Ukraine General

[sudayev 27]

general problem, not solid society is having diferent goals which sometimes are hard to compromise together, especially when one side enforces on other side, less differences = less reasons to conflicts = common goal

Not entirely. Depends who's pushing from the outside, who's sending agents to stir up the pot in order to crack it etc etc... It requires a higher level of personal culture and civic experience to coexist peacefully with people with different backgrounds and pursue the same goal within "framework" we call country.

[vilas 473]

once again you give example of Swedish and Finnish people, they both are not so different with life philosophy, so let me give you extreme example:

how you see compromise in such hypotetical situation:

- pedophile raped my kid or killed my kid, i took gun and shot him because my kid deserve it,

- EU court want to put me to jail for life for murder,

- local population say i am hero, defender, i should get a medal (in USA i would be free probably especially if it was on my property haha, in Russia too, in Arab country they would give me medal)

how you compromise this ? as example of 2 different life philosophies (eastern vs western, in west you see revenge as something bad, in east we see revenge as moral justified and more to east even as matter of honor)

? what compromise you propose ? i wonder how you see such 2 different life philosophies compromise ?

in Poland after joining EU we have several such situation for real, it is not example from Moon or Mars, before 1989 noone would care, now i know examples of several people with sentence like 25 or 30 or life for it ,

http://www.fakt.pl/pedofil-zabil-moja-corke-teraz-grozi-mi-smiercia-,artykuly,452136,1.html

this pedophile for killing 6 years old girl get 15 years, now he threatens mother of that girl (he is free already after 15 years)

i can give link to man who get 10 years more for killing pedophile who raped his daughter (also 6 years old as i remember)

how you see compromise ?

in Texas first guy would get death, second guy would start for Sheriff in next elections

it is difference between Eastern and Western point of view - similar to those who are for or against EU in UA

Edited May 3, 2014 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

once again you give example of Swedish and Finnish people, they both are not so different with life philosophy

I'm afraid you know nothing about Swedish and Finnish. Swedish culture may be similar to Norwegians and Danish ( Scandinavian ), but not even a chance of Finnish. Finnish way of life is close to Russian ( more eastern Europe ), but more introvert and less respectful.

Swedish are more like teletubbies; are respectful, tolerant, open, helpful, love to travel, social ( fika! ), obsessed about fashion and how they look, more democratic, want to know about other cultures, travel a lot. Had build an Empire, traded with all Europe, had lots of immigration for centuries.

While Finnish are cold, love to be alone, intolerant, close minded, pragmatic, more authoritarian. Have always remained in their place, never mixed with anyone else ( they don't want either ), don't care about other cultures, only travel inside Finland.

The only things that are similar is that both love coffee and ice-hockey.

BTW if you ever come to Finland never say anything like that, here Swedish is considered the worst of the insults ( its even better if they call you somalian or whatever ); and can get you in a barfight.

A soft example, but you'll get the point:

( Yle ) Many Finns admit not stepping in to stop racist abuse

Many respondents described watching disturbing scenes where children of foreign backgrounds were the victims of discrimination in public.

One said: "A middle-aged man on the bus was shouting at two dark-skinned children to shut up, ranting that Somalis were always too loud, just like Swedish-speaking Finns. I didn’t dare get involved, because he seemed aggressive – but I felt very bad about the whole thing afterwards.â€

Edited May 3, 2014 by MistyRonin

[spooky lynx 73]

Note that still Yatsenyuk hadn't signed economic part of EU association treaty. Only political one. One of the main things that Yanuk was blamed for is irrelevant now, strange, isn't it? And nobody tries to blame junta for it. Everybody act like "calm down and carry on".

And what makes me laugh is that most furious and agressive Ukrainian patriots and nationalists come from either Galichina (which was added to Ukraine only in 1939 thanks to blamed bloody Commies, being either Polish or Austria-Hungarian territory) or Canada.

Speaking about dialog and compropise - impossible, unfortunately. When those gathered at maidan assumed right to decide what parties to rule, what path to go instead of referendum in all country - what dialog are you speaking about? All attempts of talk about overall referendum about signing EU association treaty were rejected. None of impeachment attempts were even made. So none of civilised ways of solving the problems were used. Only unrests, illegal demonstrations, seize of the territory and coup as final. I suppose the country with such methods of solving state problems (a-la Africa or Latin America in middle of 20th century) is not welcomed in EU (which is shown by its officials rejecting possibility of joining in recent future).

Edited May 3, 2014 by Spooky Lynx

[vilas 473]

All attempts of talk about overall referendum about signing EU association treaty were rejected.

so they will not have refferendum, but Timoshenko party gonna decide about signing treaties ? (like now our gov. says about signing EURO while majority is against EURO)

[mistyronin 1181]

[exe_74rus 1]

once again you give example of Swedish and Finnish people, they both are not so different with life philosophy, so let me give you extreme example:

how you see compromise in such hypotetical situation:

- pedophile raped my kid or killed my kid, i took gun and shot him because my kid deserve it,

- EU court want to put me to jail for life for murder,

- local population say i am hero, defender, i should get a medal (in USA i would be free probably especially if it was on my property haha, in Russia too, in Arab country they would give me medal)

how you compromise this ? as example of 2 different life philosophies (eastern vs western, in west you see revenge as something bad, in east we see revenge as moral justified and more to east even as matter of honor)

? what compromise you propose ? i wonder how you see such 2 different life philosophies compromise ?

in Poland after joining EU we have several such situation for real, it is not example from Moon or Mars, before 1989 noone would care, now i know examples of several people with sentence like 25 or 30 or life for it ,

http://www.fakt.pl/pedofil-zabil-moja-corke-teraz-grozi-mi-smiercia-,artykuly,452136,1.html

this pedophile for killing 6 years old girl get 15 years, now he threatens mother of that girl (he is free already after 15 years)

i can give link to man who get 10 years more for killing pedophile who raped his daughter (also 6 years old as i remember)

how you see compromise ?

in Texas first guy would get death, second guy would start for Sheriff in next elections

it is difference between Eastern and Western point of view - similar to those who are for or against EU in UA

As we know Russia with president Putin is a country always supporting all kinds of freedom movements, democratic initiatives and ethnic minorities as well - tolerates and encourages other peoples sticking Russian flags over buildings in other countries, but when someone decides do to the same thing in Russia face severe charges.

Some people have placed German flag over Russian office building, now they are facing seven years for hooliganism and related crime.

http://belsat.eu/pl/wiadomosci/a,19539,nawet-7-lat-za-wiezienia-za-wywieszenie-niemieckiej-flagi-w-kaliningradzie.html (pl)

http://kaliningradfirst.ru/?p=173536

Talking about Ukraine, it is not necessary to involve the Russian Federation here.

Why in Kiev can walk with the EU flag and the flag of the Russian Federation to the east it is impossible?

[negah 26]

Talking about Ukraine, it is not necessary to involve the Russian Federation here.

Why in Kiev can walk with the EU flag and the flag of the Russian Federation to the east it is impossible?

Because Russia is bad of course, and everyone who supports Russia is utterly wrong. And whatever evil happens in this world, Russia/Putin is always to blame for it.

That murdering of people in Odessa was also one of Putins evil plans and the order to attack came also directly from him.

And the right sector nazis are also Putins secret forces, because the pro western "government" of the Ukraine would never ally themselves with nazis. Svoboda party is just Putin lies, they dont exist and are not part of UA "government".

Edited May 4, 2014 by negah

[spooky lynx 73]

so they will not have refferendum, but Timoshenko party gonna decide about signing treaties ? (like now our gov. says about signing EURO while majority is against EURO)

Even Yanuk's administration offered referendum about EU treaty. But maidan said "Feck you, we are Yurrop!!!11" despite the fact it represented (according to maidan parties) no more than 1,25% of Ukrainian population. So yes, nobody cared about real opinion of the whole Ukrainian population.

BTW some interesting photo from Nikovaey. Another polite men?

http://upload.comapping.com/13991492552251 (362 kB)

[negah 26]

Even Yanuk's administration offered referendum about EU treaty. But maidan said "Feck you, we are Yurrop!!!11" despite the fact it represented (according to maidan parties) no more than 1,25% of Ukrainian population. So yes, nobody cared about real opinion of the whole Ukrainian population.

BTW some interesting photo from Nikovaey. Another polite men?

http://upload.comapping.com/13991492552251 (362 kB)

Must be some OSCE observers again, of whom OSCE dont know themselves.

BTW, the German soldiers who were kept hostage by the separatists returned to Germany yesterday.

Its pretty funny how they are still described as OSCE observers by the German media despite OSCE official telling that they arent.

The more you tell something, the more people believe it I guess.

[Rydygier 1302]

Found amongst today's news some commentaries about this:

http://www.tvp.info/15052815/za-porwaniem-obserwatorow-obwe-stala-rosja-sa-nagrania-rozmow-lukina

Moscow coordinated the kidnapping of the OSCE - Ukrainians believe. Proof of this is a video overheard a telephone conversation between Vladimir Lukin, the Kremlin's special envoy, and Igor Streilkov, commander of the pro-Russian self-defense, which, according to the Ukrainians is an officer of the Russian military intelligence.

From overheard conversations follows, that releasing of Western observers has been agreed with Streilkov before the Kremlin envoy, who had this to negotiate, came to Ukraine.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Must be some OSCE observers again, of whom OSCE dont know themselves.

BTW, the German soldiers who were kept hostage by the separatists returned to Germany yesterday.

Its pretty funny how they are still described as OSCE observers by the German media despite OSCE official telling that they arent.

The more you tell something, the more people believe it I guess.

Because they are observers invited by the Ukrainian governement under OSCE Vienna document :

Source : OSCE website (http://www.osce.org/node/115850/)

The Special Monitoring Mission got confirmation that the military observers carrying out an inspection under the OSCE Vienna Document had been taken captive by forces of the self-proclaimed mayor of Sloviansk

Military verification

Ukraine requested OSCE participating States, OSCE partners for co-operation and the OSCE Conflict Prevention Centre (CPC) to send their representatives from 5 to 12 March 2014, invoking Chapter III of the Vienna Document 2011 which allows for voluntary hosting of visits to dispel concerns about unusual military activities.

A continuation of verification visit was later requested by Ukraine until 20 March 2014, this time to cover the south and east of the country.

During the three visits, thirty OSCE pS sent 56 unarmed military and civilian personnel to Ukraine. The group attempted to visit Crimea several times, but was unable to move beyond checkpoints at the administrative border, however, based on the observations made of the military activity the group stated that it is not able to dispel military concerns in Crimea.

These visits under the Chapter III of Vienna Document 2011 are one of the key elements of the OSCE approach to security, which seeks to foster openness and transparency as the best way to resolve conflicts.

Another group of eight unarmed military experts from individual OSCE participating States has been on the ground in Ukraine since 19 March until now working under the invitation of Ukraine.The experts are on the ground under the Chapter III of the Vienna Document on risk reduction. They look at military aspects of the security situation.

[mistyronin 1181]

Must be some OSCE observers again, of whom OSCE dont know themselves.

BTW, the German soldiers who were kept hostage by the separatists returned to Germany yesterday.

Its pretty funny how they are still described as OSCE observers by the German media despite OSCE official telling that they arent.

The more you tell something, the more people believe it I guess.

Yeah that's why the OSCE even makes special statements in their website and also publish it as a news. But yeah I guess the OSCE is lying too..

( OSCE official website ) Statement on behalf of OSCE Chief Monitor in Ukraine Ertugrul Apakan

Also the most propagandistic of all Kremlin media keeps calling them OSCE observers:

( RT ) OSCE observers released in Slavyansk arrive in Berlin

It's an internacional conspiracy that makes everyone call them OSCE observers, but they are not :rolleyes:

EDIT: Prof. Tournesol you are a party popper, you have published first.

Talking about Ukraine, it is not necessary to involve the Russian Federation here.

Why in Kiev can walk with the EU flag and the flag of the Russian Federation to the east it is impossible?

For one side you are comparing apples and AKs. The Russian Federation is a country, and the EU is a supranational entity ( ergo an association of countries ).

So it's not the same to ask that your country to join an association of countries, than to ask that your country to be invaded by another.

And the Russia Federation must be involved because the pro-Russian violent insurgents say that they fight to join the Russian Federation. It's their main goal. Besides that they use Russian flags.

As Putin hasn't complain about that, means that he implicitly supports them.

---------- Post added at 11:20 ---------- Previous post was at 11:07 ----------

( RT ) Ukrainian army attacks eastern cities of Mariupol, Konstantinovka

The Ukrainian military has started an operation against pro-autonomy activists in the city of Mariupol, southeastern Ukraine, as well as the town of Konstantinovka, according to local self-defense activists.

The troops have moved into Mariupol and have surrounded an administrative building held by anti-government protesters. The protesters have set up barricades and are burning tires

Edited May 4, 2014 by MistyRonin

[spooky lynx 73]

So, according to such logic, if insurgents commiting unlawful actions and toppling elected president wave EU flags and meet EU officials, it means EU supports Ukrainian coup, yes?

[ProfTournesol 956]

EU is unable to sustain any revolution anywhere, it has no military or secret services, and probably not much interest to see Ukraine join them.

For Russian, that's the exact opposite.

[mistyronin 1181]

So, according to such logic, if insurgents commiting unlawful actions and toppling elected president wave EU flags and meet EU officials, it means EU supports Ukrainian coup, yes?

The elected president was thrown by the 73% of the legit parliament of Ukraine elected in 2012. Obviously the Maidan killings made by Yanukovich police influenced the measure. After all, that's why there are different powers in a democracy ( Legislative, Executive and Judicial ).

Also obviously EU has given support to Maidan protests, but not the violence, which them condemn. As has been said by EU main leaders a lot of times.

While Putin has not made any declaration condemning violence, sometimes even praised them.

---------- Post added at 11:35 ---------- Previous post was at 11:31 ----------

Meanwhile:

( RT ) Troops seize TV center in Slavyansk, eastern Ukraine - interior ministry

BTW I don't know how many TV centers and stations are in Slaviansk, but everyday they are seizing new ones...

[negah 26]

The elected president was thrown by the 73% of the legit parliament of Ukraine elected in 2012. Obviously the Maidan killings made by Yanukovich police influenced the measure. After all, that's why there are different powers in a democracy ( Legislative, Executive and Judicial ).

Also obviously EU has given support to Maidan protests, but not the violence, which them condemn. As has been said by EU main leaders a lot of times.

While Putin has not made any declaration condemning violence, sometimes even praised them.

Soooo sure that it was Yanukovich who ordered the maidan killings? Yes he was corrupt as every other politician in UA (and pretty much anywhere in the world), but his fault was apparently not reacting much earlier and more decisive to maidan protests.

It was not in his interest to further escalate the situation, and absolutely not in his interest to kill his own policemen.

Over here in oh so democratic Germany if it comes to some protests they are quickly dissolved by our police, some people lose eyes due to water cannons and afterwards everything is peaceful again.

Regarding the OSCE, last time I checked Russia was member of OSCE, so why there were only members of NATO countries and UA soldiers among those "OSCE" observers while Russia would be clearly interested to take part in such mission.

Besides in the OSCE site they say they are glad that military observers got free, still not mentioning they were their military observers.

And NATO already send their military personell to gather information in Kosovo using OSCE cover.

Edited May 4, 2014 by negah

[ProfTournesol 956]

Soooo sure that it was Yanukovich who ordered the maidan killings? Yes he was corrupt as every other politician in UA (and pretty much anywhere in the world), but his fault was apparently not reacting much earlier and more decisive to maidan protests.

It was not in his interest to further escalate the situation, and absolutely not in his interest to kill his own policemen.

What does that mean ? People were killed of both sides, policemen and protesters.

[mistyronin 1181]

It was not in his interest to further escalate the situation, and absolutely not in his interest to kill his own policemen.

Over here in oh so democratic Germany if it comes to some protests they are quickly dissolved by our police, some people lose eyes due to water cannons and afterwards everything is peaceful again.

In all EU countries there have been protests, even some really close to Maidan like in Spain where the 15M Movement camped in Madrid and Barcelona main squares among other cities to ask for a change in the Gov.

The Gov. decided to crash the protest after some months, like in Ukraine, the protesters used stones and sticks and Molotov cocktails, like in Ukraine. But did the Spanish Police used assault rifles? :rolleyes:

That's the difference between Yanukovich police and the rest of Europe. He took a bad decision due to desperation. Which escalated to all what we have today, with some Russian intervention obviously,

Regarding the OSCE, last time I checked Russia was member of OSCE, so why there were only members of NATO countries and UA soldiers among those "OSCE" observers.

OSCE can send who ever they feel better, Russia as a member takes part on that decision. And BTW were well informed, recognized even by the Russian representative in the OSCE.

Edited May 4, 2014 by MistyRonin

[vilas 473]

EU is unable to sustain any revolution anywhere, it has no military or secret services, and probably not much interest to see Ukraine join them.

For Russian, that's the exact opposite.

cheap labour, keeping your own citizens under pression of loose job, you live in France, let me offtop and tell you how bosses behave in Poland :

"na twoje miejsce jest dziesięciu" < it is popular phrase "for your seat (employment) waits ten (unemployed)"

now people in Poland hear it when they demand salary raise " i will go to local administration and ask permission to get few Ukrainians" , in Carrefour in Warsaw (near my house) i hear Ukrainian language, they work in Carrefour, why ? cause they agreed on salary that for Pole would be not acceptable due to cost of living in big city (but they hire 1 room for 3 persons and live 3-4 in one room, they don't ask for Holidays in Roma like me, they don't ask for PC with i7 and Nvidia GTX680 etc. they ask for place to hide before rain)

guess who works on Polish building sites (building houses, buildings) ? guess who ? Ukrainians ? cause when Polish worker says "i want 1000 euro" boss fire him, cause Ukrainian will take 300 Euro, so Polish worker goes to UK and build houses in London ,

you know what gonna happen ? than Frenchman will hear the same "on your place i have ten people waiting"

than boss pay you less

for saved money greed evil boss buys Ferrari, Bugatti, Masserati, Bentley, Lexus

now your boss has to pay you, cause if he would cut your salary per half you would go away and none French would come to your place

but when 5 milions of Ukrainians would enter EU, than your boss CAN cut YOURS salary and for saved money buy luxury limousine, luxury sport car, order 2 beautifull 18y.o. young "ladies" , can buy golden WC, because he paid you half

so yes, managers in EU, onwers of corporation DREAM about having Ukraine in UE as far as possible and do all to make it true (maybe they ordered snipers? )

another thing - market and standards

Russian zone, Ukraine uses GOST standars,

EU uses ISO, IEC- , EN-xxx etc.

to have product in EU it must meet requirements of directives , as low voltage, as machine safety, as weighing instruments, as electromagnetic suscibility and electromagnetic transistence field (all EN-61000...) etc.

machine must have classes according to stadards etc. must be certified by Notified Body under provinsions of given directive (my previous job, so i know what i am talking about because i was certifying some machines after Poland entered EU and producers had big problems and some bankrupted cause they couldn't sell or couldn't meet EU standards even due to cost of certification )

get CE marking etc.

they won't do it fast, so they have to change their machines, so EU (Germany, France, The Netherlands etc. ) can sell a lot of machines, equipment etc.

plus

Ukraine has OLIGARCHY as you know, those Oligarchs want to save "their" stolen MONEY , a lot of money , that Putin would control (in Russia oligarch is not god-like, in Russia Putin can jail oligarch if oligarch disobey)

in Ukraine Oligarch is GOD-like creature, he can kill, he can rape, he corrupt administration - noone dare to touch him,

Right Sector want to cut Oligarchy and corruption and put these thieves to jail

so Oligarch also DREAM about having Ua in EU and get rid of "nazis" cause ... nazis are not corrupted (maybe yet),

e. But did the Spanish Police used assault rifles?

dear friend - i do not believe that Yanuk ordered those snipers, must have been:

- one of oligarchs who wanted to get rid of Yanuk (very possible)

- pro-Putin-side to take Crimea, maybe mad pro-Russian FSB-like GRU-like agent who wanted destabilize Ukraine and did "favour" to Putin or vice versa like said here CIA agent to change pro-Rusisan elected gov. to make problems for Russia and EU and sell more weapons cause now Lithuania, Poland, Latvia are starving to get money to arm better vs. Russian possible threat (not much voted option, but also option, both sides have their big interests in this region, the same USA (selling weapons cause now Poland want to buy new jest, bilions of dollars to be spend on 64 F-35 till 2030 if we will get those money from taxes) like Russia (control on industry which 3000 tanks T80 needs (Russia has 3000 T80 for which parts are produced in Ukraine, so to be independent they have now to replace it with T90 which is big money to replace all tanks you have) + Antonov plant + gas pipe control to borders of EU) ),

- Right Sector to take power in chaos cause in voting they could not(also very possible)

Edited May 4, 2014 by vilas

[spooky lynx 73]

It was shown even here how "73% of the legit parliament" vote. With piles of deputy IDs holded by one person and crowds of radicals outside and inside the building.

[mistyronin 1181]

It was shown even here how "73% of the legit parliament" vote. With piles of deputy IDs holded by one person and crowds of radicals outside and inside the building.

That's why the Ukrainian politicians that were affected have issued complains. Ah no, they don't and have had months to complain.

In fact even the Party of the Regions ( former Yanukovich party ) has said a lot of times how they condemn Yanukovich actions against the Maidan protests. :rolleyes:

From The Telegraph:

Borys Kolesnikov, the deputy head of the Party of Regions, said that Viktor Yanukovych and his inner clique would be formally purged at a conference on Saturday, where the party will debate how to mend its reputation ahead of new elections scheduled for May.

The move demonstrates how the party has sought to distance itself as much as possible from its former leader, who fled to neighbouring Russia last month. He is wanted by the new government on charges of mass murder after allegedly ordering police to open fire on opposition protesters in Kiev, killing more than 100 people.

In an interview with The Telegraph, Mr Kolesnikov said that as well as purging the Yanukovych clique from the party's ranks, the party would also be re-organised to ensure that no leader would ever again be able to monopolise power in the way he had done.

"Yanukovych and his team will be excluded from the party, they will not be members any more," Mr Kolesnikov said. "It was a great mistake that he concentrated the power in his hands, and unfortunately it led to catastrophe."

Edited May 4, 2014 by MistyRonin

[exe_74rus 1]

Where do you get ideas about children's psychology of crowds . To disperse the crowd and even armed , you need loud, bright weapons. Need to roll out a tank, shoot bursts trassermi walls of 0.5 . Need to scare the crowd , then she would run away . Who and how can scare about sniper fire during the riots ?

Right one . This none prvaitelstvo , no country in the world, do not apply to disperse the snipers. Ukrainians are not dumber points . But provocateurs from the ranks of the rebels , sniper very helpful.

Nobody in the west nepredstalyal how Ukraine is different in composition, political preferences . During this junta and paid. Now I believe Ukraine has nothing to keep from separating .

Too many differences.

[vilas 473]

nepredstalyal - was not foreseeing, was not thinking , was not suspecting ;) google translator you used exe_74rus had problem ;)

In fact even the Party of the Regions ( former Yanukovich party ) has said a lot of times how they condemn Yanukovich actions against the Maidan protests.

i was typing while you were typing, so i answered it while you was answering - i do not belive it was Yanuk, it would be against instinct of survive (knowing he is not in Africa)

[mistyronin 1181]

Where do you get ideas about children's psychology of crowds . To disperse the crowd and even armed , you need loud, bright weapons. Need to roll out a tank, shoot bursts trassermi walls of 0.5 . Need to scare the crowd , then she would run away . Who and how can scare about sniper fire during the riots ?

I could not understand much of what you said. But I have some knowledge of mass control from when I was in the military I had to work with the riot police a lot of times in common exercises to precisely control "masses".

And no, using war weapons is never an option to disperse crowds.