Ukraine General

[PuFu 4591]

I hope they don't close down the internet before RHS: Escalation is released.

Most of RHS members are not even living in russia...so there is no need to worry.

[oxmox 73]

http://youtu.be/cUYzeM92Aqw

Russian propaganda show saying that the Ukrainian revolution was an american project and that the war is entirely the fault of the USA, because the USA wants to destroy russia... for reasons. All russian (russian as in people inside of russia who want to separate from russia) separatist activists are paid american fsb agents and the USA want to steal Siberia and other territories of russia. They also use their jewish money in order to sow dissent between russia and China. There is probably much more, but I couldnt watch further, because it such a pain.

The West (USA) has definately a big influence in the Ukraine, it did happen in the Ukraine already in the 2004 orange revolution. Actually the history shows like a red line their speciality, to influence, topple or overthrow regimes in the world.

US campaign behind the turmoil in Kiev (The Guardian)

....the campaign is an American creation, a sophisticated and brilliantly conceived exercise in western branding and mass marketing that, in four countries in four years, has been used to try to salvage rigged elections and topple unsavoury regimes.

The operation - engineering democracy through the ballot box and civil disobedience - is now so slick that the methods have matured into a template for winning other people's elections.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa

Edited September 21, 2014 by oxmox

[beastcat 14]

Most of RHS members are not even living in russia...so there is no need to worry.

It would still suck though...

in pre-WW2 Nazi Germany anyone who not agreed with state politics was considered enemy of state or foreign spy

you risked jail time, some "unknown" SA guys beating you, various forms of pressure, later SS just picked you and nobody ever found you alive etc.

feels like largest country in world is slowly turning into state very similar to that

You had the same thing just worse in the soviet union, so its nothing new for russia. I remember some story of a guy being killed for accidentally stepping on a picture of stalin. And even the brother of my great grandfather was killed for eating fish that jews usually eat. His close family has been banned from the party for collaborating with a jew, which means that you were unable to use many services and so on.

---------- Post added at 07:17 ---------- Previous post was at 07:07 ----------

The West (USA) has definately a big influence in the Ukraine, it did happen in the Ukraine already in the 2004 orange revolution. Actually the history shows like a red line their speciality, to influence, topple or overthrow regimes in the world.

US campaign behind the turmoil in Kiev (The Guardian)

....the campaign is an American creation, a sophisticated and brilliantly conceived exercise in western branding and mass marketing that, in four countries in four years, has been used to try to salvage rigged elections and topple unsavoury regimes.

The operation - engineering democracy through the ballot box and civil disobedience - is now so slick that the methods have matured into a template for winning other people's elections.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa

People were against the government from pretty much the first moment that Ukraine existed as a consequence of the soviet union falling apart, because they did not get the autonomy they wanted. Even if this is an FBI or whatever project, it can't succed without the peoples support, but in the end if it ends up with a proper democracy I really couldn't care less. Also this is still far from what the russian show is saying, with it being that the US started the war in order to destroy russia and steal russian land, funding separatists in russia.

[oxmox 73]

but in the end if it ends up with a proper democracy I really couldn't care less.

Just a thought:

The Ukraine had a democratic elected president isnt it, why did they throw him out with force instead vote him off in the next elections ?

Imagine something like this would happen in the UK, Germany or in other democratic nations. It would be far from the understanding of democracy.

The Ukraine belongs with the new or the old president to one of the most corrupt nations worldwide, its still an Oligarch state and this will take quiete a while to change it into a form of democracy you see in other countries. But we all wish you of course much luck and hope with your country.

[vilas 473]

oxmox - maybe yes, maybe US / CIA also helped people who wanted to get rid of corrupted government, but as you live (if i remember correctly) in Germany or UK you do not know our reality , so i have to explain to you about 1989 in our countries here (post soviet, post commie countries) , sorry to repeat about history,

in 1989-1991 communism fallen according to history , but it is not valid statement that commies disappeared,

people from secret services or commie party just changed form of rule,

previously they were not voted but had power, now too,

how ?

you elect government, you elect members of parliament,

but you do not elect directors, judges, prosecutors, policemen

those commies changed suits, they became businesmen (they were ONLY people that had money when commie fallen, as result they and their kids are now busines leaders, rich persons, directors in companies, directors in ministry), children of commie judges are judges now, sons of police offciers in commie era are now police officers too

those people were not executed, not disappearance, they still are alive and their families keep power , they keep media, they keep business, they keep banks, they keep police, they keep courts

thats why in our revolutions sometimes CIA help is needed to really establish free market, cause how you can say about free market when few kids of commies hold big percent of business ?

if you think of our countries (especially post-USSR) as "you have freedom since 25 years" than you are wrong,

we can elect member of parliament, he can make law in Parliament but this law is executed by ... judge (corporation), policeman (called family company) , you can elect minister of economy, but business is kept by guy who was in commie intel service, so ministry of economy will will not be effective cause business will decide other way, this is all fasade, rotting inside,

i regret in 1989 we did not had civil war with blood and executions of commies,

because with peaceful change - all those families still keep rule,

thats why maybe there was US CIA influence in Ukraine too , cause truth is harsh - many KGB agents still are in rule and they are NOT loyal to our countries, they are loyal to Kremlin style (corruption, nepotism, clique of "old days friends keeping together"),

Oxmox - judge which was young lady in 1982 when she was sentencing my mother for being in Solidarity, 2 years ago was vice-chairman in one Polish court , she was not fired from job in 1989, she was avanced and now her sons/daughters are also judges and in 2003 the same judge was making problems to my mother too when she sued one person who... in 1983 was commie agent (now businessman) , of course my mom failed in court in financial case (civil case about business)

i also lost few court cases including never paid money for job in 2003, why ? also this owner of company was ex commie army major in political unit, later he was boss of printing house, i was 3d-graphician in this printing house and webmaster and warehouse keeper, and he didn't pay me and when i sued him, court was twisting facts and dismissed my case,

how it is possible that you make www of company, you make some repair-job visualisation, you spent some weeks in company and they not pay you and court doesn't want to take security company journal with data about me entering company doors ? but court stated that i was never in that company and i not made that jobs, even security company wanted to help me and give data of entering building as proof that i was in that printing house doing jobs, but court not wanted this data, later i found that owner of company is ex commie major (officer) of army and he was serving in political unit before 1989 ,

what trust do i have to system in which guys who are retired commie serviceman always win in courts ?

i know case when son of prosecutor driven over teenager on the street in 2012, and we have end of 2014 and this son was not even questioned , case is frozen in prosecutor office in one town ? and i say about EU member, Poland, not Ukraine,

this needed blood to change 25 years ago, in case of Germany, administration was changed but some Stasi agents are still in power and loyal to Moscow , because in special services you never retire, this is life service till the end of life

The Ukraine had a democratic elected president isnt it, why did they throw him out with force instead vote him off in the next elections ?

because he start shooting ?

because he stole half bilion from taxes in country where army has to buy kevlar helmet themselves ?

because taxpayers have right to want to have earlier election when politicians abuse them

you cannot allow be abused 5 years if after 2 years you see serious abuses (economical and other)

It would be far from the understanding of democracy.

no

i pay taxes, politician is my servant, not i am his,

i pay him salary, i am his boss, he must obey me and follow pre-voting promisses - iN REAL democracy , like Switzerland , USA

if he screws job , we should have right to fire him for this job before he would screw state completely (you cut cancer, you do not wait till cancer will eat you showing "period contract")

he Ukraine belongs with the new or the old president to one of the most corrupt nations worldwide,

maybe this was the only way to change Ukraine ?

cause rich person has media - he will win elections because he has media - look at democratic decades of rule of mafia Berlusconi

Berlusconi was cheating people and had mafia conections, but he had media , so he was winning because his media lied

Timoshenko was also mafia, but because of money, winning

in corrupted states always rich will win, not honest but rich, because real free market, real competition would eliminate corruption and nepotism

dont compare reality where people have money from hard work of generations with reality where rich are simply thieves, in post commie countries majority of rich are simply mafia-like or ex commie intel kids

Edited September 21, 2014 by vilas

[beastcat 14]

Just a thought:

The Ukraine had a democratic elected president isnt it, why did they throw him out with force instead vote him off in the next elections ?

Imagine something like this would happen in the UK, Germany or in other democratic nations. It would be far from the understanding of democracy.

The Ukraine belongs with the new or the old president to one of the most corrupt nations worldwide, its still an Oligarch state and this will take quiete a while to change it into a form of democracy you see in other countries. But we all wish you of course much luck and hope with your country.

I don't really think that I still have to explain this, but let me leave you with some pictures of Yanukovichs residence.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10656023/In-pictures-Inside-the-palace-Yanukovych-didnt-want-Ukraine-to-see.html

[PuFu 4591]

It would still suck though...

I never said otherwise.

But since you related russian possible WWW Ban to RHS mod release, and that in more than 1 thread, i thought it'd be ok to make it clear for you that such a ban would have little to no effect, on either short or long term development.

As you have seen, i didn't comment on any other political, social or economic effects.

[Rydygier 1302]

i pay taxes, politician is my servant, not i am his,

i pay him salary, i am his boss, he must obey me and follow pre-voting promisses - iN REAL democracy , like Switzerland , USA

if he screws job , we should have right to fire him for this job before he would screw state completely (you cut cancer, you do not wait till cancer will eat you showing "period contract")

Truly. While countries east from us AFAIK have at least one reason more to be opposite. I had some opportunity to talk with people from there, don't know how common it is, but while in Poland the old tradition rooted into our mentality is do not trust the politicians/rulers nor respect them too much (that I heard from someone, that was born there, as a plea), so, as it was in the past, you may love your king, but he'll never have opportunity to be a despote accepted as such by you, just a servant, in the eastern countries, which may have much to do with Orthodox Church ways, rulers are by definition a living saints, glowing blessing send by God, mighty guides worthy of full trust and obedience, god-like patrons of the humble and grateful nation taking anything, rulers would say or decide, as indisputable wisdom. They know all the truth, they always now best where to lead, so we don't need to bother with that, we're on their responsibility, so no need to be responsible ourselves. At least such mentality tendencies I suspect, and that's why they tend so much to be ruled in authoritarian/despotic way (and oligarchy would be kind of distorted form if you try to inject democratic and capitalistic ideas there). Maybe someone from there could confirm/deny.

Edited September 21, 2014 by Rydygier

[umpo 10]

There are no democratic traditions in so called ex-USSR countries, so what do you expect?

People just get used to live in terms of poor life, anti-western propaganda, outraged by government etc.

In Ukraine now we see historical process of clearing from this awful traditions

And i should say you guys from ex-Pact countries can consider yourself as lucky, comparing to Russia where you really can go to jail or be physically destroyed for your political opinion

At least when i travelled some countries like Poland, Czech Republic and some Balkan states i have seen much less which could remind me this communist horror which was in Soviet Union

[Tonci87 163]

Corruption is widespread in eastern countries mainly because the "old elites" have managed to stay in power after the fall of communism. They were the only ones who had money. And they do all they can to stay in power. But People are also simply stupid.

In my Croatian Hometown my family has build a house. Naturally that house needs water and power, stuff you get through the mayor and his council. They were insanely corrupt. Promises were made, and of course not fullfilled. We had to play that game for year simply because we refused to pay anything to those crooks, and they refused to do anything until we paid them. Luckily that clique took things too far and they lost the next election to a honest man that was not in any party.

The first thing he did was to throw out the whole council and replace it with professionals.

So my father went to that new Mayor and that man was shocked to hear that our house (we live in Germany, so it was not that harmfull to us) was without water and power so many years after it had been completed and that nothing had been done to advance the case. The whole thing was resolved and both water and power were installed within a month.

But people are stupid.

That honest mayor lost the next election because the other candidate promised to lower the price for legalising houses (a lot of houses didn´t have proper legalisation), and because of an expensive add campaign by his party (something the guy without a party couldn´t match). Now the new mayor has again a clique of corrupt asswipes by his side and his doing his best to empty the towns bank accounts that his predecessor filled up as fast as possible. The people are now sorry that they voted for him.

But Corruption isn´t exclusive to eastern countries.

You can find it in western countries too, in Germany for example.

I got hit by a car while I was driving my mountainbike to work. The Driver had ignored a red light. No witnesses could be found. He called the police and the ambulance. While the doctors were busy with me on the ground he talked to the police and told them that I had crossed the red light instead of him. That happened on a thursday. I had to stay in hospital. On Saturday my roommate discovered that the police (not a single police officer has talked to me until that point) had issued a press statement about the crash, claiming that I was responsible. Quite angry I called the police and insisted to speak with the responsible officer. I asked him how they could write such BS without even talking to me. He literally said that my testimony is not needed, that the one they have from the car driver is enough and that they will file criminal charges against me. I was furious. After I had said things to him I never thought I would say to a police officer he told me that I can send in my testimony.

I consulted my lawyer and then we discovered that the car driver was some town official wich explained the whole thing. The police had to drop all charges against me and I dragged that car driver to court. I´m not too popular with his insurance right now ;)

[beastcat 14]

I never said otherwise.

But since you related russian possible WWW Ban to RHS mod release, and that in more than 1 thread, i thought it'd be ok to make it clear for you that such a ban would have little to no effect, on either short or long term development.

As you have seen, i didn't comment on any other political, social or economic effects.

Well yeah, it was meant more as a joke, but still thanks for letting me know. I guess I can turn down my panic. :D

[oxmox 73]

The Ukraine had a democratic elected president isnt it, why did they throw him out with force instead vote him off in the next elections ?

because he start shooting ?

because he stole half bilion from taxes in country where army has to buy kevlar helmet themselves ?

because taxpayers have right to want to have earlier election when politicians abuse them

you cannot allow be abused 5 years if after 2 years you see serious abuses (economical and other)

It would be far from the understanding of democracy.

no

i pay him salary, i am his boss, he must obey me and follow pre-voting promisses - iN REAL democracy , like Switzerland , USA

if he screws job , we should have right to fire him for this job before he would screw state completely (you cut cancer, you do not wait till cancer will eat you showing "period contract")

he Ukraine belongs with the new or the old president to one of the most corrupt nations worldwide,

maybe this was the only way to change Ukraine ?

cause rich person has media - he will win elections because he has media - look at democratic decades of rule of mafia Berlusconi

Berlusconi was cheating people and had mafia conections, but he had media , so he was winning because his media lied

in corrupted states always rich will win, not honest but rich, because real free market, real competition would eliminate corruption and nepotism

I have not heard much about the investigations on the maidan shootings, the last was a phone talk in which EU politicans (I think from Skandinavia) were talking about that it is highly possible that none government forces did actually did the shootings. Maybe you guys know something new which supports the claims.

A president which is in a none sustainable position in a democracy, at least in ours, has to do a vote of no confidence. He can opted out but not with a coup de etat, there would be early elections and investigations. Of course i dont shed tear over someone who is just corrupt and the maidan situation was in an exceptional state. The new president Poroshenko is comming from the same party like the last one, he is one of the biggest Oligarchs in the Ukraine.

i pay taxes, politician is my servant, not i am his,

You need to start some kind of VILAS Kingdom, to find such ideals ...hehe.

It is hard to find this in the type of democracy we have.

Switzerland belongs to the most advanced democracies this is true, interestingly their own elite Universities in the USA describe the US not anymore as a true democracy, its allegedly an oligarchy. Just as a side info with a link to an interesting study.

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746

And about your last comment without beeing blinded by prejudice we should know, the new elected president is not a newcommer since he is from the same party like his deprived predecessor, he was the director of the National Bank and he was foreign minister under Yushchenko. He was already minister for economic affairs under the last president Victor Yanukovych. Interestingly, Poroshenko was 1998 in the cabinet of the Social Democratic Party Ukraine (SDPU), the head of the party was Kuchma and was elected as president in 1999. The SDPU took a strong position against the orange revolution in 2004.

Poroshenko the so called chocolate Tycoon is only number 7 in the Forbes list of the big Oligarchs in the Ukraine and he owns the Channel 5 TV station besides other investments into the arm industry, agriculture/seed industry, shipbuilding, car industry and more. But the truly powerful Oligarchs in the Ukraine are the first 3 ones.

Edited September 21, 2014 by oxmox

[mistyronin 1181]

The Ukraine had a democratic elected president isnt it, why did they throw him out with force instead vote him off in the next elections ?

That's absolutely not true. In fact it's precisely the opposite.

Modern democracy is based in the the balance of three independent powers ( Legislative, Executive and Judiciary ). Each of the powers has different control measures to ensure the good work of the democracy.

Parliament should be able to throw the president before the next elections in extreme cases. After all the parliament represents the people; and Yanukovich simply ignored the majority of people and even acted against them ( committing certain crimes ).

Imagine something like this would happen in the UK, Germany or in other democratic nations. It would be far from the understanding of democracy

Well, one of the best democratic countries, at least it's system, it's the US, and there not that far away the parliament started a vote to throw the president for his sexual affairs.

BTW that can happen in UK, in Germany, and also in a lot of other nations. Check this: Impeachment

The Federal President of Germany can be impeached both by the Bundestag and by the Bundesrat for willfully violating Federal law. Once the Bundestag or the Bundesrat impeaches the president, the Federal Constitutional Court decides whether the President is guilty as charged and, if this is the case, whether to remove him or her from office. No such case has yet occurred, not the least because the President's functions are mostly ceremonial and they seldom make controversial decisions. The Federal Constitutional Court also has the power to remove federal judges from office for willfully violating core principles of the federal constitution or a state constitution.

Some countries can even do that directly with a popular vote like Liechtenstein:

The Prince can be disposed by the popular vote. Since 2003, the constitution provides for the recall of the Prince by a referendum.

Also check: Motion of no confidence

Concluding, it's not only democratic, but one of the most democratic measures the right of the people ( being directly or by parliament proxy ) to remove the president before the end of the term in certain occasions.

Edited September 21, 2014 by MistyRonin

[beastcat 14]

I have not heard much about the investigations on the maidan shootings, the last was a phone talk in which EU politicans (I think from Skandinavia) were talking about that it is highly possible that none government forces did actually did the shootings. Maybe you guys know something new which supports the claims.

The official story is that the shooting was done by the SBU Alfa Group under the command of Oleksandr Yakymenko (Who has said on russian TV after fleeing there, that it was FBI/CIA agents who have done the shooting), who was under command of Janukovich who gave the orders on the 20 February. This has also been confirmed by the SBU and Berkut. So far only about 10 people have been arrested and the rest of the group have fled to Russia, where they continue their work and enjoy free residences.

Edited September 21, 2014 by beastcat

[oxmox 73]

edit deleted

Edited September 21, 2014 by oxmox

[mistyronin 1181]

oxmox you used the reply with quote option by accident instead of edit post, hence you have made a double post.

( it has happened to me before too :) )

BTW check my upper post.

[oxmox 73]

oxmox you used the reply with quote option by accident instead of edit post, hence you have made a double post.

( it has happened to me before too :) )

BTW check my upper post.

thank you , something went wrong. :bounce3:

check my post above yours aswell, since it contains actually thoughts to your own post.

Edited September 21, 2014 by oxmox

[.kju 3239]

@ oxmox

Search for "MONITOR - Scharfschützen in Kiew" as a baseline

However no real idea what happened since. Hard to really get an idea without known Ukraine and Russian language to follow various closer sources.

[beastcat 14]

Trident 2014

Moscow today:

http://youtu.be/wEdyMd-RSHI

Sankt Petersburg:

Edited September 21, 2014 by beastcat

[ProfTournesol 956]

Moscow today

Yup :

(BBC) Ukraine crisis: Thousands march in Moscow anti-war rally

People are chanting "No to war!" and "Stop lying!" Similar rallies are taking place in St Petersburg and other Russian cities.

This warms my heart. RT isn't brainwashing everybody in Russia :)

Edited September 21, 2014 by ProfTournesol

[Rydygier 1302]

http://wiadomosci.wp.pl/kat,1356,title,Michail-Chodorkowski-przerywa-polityczne-milczenie-i-rzuca-wyzwanie-Putinowi,wid,16899765,wiadomosc.html?ticaid=1137cb

Mikhail Khodorkovsky breaks the silence and political challenges to Vladimir Putin. As reported by AFP, the former oligarch and fierce critic of the Kremlin launched a network platform "Open Russia", whose mission is to unite all pro-European oriented Russians in order to retract Putin from power. In an interview with the German weekly "Der Spiegel" Khodorkovsky said even that the longer Putin remains in power in Russia, the more likely it is a national uprising threatened bloodshed.

- A minority will be influential if it is organized - said Khodorkovsky during a televised via the internet starting a new initiative. He stressed that the new movement is not a political party, but a project that brings together like-minded people.

According to AFP, it seems that the same were oligarch has broken a promise made in December, just after the pardon him by the host Kremlin that it will not engage politically. Although claims, quoted by the French daily "Le Monde" that it is not interested in the presidency, insists he is ready to take part in necessary "to overcome the crisis and carry out constitutional reforms, which will redistribute the essence of presidential power to the judiciary, parliament and civil society ".

[oxmox 73]

In the Shadow of Sanctions: The Big Oil Business with Russia (Monitor 11th September 2014)

Everyone talks about sanctions against russia, but parts of the "7 Sisters" are doing big business with Russia, even smaller companies. The reality about so called sanctions looks different again for Westeurope, we remember well the truth about sanctions against Iran.

Probably some did already hear about the "7 Sisters", if not check these links and the movie. Very interesting documentary:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Sisters_%28oil_companies%29

Anyway, Monitor a critical TV broadcast on the main channel was reporting the following a while ago......

On the 12th September 2014, the new sanctions against Russia did start. Especially energy companies like GazProm and Rosneft are the target.

--> "Europe should show strength against Russia in their politics - as quick as possible and efficient"

But behind such harsh words not much substance is left. In the meanwhile european governments blow in their horn with bloated cheeks, big Oil & Gas corporations create precedents. One deal after deal between Russia and corporations is going on without much hesitation, also some companies from Germany are into business.

All right ! Its a multi-billion business. Who cares anyway about the middle class !?

Who cares about smaller companies who suffer from the sanctions.

Shell, Exxon, BP, even Wintershell....energy multis are doing big business currently in Russia.

The companies who suffer the most in the West because of the sanctions is the: Middle Class.

Barrack Obama: A new decree allows not only sanctions agains individual persons, but also against individual key areas of Russia.

--> Big words. Only several days later France did sign a contract between the Energy giant TOTAL and russian LUKOIL. The contract is about gigantic shale oil ressources in west sibiria, an area of shale oil with around 2700 square miles in size.

--> One day later, the corporation BRITISH PETROL (BP) close a deal with the russian state owned company ROSFIT. Only the first phase of it is about $300 million.

Do you know who signs the contract ? --> Igor Sechin - which is one of the russians who are on the SANCTION LIST against russia. It is not allowed for him to travel inside the

USA, but at least he can do multi-billion deals with them.

In May this year, Exxon Mobile an US giant in the Oil & Gas sector did make a megadeal with russia. The contract is about oil drilling in the arctic sea.

---> The EU will sanction the needed special technology only months later, ..of course.

In other words: Sanctions against Russia remind on a Swiss Cheese with all the holes in it. When you want to fit through the holes, you need to be a huge company and not a small one.

Sigmar Gabriel (german Minister of Economic Affairs): It is hugely important that the sanctions meet those who are supporting the russian politics and the government. These are the Oligarchs which have their properties and bank accounts in cities of whole Europe.

--> But Gabriel offers such Oligarchs a big deal. An example is Michail Fridman from LetterOne. After all the energy corporations did sign contracts, the german company

RWE gets the permission from the Minister of Economic Affairs. The deal is about more Oil licences in Russia: volume around €5.1 billion (Euro).

Another mega deal within the hot phase of sanctions.

For any middle class company who is affected by the sanctions these stories sound of course incomprehensible, the big companies and Oil & Gas corporations are into huge multi-billion contracts wheras the middle class has to fight to be able to maintain jobs.

By the way, Russia did announce to counter with own sanctions against west europe. Who knows whom will benefit this or harm.

I think I will going to make a sandwich now with Swiss Cheese and many holes in it.........hope you had a laugh reading this all.

Here is the source text and a video about the TV report:

http://www1.wdr.de/daserste/monitor/sendungen/oelkonzerne102.html

Edited September 21, 2014 by oxmox

[mistyronin 1181]

It was no secret that the sanctions are just a cheap trick to show that they are doing something.

No one wants to lose the big business opportunities, and the big companies wouldn't allow the Western Govs make them lose huge amount of money, no matter if that enables Putin expansionism.

[Sgt.Spoetnik 10]

big business

thats the key in every thing, they(the west and the rest)are so addicted to money they will kill anything ,and manipulate every thing to get more. not to mention lie and BS to their ppl to get more and get more from its citizen!

@Oxmox-great stuff and truth you say;glad to see some are awake ;)

[oxmox 73]

It was no secret that the sanctions are just a cheap trick to show that they are doing something.

No one wants to lose the big business opportunities, and the big companies wouldn't allow the Western Govs make them lose huge amount of money, no matter if that enables Putin expansionism.

Talking about sanctions and doing business by their own, you see how hypocritical are these and the middle class gets shown the finger only. Reminds on the Iran sanctions where the US was criticizing european companies doing business with them and after a while such middle class companies did struggle or even went bankrupt because they did take hits. Months later you saw a documentary about the Iran and some german journlists did uncover that the US itself did do business with Iran, very famous companies i.e. Caterpillar, Pepsi or/and Coca-Cola, famous brands for computer technology and so on everything "on tape" filmed directly in Iran with a hidden camera.... Of course the Oil corporations could not do it in Iran, maybe we have to wait for the next regime change in this theater. Btw in the world wars it was not much different, in ww1 Standard Oil was selling to the allies and axis petrol for a while during the war...no one wants to loose business, but "noone" are only choosen ones.

Anyway, you see how the media and politcians are telling this and that and at the end its just hot air.

Edited September 21, 2014 by oxmox