is the most irrational answer to that.

and whats another disturbing thing is, i personly think, not every palestinian is a hamas member, or want to kill israelis.

keep in mind, in israel also live people with a palestinian/arabic background!

should they be killed to?!

its one thing to kill a person if he is directly threatening you, but to wipe out whole villiges, because there could be some radicals, is like shoot with cannons on birds.

what brings me to the next part of this post:

-the future

with their big bombardments, killing innocent people who have nothing to with this shit, they generate those hate against them.

yes its sad that those 3 students died.

yes those people who are responsible for this should face an apropriate punishment.

no its not a good idea to bomb settlments because there could be some bad guys!

as i see it for now, there will be no peace in the near future, except israel is taking all of palestinia.

but what i dont get, as far as i understand it, the UN recognised palestinia as a suvereign country ( or may i be wrong? =/), so why doesent the international community does something?

i mean they trying to fck up russia for that stuff in the ucraine ( i dont wanna get into this here), but russia is the bad guy doing bad things, israel is one of the good guys doing bad things?! dafuq people!!!

let me resume this quick.

stop it, have diner together, make babys be happy, and make arma not war!

[spooky lynx 73]

Look at the 1948 year map of splitting Palestine into Jewish and Arabic parts to realize why Arabs had become feeling screwed up.

[Variable 322]

Look at the 1948 year map of splitting Palestine into Jewish and Arabic parts to realize why Arabs had become feeling screwed up.

There was no "Israel" nor "Palestine" before 48. Get your facts straight before posting.

[spooky lynx 73]

There was no "Israel" nor "Palestine" before 48. Get your facts straight before posting.

Oh really?

[Kydoimos 916]

I think Variable is referring to the modern states of Israel (1948) and Palestine (1988 - I think?). Of course, the geographic region of Palestine goes right back to antiquity.

---------- Post added at 15:43 ---------- Previous post was at 15:42 ----------

:) Sorry - just thought I'd chip in. I have no idea what this thread's about.

[spooky lynx 73]

Sure I didn't say about modern day Palestinian autonomy but region that had to be divided on two parts in 1948.

[Variable 322]

You should already know to not just throw links with full articles in order to prove a point.

Let me enlighten you on the facts that your article there does not contradict.

There were no state entities called Palestine or Israel before 48. Israel was announced and established in that year after the UN offered both sides to split the land in two. The Jews agreed, the Arabs refused and declared a war in which they lost. They have lost lands to the Jews and Israel was established on the areas that were offered to it, plus the ones lost by the Arabs. More territory was captured by Israel in 67.

[Variable 322]

You can call the whole territory Palestine as much as you can call it Israel.

[cozza 24]

might sound insensative. I really gave up caring.

Something will instangate Israel bombing Gaza.

Israel will bomb Gaza.

Gaza will fire rockets back.

Both sides stop.

Rest of the world forgets what happens.

refer to point 1 in 3 years

[froggyluv 2136]

Israel wasn't really a good idea to place in a sea of Arabs. A split off of Germany would have been a better bet because all conflict could be resolved via good beer and really silly dance. Arabs have been fighting with themselves since forever, placing an arbitrary new nation with the ruling class coming from Europe rather then the local and genetically cousined Sephardic Jews is a proven recipe for disaster.

[maturin 12]

There was no "Israel" nor "Palestine" before 48. Get your facts straight before posting.

Palestine is a general historical term and completely valid for describing the region before 1948. The Palestinians are so-named because they are the native population of the geographic (not political) region known as Palestine. Or the Levant, or whatever.

Israel wasn't really a good idea to place in a sea of Arabs. A split off of Germany would have been a better bet because all conflict could be resolved via good beer and really silly dance. Arabs have been fighting with themselves since forever, placing an arbitrary new nation with the ruling class coming from Europe rather then the local and genetically cousined Sephardic Jews is a proven recipe for disaster.

Just remember that Jews had been emigrating to the area for generations already. But I do agree that trying to carve two nation states into such a region was something like insanity even if the majority of the population and literally all the neighboring countries weren't against the idea being forced on them by world powers.

The international community's support for the creation of Israel is something that only could have happened at that precise moment in time, when the old European empires were still intact, and the ethics of the great powers were simultaneously aghast at the horrors of fascist genocide and anti-semitism, but simultaneously approving of population exchanges and heavy-handed technocratic nationality policies that were no more than ethnic cleansing.

Edited July 8, 2014 by maturin

[chrisb 196]

Until they talk, nothing will happen and they're not likely to talk much, as we've seen in the past, nothing ever lasts out there, even after they have talked.

If the links to the US weren't so strong, we would probably never get much news about this, also the lobbyist over here (UK), keep this problem on the agenda and in the news.

Its a problem that goes deeper than any of us really know, persecution, paranoia, hatred, the past etc all play too much into this, for it to be resolved. Until people learn to forget and move on, its always going to be the same, but a human problem is, we can’t ever seem to forget.

[ProfTournesol 956]

I've watched several interesting interviews of former members of the Mossad and Shin Beth, regretting the absolute lack of will of the Israeli governement to control their most extremist wings, even the murder of Yitzhak Rabin was never really elucidated (apart from the underlings). When nobody wants peace, nobody should complain about what happens.

[Tonci87 163]

My belief is that Israel is playing a long term strategy. They keep the Arabs down and slowly continue to build new settlements deeper and deeper into their territory

[Variable 322]

Palestine is a general historical term and completely valid for describing the region before 1948. The Palestinians are so-named because they are the native population of the geographic (not political) region known as Palestine. Or the Levant, or whatever.

But so as Judea and Israel, depends who you ask. The point I was trying to make is that saying that, "hey, there was palestine and then the jews invaded and took it to themselves is narrow minded and factually not true. The area west of the Jordan river was inhabited both by Jews and Arabs for ages. It is claimed by both people who both have rights on this land.

The international community's support for the creation of Israel is something that only could have happened at that precise moment in time, when the old European empires were still intact, and the ethics of the great powers were simultaneously aghast at the horrors of fascist genocide and anti-semitism, but simultaneously approving of population exchanges and heavy-handed technocratic nationality policies that were no more than ethnic cleansing.

The way you put it is a a bit one sided. The 48 war was forced on the Jews by the Arabs, and In any case, there was no policy for ethnic cleansing. On the countrary. Ben Gurion practically begged the arab leaders to instruct their population not to leave. There were some local deportations initiated by local army commanders, true, but a lot more Arabs just took off. It was war after all.

Also, the Jewish population, Jewish industry, establishments and infrastructure were already flourishing during WW2, the state of Israel was almost a de-facto fact even back then. The holocaust might have accelerated the official international process, but it's not the reason why the state of Israel exist.

[hellfire257 3]

It's a difficult problem made difficult by difficult people. From my standpoint, it is an infinite cycle of stupidity by both sides. It exasperates me to be honest. I think the creation of Israel was a huge screw-up, but it is too late for that now. There needs to be peace but where on earth would you start? It's awful.

[krycek 349]

In 50 years we'll have the same scenario there,like Hellfire said the stupidity of both sides is astonishing.

Same scenario every time,only difference is which side is more trigger happy at that time:

Hamas:Let's launch some missiles on Israel cities and see what happens.

Israel:Hmm a suicide bomber blew up a bus,I know let's retaliate by bombing the crap out of everyone,wonder what will happen.

[Xalteva 10]

Not that simple ! you can't put both of them on the same level ... Israel is committing crimes against palestinians each day ! stealing their lands ,preventing them from getting any help,making their daily life a true nightmare,surrounding them by fences etc ... it's not about being stupid,it's just some people trying to survive the tyranny of Israel ! what's the difference between ISIS who is killing in the name of Allah and Israel dominating palestinians because of a religious writing ?

When they kill your son,brother,mother and father ... all you want to do is seeking revenge,and that is not stupidity !

Edited July 10, 2014 by Xalteva

[Xalteva 10]

[Variable 322]

Well, so I guess Israel just need to tolerate rockets fired on its citizens and not retaliate against rocket launchers and ammo stores and Hamas leaders because Gaza is densely populated. How convenient.

[maturin 12]

None of Israel's major incursions in Gaza have had a stated aim of stopping the rocket attacks, nor do military officials pretend that their actions have a chance of seriously degrading militants' attempts to launch them. They just go and bomb, invariably killing dozens or hundreds of civilians. It's either some sort of madness, waging war with no achievable goals or possible victory (much like the rocket attacks themselves), or it's collective punishment, using indiscriminate weapons on the population as a whole. Depending on who's asking.

[vilas 477]

both sides are VERY religious, both believe in their superiority "because god chosen them" and this makes all problems,

[.kju 3245]

Good read: How Politics and Lies Triggered an Unintended War in Gaza - Kidnap, Crackdown, Mutual Missteps and a Hail of Rockets by J.J. Goldberg

For example:

The initial evidence was the recording of victim Gilad Shaer’s desperate cellphone call to Moked 100, Israel’s 911. When the tape reached the security services the next morning — neglected for hours by Moked 100 staff — the teen was heard whispering “They’ve kidnapped me†(“hatfu otiâ€) followed by shouts of “Heads down,†then gunfire, two groans, more shots, then singing in Arabic. That evening searchers found the kidnappers’ abandoned, torched Hyundai, with eight bullet holes and the boys’ DNA. There was no doubt.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu immediately placed a gag order on the deaths. Journalists who heard rumors were told the Shin Bet wanted the gag order to aid the search. For public consumption, the official word was that Israel was “acting on the assumption that they’re alive.†It was, simply put, a lie.