Female character models

[vegeta897 13]

Last I checked, people didn't ask for more females in books, this is my entire gripe.There is absolutely nothing wrong with the current situation and people try to shoehorn their world views into games. That's the gist of it. Keep this crap out of my video games.

I didn't say there was a problem with gender representation in books. If there was absolutely nothing wrong with the current situation, female gamers would not be facing the enormous amount of stigmatization they face when playing online amongst male gamers. Much of online gaming is still seen as a "guy's thing" by many, when it really has no reason to be, other than the fact that most protagonists are badass males, and any female characters are there for eye candy. It must be easy for you, as a male gamer, to say "there is absolutely nothing wrong". That is insanely naive and closedminded. If you have never seen evidence of female gamers being harassed for their gender in an online game, you are in for a rude awakening.

Weird, because you just had a post on the page prior that says otherwise

Show me. I never said I needed female characters, soldier or civilian, in Arma for me to enjoy it. In this thread I talked about the reasons why BIS probably didn't include them, and then I talked about why including female soldiers would not be unrealistic. Nowhere did I say females were needed in this game, or that I cared whether they were included or not. I'd rather BIS make their own priorities.

Video games are NOT a political medium where every subgroup of people needs to be represented. Do you want females in Tetris too? Honest question.

Good lord, man. I'm talking about social responsibilities. If videogames are to progress as a form of entertainment that isn't highly biased toward the male demographic (for no good reason, that is the key point) then we need to stop seeing the same old stereotypes in them. The only reason they persist is because developers look at what has been successful in the past and copy it. They are generally afraid to make a game that has a strong female main character. It's risky. This is why things need to change. Why should that be risky? It's not risky in literature. It's not risky in television, or movies. Starting to see the problem?

Tetris doesn't have males either, so asking me this question just tells me you're missing the point entirely.

If you start to alter artistic works to add political correctness in the form of more women, more people of whatever, hell even if it's the prime example of female representation and there's literally no male characters, adding male characters would still be a bad thing. Forcing artists to change their piece of art so it fits political correctness or some agenda ( ie. "representation of women in video games" ) is an extremely dangerous thing to ask for. The last people who tried to change art to fit their world views and ban art that didn't fit it happen to be responsible for the Holocaust too. In art EVERYTHING goes, freedom of speech largely means the freedom to speak and create things that YOU don't like, this is what it means to live in a free country.

In art, everything must be doable, otherwise it stops being art. If I want to make a game that literally lets you rape and torture women, then you might find it disgusting, but it is my god damn right to do so as an artist, and not you, nor anyone else will take that right from me.

Let artist do whatever they want and don't force them to change their work to appeal to the masses. Art MUST be able to provoke, to disgust and to be hated

There's a major flaw in your comparison between videogames and art. True art, the kind with creative expression, is not created for the purpose of selling copies. The trend in videogames for males to be badasses and females to be eyecandy is not about "artistic expression". Give me a break. It's about going after the teen male demographic. They're trying to make their product attractive to their audience. Last time I checked, that is not what artists do. Artists express creativity. There is nothing creative about following marketing trends.

Nobody's asking for existing works to be altered or censored. And I certainly support your right to make a rape and torture game. But we're talking about games that actually have widespread mainstream appeal. Your rape game will never have that, so it's highly irrelevant. The mainstream industry needs to start adopting more progressive trends. There is nothing inherently male-oriented in the gameplay of an RPG, for example, yet almost all RPGs feature buff men and scantily clad perfect figure women. Is it necessary that the females in those games look like sex objects? Will the game suck if they are not? Will the gameplay (you know, the part that matters) change at all? You might argue "if males make up their biggest demographic, why wouldn't they try to appeal to them?" And here we have a catch 22. Developers put objectified women in their games and create a male-dominated online environment, which ostracizes female gamers from playing it. If developers stopped relying on sex appeal to tap into the male demographic, and actually sold their games on more non-gender-biased merits (like, gee, I don't know, gameplay), we'd start to see things evening out, and being a female online would no longer be viewed as a rare thing, greeted with hostility or sexualization. ("girls can't play games", or "tits or gtfo")

Edited July 27, 2014 by vegeta897

[sorophx 25]

ignoring the fact that Jazz Shaw just reposted it, and is not the actual person in question

I meant his previous article, the one that prompted that "woman" to "reply"

[Cephel 10]

lots of text

You are completely mising the point. Entirely.

People are dicks online, learn to live with it. People are dick to women and attack them beacuse they are women because it's the most easy way to get them riled up. Do an experiment and pretend you are jewish, from a third world country, gay, or whatever. People online will use these things to attack you. This is how the internet works, and you will NEVER change this, as long as the internet is a free institution with no regulation. Unless you turn the internet into an orweillian nightmare, this will NEVER EVER change.

Again, people attack women, not because they somehow hate women, but because attacking their womanhood is the most easy way to piss them off, that's how it works. Everyone, me included, gets crap online on a daily basis. To claim this is a woman only thing is being INCREDIBLY naive to online culture and simply how things work.

You learn to live with the crap and ignore it, not ask to include more female characters which will solve nothing, except ruin good games in the process ( already happened on several occasions ). It's the fucking internet, you have the choice to simply not look at when people give you crap. Like, physically look away from the monitor. Use ignore and mute functions that nowadays exist in pretty much every online game.

Video games are largely a boys things as you call it because men simply make up the overwhelming majority of gamers world wide. All those statistic that claim that females are roughly 50% of gamers are including facebook games, flash games and other non-core games in their statistic, in an attempt to boost female numbers. Look up statistics of women in specific video games, you'll see that they make up less than 10% of pretty much every core-game ever.

Again, there is nothing wrong with the current situation, and including more female characters, will solve absolutely nothing.

They are generally afraid to make a game that has a strong female main character. It's risky. This is why things need to change. Why should that be risky?

It's risky because those games simply don't sell. If you want to make money in an industry, you research your target audience. And for video games that's males. The last game that was highly praised by online feminists for being "progressive", "Remember Me" sold like absolute DOGSHIT. Female gamers make up an incredibly small part of the gaming culture. On or offline. Why should the industry change to suit a small minority? The minority should just adapt to the norm instead, like it is with everything else ever.

Edited July 28, 2014 by Cephel

[roshnak 41]

Everybody should probably stop arguing with Cephel. He is almost certainly trolling and you're letting him draw you into an entirely irrelevant argument.

[Cephel 10]

Everybody should probably stop arguing with Cephel. He is almost certainly trolling and you're letting him draw you into an entirely irrelevant argument.

Opinion you don't like and can't refute is now trolling, k.

[vegeta897 13]

You are completely mising the point. Entirely.

Pot and kettle...

This isn't about people who are already internet trolls. It's about the concept of a female gamer. A girl simply using voicechat in an online game instantly conveys her gender. The same cannot be said about a homosexual, a jew, or a third world country resident. Further, none of those carry the same stigma when it comes to gaming. Have you ever heard "jews suck at videogames?" Now how about "girls suck at videogames?" The latter is what girls often hear when playing online. They're not just attacked for their gender alone, they're attacked for playing the game to begin with.

To further break your analogy, portraying gays and jews in a demeaning fashion is not as pervasive a trend in mainstream games as it is for women.

To claim this is a woman only thing is being INCREDIBLY naive to online culture and simply how things work.

Where the hell did I claim that dealing with assholes on the internet was a female-only thing?

If you really think there is nothing wrong with the situation of being a female gamer today, I could direct you toward large groups of internet communities that would love to tell you otherwise. It's also plain for me to see as a male who has seen the way girl gamers are treated first hand (I have a gamer sister), but I guess you just want to keep telling yourself there's nothing wrong. I'm also amused that you think gender representation in videogames has no effect. Educate yourself.

It's risky because those games simply don't sell. If you want to make money in an industry, you research your target audience. And for video games that's males. The last game that was highly praised by online feminists for being "progressive", "Remember Me" sold like absolute DOGSHIT. Female gamers make up an incredibly small part of the gaming culture. On or offline. Why should the industry change to suit a small minority? The minority should just adapt to the norm instead, like it is with everything else ever.

You're stating what I already stated is the problem. Remember what I said about a catch 22? You're describing it. Industry makes games for males, females feel excluded, and they remain a minority. But there is zero good reason for that. Manipulating a game pad or moving a mouse and hitting keyboard keys is not inherently biased toward men or women, and neither are the gameplay mechanics that follow. Majority of male gamers continue to feel that gaming is a man's thing, and ostracize any females they encounter. Yeah, that doesn't sound like a problem at all, and nothing needs to change.

[BL1P 35]

Need Female characters to do more videos like this :)

Shameless plug :p

[soulis6 24]

Everybody should probably stop arguing with Cephel. He is almost certainly trolling and you're letting him draw you into an entirely irrelevant argument.

Agreed

[Cephel 10]

Wikipedia

Opinion instantly discarded. That whole article shouldn't even exist and I flagged it as such, as it is neither scientific, nor written to promote factual work, it's a bunch of mindless feminist rambling attempting to sound credible, let's see what happens.

And on video games: Women are "guests" in this industry, don't expect this industry to change to cater to the new guy, it shouldn't. Women can simply adapt to the industry, not the other way around. And as for stigmas, if you ever played an online game in the last 5 years, the current biggest stigma aren't women, it's being from certain countries. Brazilians, Russians, French, etc. all have a MUCH bigger stigma in video games than women, simply because there's more of them in games and you encounter them more often.

But, and this is the surprise, nobody is asking for more french or brazilian or russian protagonists, nobody is saying there's a problem here, because there is none. I really hate to repeat myself, but people on the internet are dicks, 99.99% are. You can NOT change this, ever. It was like since gaming as a hobby existed, in fact it existed before that, in the form of nitpicking on players shortcomings that have nothing to do with a game, as in, an actual physical game. People use the most easy way to insult someone, be it heritage, race, skin color, or sex. This is how things work on this planet. It didn't suddenly become a problem when the first woman decided to try out video games and it isn't a problem now. You learn to live with it, you learn to not listen to them and you learn to use the ignore and mute buttons.

Deal with it

[roshnak 41]

But, and this is the surprise, nobody is asking for more french or brazilian or russian protagonists, nobody is saying there's a problem here

This is literally a thing that commonly happens on these very forums.

[vegeta897 13]

Opinion instantly discarded. That whole article shouldn't even exist and I flagged it as such, as it is neither scientific, nor written to promote factual work, it's a bunch of mindless feminist rambling attempting to sound credible, let's see what happens.

Not written to promote factual work? I guess you don't understand how Wikipedia works. There are 54 citations in the article. Almost every other sentence in the article has a source cited. Do you want to go refute each and one of those for me before you dismiss my entire post (by the way, the wiki article was one small bit of my entire post)

And on video games: Women are "guests" in this industry

Women can simply adapt to the industry, not the other way around.

I don't play games to look at sexualized females. Removing sexualized females from gaming is not going to ruin it for me. You're acting like better gender representation is going to ruin gaming. Can you not enjoy a game if the female characters in it are not sex objects? All you've done is cite a couple games that are in your eyes ruined because the developers tried to represent women better. I fail to see what that proves, because we're talking about trends here, not cherry picking. There are many games that ARE successful that have strong female protagonists and/or non sexualized women. And this isn't just about making games more appealing to women. It's about the gender roles that videogames are drilling into children's fertile minds. Go look at that Wikipedia article again for links to actual research on this.

And as for stigmas, if you ever played an online game in the last 5 years, the current biggest stigma aren't women, it's being from certain countries. Brazilians, Russians, French, etc. all have a MUCH bigger stigma in video games than women, simply because there's more of them in games and you encounter them more often.

I didn't say it was the "biggest" stigma. Why would it have to be? I explained why it was different from other stigmas, yet you keep comparing it to things like race and nationality. You seem to have completely ignored the differences I pointed out, so I'm not going to waste more time with you.

Deal with it

Such a progressive attitude.

[Cephel 10]

I guess you don't understand how Wikipedia works

I guess YOU don't understand how wikipedia works, everyone can just walk up there and edit it, citing sources doesn't increase the credibility of your article at all. You can literally make shit up and write it in. Give me an actual scientific paper and I'll read it, the cited sources are all complete horse shit btw, I've read them, contrary to you.

I don't play games to look at sexualized females

Some people do, and they were here first. You can simply not play those games if you don't like them. Nobody forces you to look at them or play them

Removing sexualized females from gaming is not going to ruin it for me

It will for some people, not me, again, you can simply not play them if you don't like them

You're acting like better gender representation is going to ruin gaming

It will, because it moves the focus from making good games, to making politically correct games

Can you not enjoy a game if the female characters in it are not sex objects

Some people can, some people can't, good thing you have a choice. Can you not enjoy a game if the female characters are sex objects? And this is already implying that such games even exist in large quantities

You honestly remind me of this at this comic at this point. Pointless bickering about a non issue and doesn't even know what he's talking about. There is a SHITTON of perfectly finely represented women in video games, you are completely wrong about this

There are many games that ARE successful that have strong female protagonists and/or non sexualized women

My point exactly, there is no problem here. But if you feel that every game should have strong female characters or something similar, then you are the problem, not the solution.

It's about the gender roles that videogames are drilling into children's fertile minds

The word you're looking for is "parenting". If you let your kids play violent, degrading or otherwise video games that are unsuited for kids, then it's your fault, not the fault of the people who made them. You as a parent have a responsibility to raise your kids, not let video games do that part. What kind of fucked up argument is this? Would you let your kids play with armed and loaded guns too? No you fucking would lock those away, and you certainly wouldn't complain to gun manufacturers that "they're drilling bullets into children's fertile heads". Again, this is your responsibility, not video games.

Why would it have to be? I explained why it was different from other stigmas

But it isn't, go play an online game and wait for someone to speak with an accent, they will INSTANTLY realize you're from a foreign country and use that to trashtalk you if they're mad at you. Same exact shit. Women aren't special.

Such a progressive attitude

Such a naive response

[bauerhousebourne 1]

Ofcourse female soldiers should be added to the game. You who think otherwise obviously never served in the military!

[soulis6 24]

But it isn't, go play an online game and wait for someone to speak with an accent, they will INSTANTLY realize you're from a foreign country and use that to trashtalk you if they're mad at you. Same exact shit. Women aren't special.

This would only be applicable if, for example, half the world was from Brazil, and there were no Brazilians in Arma. Then your argument would make some sort of sense, instead of being nonsense.

[vegeta897 13]

I guess YOU don't understand how wikipedia works, everyone can just walk up there and edit it, citing sources doesn't increase the credibility of your article at all. You can literally make shit up and write it in. Give me an actual scientific paper and I'll read it, the cited sources are all complete horse shit btw, I've read them, contrary to you.

Ah, so you're one of those "everything on wikipedia is bullshit" people who doesn't understand that it's a peer-reviewed and highly organized reputable website. Go ahead and edit that article with made up shit and see how long it lasts. Guess what, the cited sources are not on Wikipedia, so those can't be edited by anyone. And you just dismiss them again, this time calling them "horse shit" without any explanation at all. Great, good job.

But it isn't, go play an online game and wait for someone to speak with an accent, they will INSTANTLY realize you're from a foreign country and use that to trashtalk you if they're mad at you. Same exact shit. Women aren't special.

I already explained to you that I'm not talking about people who are already going to talk shit to anyone. Girls are instantly viewed differently when they are discovered in an online game, even by people who aren't going to talk shit to them. They are viewed differently because they are so uncommon in those games. It's not weird to see a Brazillian, or someone from any other country playing an online game. That is just as normal as anything else. It is not normal yet for girls, and your attitude seems to be completely against that. Everything you're saying to me is basically this: video games were targeted toward men first, and that should never change (just because!), and anyone who wants it to change is going to ruin gaming, and women should just deal with it. "Just don't play it" is a shitty thing to tell someone, when the reason they aren't playing is because of one aspect that is completely irrelevant to the gameplay makes them uncomfortable. It's like if the next Arma game had giant penises for weapons, and you told everyone "just don't play it then if you don't like it". What are we gaining from that?

I don't know why you think a developer needs to "focus" on not making their female characters sex objects. This isn't about political correctness, and I don't know where you got that from. I'm not advocating adding empowering women to all games just for the sake of adding empowering women. I'm saying developer should stop with the cheap marketing tactics (TnA) because it brings down the reputation of the industry. People keep seeing games with ridiculous female characters and continue dismissing it as a hobby for horny teenage boys.

With an attitude like yours, gaming would never improve in any way shape or form, because "this is how it is, and anyone that doesn't like it should deal with it." Unless you're only saying this because it's about what women want, because you seem to be pretty anti-feminist. When you're unsatisfied with the state of gaming, are you going to tell yourself to deal with it? You really seem to me like a person who is totally incapable of putting himself in somebody else's shoes. I'm not a woman, and I can understand what it must be like the be a girl gamer. You just dismiss it all as "non-issue" and tell people to deal with it.

Edited July 30, 2014 by vegeta897

[fabittar 10]

I'm pro women in the military. In fact, it's pretty odd that we don't have any women in the game, civilian or not. BIS, please add in some girls.

Gender equality has been around for at least a decade now, and it should only be even more visible in the future.

[silentghoust 132]

Like I said before, and I will say again. Women are joining front line units, it is happening right now. This game is projected almost 20 years in the future, its not even a debate. It is a fact that their would be female soldiers serving at least NATO.

Its not even really a debate rather women should or should not. The game itself was met to simulate future warfare, so its only logical they included female units.

[laverniusregalis 10]

As I said before: Why is Altis full of only men?

[Aeriyn 10]

Relevant video. Women participating in conflicts does happen, often as not.

[sorophx 25]

just watch Lioness, ffs. women of the USMC fought and killed in Iraq during Operation Iraqi Freedom. that's a well known fact. I don't know why people even debate this

[semiconductor 309]

45 minutes ago, leverrocket said:

Mymodelplace is an online social networking platform for models, from where one can hire young female and teen swimwear models. They offer the opportunities for new & experienced models to create an account for free to upload their videos, photos & portfolios.

Welp, the discussion sure took an unexpected turn here. Thanks though, I have been thinking that I probably should hire young female and teen swimwear models to promote my coop missions..

[joostsidy 685]

3 hours ago, leverrocket said:

Mymodelplace is an online social networking platform for models, from where one can hire young female and teen swimwear models. They offer the opportunities for new & experienced models to create an account for free to upload their videos, photos & portfolios.

 

Guys, do not use these models. I managed to import them into Arma, they have very nice textures and custom animations, but lack proper vests and helmets. Only swimwear available. I also think there are problems with the AI. The experienced models keeping 360-noscoping me, no matter what my difficulty settings are.

[almanzo 144]

Oh god, how much I hate to end up in the middle of two clear positions... But here we go:

I'll adress Vegeta first. Representation in games is important to some degree, but while the AAA market might focus on a spesific demographic that is mainly male dominated, there are huge markets that directly cater to women and other minorities. Companies such as "Her interactive" is a good example, and there are a lot of developers who are making games for both casual players, or players who wants a different experience than is offered by the AAA industry. In short, there is enough demand for alternative games and the current system is flexible enough to meet that demand. The fact that different games deliberately caters to certain demographics is not a problem, no matter if we are talking about men, boys, girls, motorheads, gun nuts or people who enjoy sexualized women in their games.
 

Quote

Girls are instantly viewed differently when they are discovered in an online game, even by people who aren't going to talk shit to them. They are viewed differently because they are so uncommon in those games. It's not weird to see a Brazillian, or someone from any other country playing an online game. That is just as normal as anything else. It is not normal yet for girls, and your attitude seems to be completely against that. Everything you're saying to me is basically this: video games were targeted toward men first, and that should never change (just because!), and anyone who wants it to change is going to ruin gaming, and women should just deal with it. "Just don't play it" is a shitty thing to tell someone, when the reason they aren't playing is because of one aspect that is completely irrelevant to the gameplay makes them uncomfortable. It's like if the next Arma game had giant penises for weapons, and you told everyone "just don't play it then if you don't like it". What are we gaining from that?

 

It's rare to find women who play shooters, I agree. However, you seem to think that the main reason for that being the case that the community is toxic or that the games themselves are sexist. In no part of your reasoning do you seem to ever consider that men and women in general have different interests, but that in all statistics there are deviations and variations from the norm. Just as it's rare for men to be interested in knitting, it is rare to find women who enjoy shooters. The reasons for this is to some extent up for debate, but there is demonstrably a difference. Now, gaming is a hobby, and so are playing fps games. In my mind, I can't find any reason for thinking that there is a problem with the fact that FPS games don't appeal to most women, the fact that those who play FPS games are mainly men should not be a problem. What does matter though, is that the women who do play are treated fairly. My point is that there is nothing wrong with games targeted towards men, and you seem to ignore that a lot of games are targeted towards women or have women as their main audience, in addition to a lot of games that have a more general appeal. Statisticly, women play more games than men do, but they play different games than men do. Please give me a reasonable explanation for why this should be a problem?

Now I'll address Cephel: First of all, in a lot of countries in Europe, who are members of NATO women serve in combat roles. That's just a fact. I live in Norway, and Norway's armed forces is based on conscripts, and the rules apply to all. Women are conscripted at the same rate as men are, and women are found in allmost all branches of the norwegian military. The same is true in a lot of other countries. As such, female soldiers would make sense in ARMA.

However, what matters more is the complete lack of female civilians, and this is a huge limitation for mission makers and others who are designing and making content for ARMA. ARMA II had a lot of female models in their game, and there was no one who ever complained that their existence took away anything from the experience. Not only did ARMA 2 have female civilians, the civilian population itself was reasonably clothed and actually looked like they inhabited Chernarus and Takistan. The terrible, terrible civ faction in ARMA III is severly lacking, and they all look like they are tourists. The civilian faction even in Operation Flashpoint was more fleshed out than this. So yeah, I can't see how adding female models would do anything but add to the experience of ARMA, they absence at least as civilians is completely stupid.

[Zhivets 2392]

Female civilians? Sure!

Female soldiers? Meh. No thanks. You can keep your strong empowered women in other games.

[dragon01 902]

Considering how ArmA3's uniform system works, if they make a female body model, then they'd pretty much have to support military uniforms as well. There'd be nothing stopping people from starting as a civilian and trying to put on a uniform in Eden or Virtual Arsenal. There'd be no end to complaints if they imposed an arbitrary restriction on that. 

 

The truth is, setting up female models is a lot of work (as modders trying to do it have found). It'd also require an alternate variant of each uniform and at least one radio protocol for every language. Since ArmA3 is devoid of civilians in general, I'm not surprised that they decided to save themselves some work. I do not agree with this decision (much like I don't agree with making ArmA devoid of civilians), but I can see where it's coming from. 

 

I do hope BIS will come around eventually. It's not that they don't want to see women fight and/or die (see Captain Aurora from Carrier Command for an example), so any claims like this are most likely just smokescreen (it seems that for some people, sexism is easier to swallow than developer lazyness...). This isn't to say I won't rather have proper sensors and tanks than female soldiers, but at the same time, it's a limitation for both mission creators and the players.