Ukraine General

[oxmox 73]

Back to something more educational and this time about Geopolitics & Energy Sector in the Black Sea, this is a big part of the rivalry in this whole area.

There is a wonderful documentary serie on ARTE TV (franco/german TV network) which is called "Le Dessous Des Cartes" (Mit offenen Karten/with open cards).

This short movie shows with visual maps the competition of the energy sector in the black sea and gives a deeper understanding about parts of the geopolitics in this area. Unfortunately this is only shown in french and german, but has great visual maps which explains the context. The short film shows the rival pipeline net between russia and the USA/(EU).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVXYq6MSmwA

@Misty Ronin - BTW the other thousand Russian soldiers beside those 10, recognized by the same DPR, got lost too?

Arent these 10 russians the only official russian troops captured so far.....thats at least what I did understand.

Edited September 16, 2014 by oxmox

[Rydygier 1302]

http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/swiat/gen-polko-rosja-moze-uzyc-wojny-hybrydowej-przeciwko-polsce/dgmjx

- "Hybrid war" is nothing new, according to this scenario ran most of the conflicts in world history. In 1939, we had to deal with "funny war" when the goal was only Warsaw. West woke up too late, and today is the same when it comes to playing down the conflict in Ukraine - warned gen. Roman Polko in an interview with Onet. - Such propaganda, it uses today Russia, is not worthy of Goebbels himself, so we have to unmask. "Hybrid war" may in fact be used in relation to each country - also against the Polish. It is Russia today dictates the terms and NATO changed only rhetoric - said the former commander of GROM.

Gen. Roman Polko notes, however, that the term "hybrid war" is most often used to demonstrate that there is "something new", "unprecedented in the history of the world" while serving as an excuse that "we were not prepared for such a scenario, "and therefore" can not or do not want to respond effectively. "

- Meanwhile, most of the conflicts in the history of the world proceeded according to this scenario: provocations in order to find a pretext for aggression, sabotage, running V columns propaganda war. In fact, what we see today is not really there so nothing new - the military said in an interview with Onet. - The fact that a few decades ago there was action in cyberspace, because something just did not exist, there is little change in the typical scenario. But "hybrid war" can be used in relation to each country - also against Poland - he added.

The former commander of GROM believes that the most effective response to the propaganda accompanying this strategy would be to expose it, and the "little green men" - that is, the soldiers without signs nationality and military - should be treated by the world "as terrorists." - Such propaganda, which today uses Russia, would not be ashamed Goebbels himself, we have to unmask. International conventions and agreements on the conduct of war apply only to soldiers, uniformed and bearing signs of nationality - he noted.

as long as the West does not feel threatened, it will have a tendency to downplay what is happening in Ukraine and the recognition of the war as a local conflict with low international importance - stressed gen. Polko.

NATO, despite drastic budget cuts to the military in Europe, still has a dominant advantage over Russia: military, economic, and in cyberspace. - However, today's Russia dictates the terms and NATO, despite indications of danger of its eastern flank reacts only to the change of rhetoric - a kind of "Russia is no longer a trusted partner, which was after all a few months ago"; Vladimir Putin is still assessed rather as "bad boy" than someone who might want to hit more than just the Ukraine - said in an interview with Onet.

The former commander of GROM notes that, while during the NATO summit in Newport established that Poland will be stationed so called Spearhead, its size and the possible way to respond to emerging threats leaves much to be desired.

- Several hundred soldiers at the battalion level, which alone, without the consent of the high command will not be able to take any decision to enter into the fight shows that common sense and a strong iron fist symbolizing the strength of the existing immediate reaction from the 60s to 2002 today defeated own, NATO-pointer bureaucracy - said General. Polko in an interview with Onet.

---------- Post added at 22:08 ---------- Previous post was at 22:04 ----------

I don´t think they were really "lost" every one of those machines has advanced navigational software (maybe they didn´t have the map of Poland loaded into it ). It sounds more like either really bad weather forced them to land or the US went for a little PR stunt.

http://www.tvp.pl/bydgoszcz/aktualnosci/spoleczne/amerykanskie-smiglowce-musialy-ladowac-przez-mgle/16772556

American helicopters over the region. 6 machines flying to the base in Mirosławiec, because of the fog had forced landing in a field near Grudziadz. Residents have used it to meet with soldiers and look inside those big machines.

The pictures can be observed transport helicopter, and 5 assault machines belonging to the United States Army. American soldiers take part in training with the Polish officers. A close look at them could inhabitants of the town of Gruta not far from Grudziadz. Inclement weather forced the pilots to make an emergency landing in a field.

[mistyronin 1181]

Arent these 10 russians the only official russian troops captured so far.....thats at least what I did understand.

According to the Kremlin Ukraine captured officially 11 Russian soldiers, but according to the pro-Russian leaders:

( The Guardian ) Ukrainian rebel leader: Russian soldiers are fighting among us - video

The prime minister of rebel group the Donetsk People's Republic, Alexander Zakharchenko, says serving Russian soldiers are fighting among rebel forces in Ukraine. The separatist leader says claims of a Russian invasion in eastern Ukraine are an attempt to justify the defeats of the Ukrainian army

[oxmox 73]

According to the Kremlin Ukraine captured officially 11 Russian soldiers, but according to the pro-Russian leaders:

( The Guardian ) Ukrainian rebel leader: Russian soldiers are fighting among us - video

Yeah, of course there are soldiers from russia but we dont have to discuss again the difference between official ones or not. We did it alraedy, isnt it.

Anyway, we are discussing too much about local happenings in the Ukraine and dont talk about geopolitics/economical interests of the USA/EU/Russia. This plays a huge part in many international conflicts. These conflicts are happening in most of the cases due to interests in sales markets & ressources, hidden under the cloak of humanism or other explanations.

Edited September 16, 2014 by oxmox

[Tonci87 163]

Yeah, of course there are soldiers from russia but we dont have to discuss again the difference between official ones or not. We did it alraedy, isnt it.

Anyway, we are discussing too much about local happenings in the Ukraine and dont talk about geopolitics/economical interests of the USA/EU/Russia. This plays a huge part in many international conflicts. These conflicts are happening in most of the cases due to interests in sales markets & ressources, hidden under the cloak of humanism or other explanations.

I hope you don´t actually believe them that those soldiers are only there "on vacation". They had orders, apparently conscripts didn´t even know where they were going.

[.kju 3240]

Zbigniew Brzezinski, Henry Kissinger, Council on Foreign Relations, Center for Strategic and International Studies, RAND Corporation, Heritage Foundation, etc

These are people or organizations to look into and follow if you want to learn more about what is going on the geo-strategical level, interests of the US/NATO.

Like 3 months ago

Zbigniew Brzezinski "Ukraine Is A Problem The United States & Europe & NATO Must Address..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMNcSKAMJMI

Not the general premise of that channel is really meaningful, nor many of its videos..

However its just a C-Span recording: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-SPAN

This is all long time in the making with various ugly stuff happening from all sides.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Youre right, persecutions on ethnic grounds, conducted by the regime that occupies part of ukrainian territory, has nothing to do with anything. Especially with country, which said territory belongs to, and is a subject of this same thread.

Ugh...:confused_o:

When ever you add small minorities to the mix, you end up with a lot of hate. Those minorities are not really being persecuted and they will almost always "invent" more and more things to get a wider support (the best example of this is Kosovo Albanians, which is a story really similar to this). And Crimea is practically not Ukraine anymore (in theory yes, also depending on whom you ask).

Edited September 16, 2014 by aleksadragutin

[jakerod 254]

When ever you add small minorities to the mix, you end up with a lot of hate. Those minorities are not really being persecuted and they will almost always "invent" more and more things to get a wider support (the best example of this is Kosovo Albanians, which is a story really similar to this). And Crimea is practically not Ukraine anymore (in theory yes, also depending on whom you ask).

I'm fairly certain that Crimea is part of Ukraine it's just that the Russians stole it and have no intention of giving it back. So it isn't really practically not part of Ukraine it's that Putin is a thief.

[oxmox 73]

;2776875']Zbigniew Brzezinski' date=' Henry Kissinger, Council on Foreign Relations, Center for Strategic and International Studies, RAND Corporation, Heritage Foundation, etc

These are people or organizations to look into and follow if you want to learn more about what is going on the geo-strategical level, interests of the US/NATO.

Like 3 months ago

Zbigniew Brzezinski "Ukraine Is A Problem The United States & Europe & NATO Must Address..."

[url']https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMNcSKAMJMI[/url]

Not the general premise of that channel is really meaningful, nor many of its videos..

However its just a C-Span recording: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-SPAN

This is all long time in the making with various ugly stuff happening from all sides.

Well, when you already mention such names. "Zbigniew Brzezinski "Ukraine Is A Problem The United States & Europe & NATO Must Address..."....of course it is a problem for him (the US nation) because the expansion of US global influence collides here with the sphere of Russian interests.

Zbigniew Brzezinski, who is polish and was born in Warszawa, was and is probably still the most leading geostrategist and consultant for US presidents and he was also in the position of the National Security Advisor. He is very famous and his books are important to understand international politics and especially geopolitics, the interests of the world power USA and their involvements in the whole world.

This is one of the most intersting book about the strategy of US supramacy/geopolitics - it is actually a must read:

The Grand Chessboard: American Primacy and Its Geostrategic Imperatives.

This book explains the geopolitical thoughts about power and influence, US global hegemony in the world. What tools are used to widen the influence and to hold influence on the US vassals (US partners), how the world is sperated into geostrategical regions and in important geostrategical key countries. How Eurasia is the key for the supremacy of the USA which did not only play a major role in geopolitics in the past for GB&US but aswell nowadays, what role plays the Ukraine for the Sovjetunion/Russia...just some examples which are described in this book. In the German edition, Hans-Dietrich Genscher a former minister of foreign affairs comments with a longer preamble.

He describes how other Empires did achieve their dominance and compares them i.e. Romes, Mongoles, GreatBritain, and more.

There is one conclusion from him: The USA is the first true global power in the history. Not even Great Britain was a true global power, because they did not rule Europe but only kept balance.

Unfortunately and probably by design the english wikipedia does not tell much about his book about the US world view of dominance/influence, wheras you can read a huge wiki entry about it on the german wikipedia.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_einzige_Weltmacht:_Amerikas_Strategie_der_Vorherrschaft

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Grand_Chessboard

The area from Lisbon to Vladivostok (Eurasian Chessboard) is aswell the scene of the "Global Play".

The title is definately an eye opener to understand why a lot of the international conflicts, also the european conflicts are happening. How big of US interests and influence actually exist and how other nations are involved into their network as their vassals, how the US interests collides with other Nations in Euroasia. The book is from 1998 and therefore changes did happen in the world which did alter the strategies described in this book and the positions. Neverless the basic strategy of influence stays and he did release two other interesting books in 2004 and 2012 with new thoughts i.e. "Second Chance".

By the way, Brzezinski makes use of the Halford Mackinder Heartland Theory. The Third Reich was actually inspired among others by the Mackinder Theory and called it "Lebensraum or Drang nach Osten" mixed with their racist ideology, the russian empire actually did hold the heartland. Therefore you will understand aswell a lot more about the geostrategical dimension in the world in general, in history or nowadays.

Mackinder Heartland Theory in short words:

"Who rules East Europe commands the Heartland;

who rules the Heartland commands the World-Island;

who rules the World-Island controls the world."

(Mackinder, Democratic Ideals and Reality, p. 194)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Geographical_Pivot_of_History

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geopolitics

Edited September 17, 2014 by oxmox

[negah 26]

I'm fairly certain that Crimea is part of Ukraine it's just that the Russians stole it and have no intention of giving it back. So it isn't really practically not part of Ukraine it's that Putin is a thief.

With that logic every USA government since 1959 are also thiefs, because they dont want to give back the territory of Guantanamo Bay back to Cuba.

[Rydygier 1302]

Logic is simple. If you steal something, you're a thief, no more, no less. Complications appear, when you try to define, what the theft is. If, widely, it would be "unlawful appropriation", then problem is, what is lawful. Because different countries often have contradictory opinions on that or even different law. Similar with justice.

Thing is, if you really want to take a piece of neighbouring country, due to long and complex history, you'll probably always be able to find suitable justification. Zhirinovsky proposed Poland once (or twice) dividing Ukraine. If we, in Poland, would like to share Russia's gov mentality, then we would be able to find an excuse in our history to "justify" such action pretty easily. But that will not going to happen, Poland itself was divided, also by Russia, so we know, how it "smells" - and we know too well, how Russia's imperialistic mentality "smells", plus, a very good question to ask - "for what purpose?" or "for what good?". Such approach is unthinkable in Poland currently, except some extremists, that plague every nation; although IMHO Lithuania has some good reasons to not like us too much, due to attitude, based on our common past, of some Poles still living there, as I heard. And, I would risk a guess, same rule applies to the most territory of the each pair of neighbouring countries on the planet.

Only, if you start to listen own conscience, to take as crucial factor, what is good and what bad for the people, you perhaps has a chance to define objectively and truly, what's wrong, what's right, what's just, what's not. Understanding the geopolitics, knowledge, so there is no "saints" amongst the countries is good thing, but this, noticing and taking into account the fate of every single human beeing due to given action and judging by this seems much more important to understand. That's the thing, Russia's policy around Ukraine (and geopolitcs as a whole) seems to be completely blind to, or rather applies such arguments in own rethorics all the time, but so often instrumentally and cynically.

Edited September 17, 2014 by Rydygier

[beastcat 14]

Reuters - Factory gives fighter jet to head of Russian Orthodox Church

Patriarch Kirill, the head of the Russian Orthodox Church, was presented with an unlikely gift for a religious leader this week as he toured a factory in Russia's far-east - a single-seater fighter jet SU-35.

"Russia cannot be a vassal. Because Russia is not only a country, it is a whole civilization, it is a thousand-year story, a cultural melting-pot, of enormous power," RIA news agency quoted him as saying.

[surpher 1]

(BBC) Rebels defiant over new self-rule law

Andrei Purgin said there were no plans to develop any political relationship, federal or otherwise, with Ukraine.

But he said there were "positives" in the move by MPs to grant self-rule and an amnesty to pro-Russian rebels.

He said it could be used as the basis for dialogue but rebels would not give up on a desire for "the Russian world".

[Rydygier 1302]

http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/swiat/rosja-w-2015-roku-chce-zwiekszyc-wydatki-wojskowe-o-21-2-proc/9c992

In spite of the deteriorating economic situation, which is a consequence of, among others, sanctions imposed by Western countries, Russia in 2015 intends to increase its military spending by 21.2 percent. - To 3.032 trillion rubles (78.3 billion dollars).

So, their economy will suffer even more, while their potential ability to take from the others, what is lacking at home will increase. Generalizing, of course.

http://forsal.pl/artykuly/822646,niemcy-rozbior-ukrainy-faktem-rosyjska-sila-zmusila-kijow-do-kapitulacji.html

The law granting special status regions of Ukraine dominated by separatists is surrender of Kiev - says the German newspaper "Sueddeutsche Zeitung". The newspaper stresses that the country has been de facto divided ...

Because even though the law with a special status of Donbass is applicable only three years, in fact, there was a division of the country. Abandoned the struggle for the territorial integrity of Ukraine. Moscow and separatists had their way. As we read, many people may feel betrayed.

It is possible that soon on the Maidan again appear demonstrators. The newspaper adds that the President of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko had no other choice. In face of Russia's superiority, the war in the east can be completed only by concessions to separatists. As you can see, concessions association agreement with the European Union is not enough to reduce the pressure of Moscow - we read in the "Sueddeutsche Zeitung".

That much means the law against the force.

[jakerod 254]

With that logic every USA government since 1959 are also thiefs, because they dont want to give back the territory of Guantanamo Bay back to Cuba.

The difference being that Cuba signed a treaty for it. Ukraine didn't.

In 1903, the United States and Cuba signed a lease granting the United States permission to use the land as a coaling and naval station.

Although I do feel like it is possibly still theft. Not really sure. I will have to ponder that.

[mistyronin 1181]

Although I do feel like it is possibly still theft. Not really sure. I will have to ponder that.

At that time the USA and the Cuban Gov. were allies. The USA created that Gov. after expelling the Spanish Colonial Gov. Probably as a way to increase their power in the Caribbean ( same happened in the Pacific, for example in Philippines ).

The one who describes that quite nicely is USMC Major General Smedley Butler, twice awarded with the Medal of Honor:

I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902–1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.

Edited September 17, 2014 by MistyRonin

[negah 26]

http://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/specials/id_71054394/mh17-absturz-30-millionen-dollar-kopfgeld-auf-hintermaenner-ausgesetzt.html

Private Detective offers 30 Millions Dollar (according to the official homepage, see below) and new identity for infromations of shot down plane.

He was contacted several times by middlemen, one of whom had swiss accent, so he doesnt know who the real client is. He was already paid 40000 € and will recieve half a million in case he is successful.

On their homepage are the questions the informant has to answer:

Who has shot down the plane?

Who has ordered it?

Who is covering it? (Even if it was mistakenly shot down)

Who can tell additional Details about the shooting down?

Who else was involved?

What happened to those people?

Who can tell which persons have given the Order?

The money will be handed over in Zürich or other neutral place.

Edited September 17, 2014 by negah

[mistyronin 1181]

Private Detective offers 30 Millions Dollar (according to the official homepage, see below) and new identity for infromations of shot down plane.

That money is more than enough to falsify and bribe enough officials to create a compelent story.

[katipo66 94]

Probably the same amount used to bribe and falsify for official stories, not particulary related to this or anything specific.

[mistyronin 1181]

Probably the same amount used to bribe and falsify for official stories, not particulary related to this or anything specific.

No it would be cheaper. Just have to check some of the Putin's critics that have died in "weird" accidents.

[katipo66 94]

Not unlike some navy seals... its a murky world, lots of theories with no real hard evidence of anything, and again not particularly related to this or anything specific.

[mistyronin 1181]

Not unlike some navy seals... its a murky world, lots of theories with no real hard evidence of anything, and again not particularly related to this or anything specific.

My point was that if someone release sensitive information that can hurt for instance the US interests ( you can add any EU country too ), they arrest them and judge them, probably confining them for a long period ( see Pvt. Manning, Julian Assange or what would happen to Snowden if he is caught ).

While Russian style is more "direct".

That's what could happen to the MH17 case. So open your eyes for any "incident" that may happen.

[Rydygier 1302]

http://www.rp.pl/artykul/1142081.html

Former Russian Prime Minister Mikhail Kasyanov said on TVN 24 Business and the World, that after 2008 and the invasion of Georgia "West remained neutral and Putin realized that he has a free hand." - The annexation of the Crimea and the invasion of the Donbas is the effect - he added.

Former Russian prime minister said in an interview with TVN 24 Business and world that even in 2004-2005, Putin decided that "his popularity and success of the reforms will not use to start the next, and improve the quality of life of Russians, would only strengthen the own power."

Mentioned on this occasion Beslan and crime against children in a school in Ossetia, which - according to Kasyanov - Putin has used to the policy change. - He said that we are surrounded by enemies, and we must defend our borders. As a result of this, let's say, the spirit of mobilization, began to exert strong pressure on the political environment in Russia - said Kasyanov.

According to the former Prime Minister of Russia, what raises the biggest fear among the "15 percent of minded Russians opposed to 85 percent others" - as said - "a complete submission of the people focused around the Kremlin and army to the Vladimir Putin's will".

- There is in Russia no one who would have the courage to oppose Putin in a closed circle, and not a single general who dared to tell Putin that does not comply with its decisions, will not order to march out to fight in the Ukraine. All those generals disappeared. All are obedient, everyone watching on Putin and what to say. This is pure authoritarian regime "- rated Kasyanov.

He also stressed that Putin "is not a leader like Stalin," and does not want war with the West. - Putin is a KGB man. This means provocations, pressuring, transactions and the like. With his actions have on the West pressure and creates problems in order to recognizes that his regime is honest, normal - said the former prime minister of Russia.

Mikhail Kasyanov was prime minister of Russia in 2000-2004 during the presidency of Putin. Currently, he openly criticizes the policy of the President of Russia.

[surpher 1]

(BBC) BBC team under attack in southern Russia

We had gone to investigate reports of Russian servicemen being killed near the border with Ukraine.

As we left a cafe and approached our car, we were confronted and attacked by at least three aggressive individuals.

[negah 26]

Its kind of strange though since Astrakhan is nowhere near the border with Ukraine according to their own map.

The article lacks some important information. Why were they so far from the border if they were investigating what happened at that border. Were they just on the way there?

Perhaps they got somehow involved in other buiseness not knowing it.