Ukraine General

[mistyronin 1181]

I haven't found more references, but this RT link:

( RT ) Kiev forces storm Kramatorsk, 2 soldiers killed in Slavyansk

Ukraine’s National Guard is reportedly storming the eastern town of Kramatorsk. Meanwhile, the army has resumed its special operation in Slavyansk, where two soldiers have been killed.

---------- Post added at 00:03 ---------- Previous post was at 23:24 ----------

Last update:

Dozens have been killed or injured in Kramatorsk, a doctor told RIA Novosti. The medic added that the fighting has now stopped and all of those injured have been taken to hospitals in Kramatorsk and Slavyansk. At least two died on the way to the hospital, she said.

[Tonci87 163]

New Vice Stuff (but without Simon, I think he might have left the Ukraine)

I wonder why the Ukrainian military doesn´t try to advance at night, at least then the civilians would be out of the way.

[mistyronin 1181]

I wonder why the Ukrainian military doesn´t try to advance at night, at least then the civilians would be out of the way.

Technically right now there are fights in Sloviansk surroundings.

[Rydygier 1302]

Looks like a WW2 wargame...frightening...

Yes. Question also is, if amount of Russian forces directed towards Ukraine border is proper for defending purposes (assuming, anybody sane would treat Ukrainian movements as threatening Russia with aggression, which is ridculous, the more, if we study this picture), or rather optimal for offensive, as soon crisis in Ukraine will reach "desired" point.

Some powerful men are playing their little brawl for zones of influence on the game board of Ukraine, like it was TW or HoI, while price for their ambitions is counted in blood and lives. And this price increases constantly. Future made by them for Ukraine is terrible due to amount of generated hatred and suffering and will affect other coutries too for long.

Edited May 3, 2014 by Rydygier

[arttem 1]

Last post here.

OSCE observers released In Slavyansk.

(ITAR-TASS) http://itar-tass.com/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/1163727

Vladimir Lukin transfering to the Ukraine checkpoint employees from OSCE whom was detained in Slavyansk. This was said by telephone in the interview to ITAR-TASS.

Have a nice day.

[mistyronin 1181]

OSCE observers released In Slavyansk.

That's a really good piece of news, seems that things are improving a bit inside Ukraine, sadly in the international sphere the fear of external invasion has grown.

Has been a pleasure to comment and debate the news with you ArtTem. Farewell.

- - - - -

( RT ) Moscow: Kiev and its Western sponsors provoke bloodshed, are directly responsible

The authorities in Kiev not only bear direct responsibility, but are complicit in these criminal activities. Their arms are up to the elbows in blood,†said Peskov.

Kiev’s coup-appointed government and its western allies bear full responsibility for the recent bloodshed in Ukraine, Russian presidential spokesman Dmitry Peskov has said.

I'm pretty sure he is right. It was the Kiev's Gov. ( elected by practically 3/4 of the legitimate parliament ) who invaded Crimea with the help of their western allies, then inspired and supported groups of people to take weapons and terrorize the population doing assaults in different cities... :rolleyes:

But the best, is that Ukraine Gov. should learn how the amazing Russia acted in situations like that: say Chechyna or Daguestan, or the Moscow's theater crisis or the school in Beslan...

Ringing any bells?

But all that doesn't matter now as Russia has already said that there is no peaceful solution for the situation.

---------- Post added at 11:55 ---------- Previous post was at 11:47 ----------

( RT ) 10 killed, around 30 injured in Kramatorsk overnight fighting – self-defense leader

( The Guardian ) Ukraine vows to continue operations against pro-Russian separatists

Ukraine said military operations against pro-Russian separatists in the industrial east of the country continued at dawn on Saturday near the town of Kramatorsk, vowing it would not stop a bid to dislodge them.

The interior minister, Arsen Avakov, said Ukrainian forces had seized control of a television tower in Kramatorsk, near the rebel stronghold of Slavyansk, but gave no information on possible casualties. [...]

"The active phase of the operation continued at dawn," Avakov wrote on his Facebook page. "We are not stopping."

[gunny1987 0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2c9Sgbwwu0

Green-white-red man?

He said:

"...Siamo dei fascisti...ma dai..no no" - "...We're fascists...(something like wtf)...no no"

"Sicuramente c'è stato qualche ferito" - "For sure there were some wounded"

Too much noise to understand

Journalist: "Tra di loro ci sarà stato?" "Were there wounded betweeen them?"

Answer: "Si si, sicuramente" - "Yes yes, of course"

Journalist: "Ma comunque però lo scontro c'è stato, cioè loro vi hanno sparato quando stavate arrivando" "But there were a clash between you and them. Did they fire to you when you arrived?"

Answer: "Ma qui, qui è come se fossimo in America, vengono ad aggredire (? not clear) in un altro paese e cominciano a fare delle " " But here...here is like America, they made an aggression (?) / they go to another country and they start to make...

Last words are hard to understand... it seems that he said "Torri" ...but torri is "Towers" in italian.

Another thing, he can be a mercenary but he can be an Ukrainian that he has lived in Italy too...Ukranian community in Italy is the 5th, there are 250000-500000 ukranians that live and work in Italy.

Edited May 3, 2014 by Gunny1987

[mistyronin 1181]

Another thing, he can be a mercenary but he can be an Ukrainian that he has lived in Italy too...Ukranian community in Italy is the 5th, there are 250000-500000 ukranians that live and work in Italy.

I didn't know that there were so many in Italy.

BTW I was checking Immigration data, and for example if ever Romania decides to join Putin's doctrine and invade all the countries were their ethnics are being harassed, just to point out that there are almost 1 million Romanian citizens in Italy, and another million in Spain.

PD: You got really awesome photos in your Flickr.

---------- Post added at 12:27 ---------- Previous post was at 12:26 ----------

( BBC ) Abducted OSCE observers freed

The observers are linked to the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE).

The news came as Ukraine's government said it had resumed military action to tackle the separatists in the east.

Russia says it "no longer has any influence" over Russian speakers in Ukraine..

If the last phrase it's true, IMO would mean that Russian speakers in Ukraine would put down their weapons as there is no motivation for a external invasion, and that they will keep fighting for their rights peacefully.

But I'm afraid...

Edited May 3, 2014 by MistyRonin

[vilas 473]

I didn't know that there were so many in Italy.

all eastern european countries people emigrate to west due to 5 times better salaries, labour law, health care, children care, seriously lower corruption and nepothism in west,

from Poland over 2 milions people (6% of population) emigrated to few western countries,

UA is not yet in EU, when it will be, you will have 5 milions Ukrainians who gonna emigrate next day they can

not problem remains - Russians living there want to live in Russian way, not EU/Ua way, this problem will remain, because minorities always cause problems when they not integrate but want to build their lifestyle-country on territory of other country,

in case of Ukraine it is all due to historic reasons (many centuries of Russian state presence etc.), some more authonomy for them would be good solution when this crisis ends (not annexation to Russia) , Ukraine republic (USSR) was much bigger than "Ukrainian nationality areas" and problem WAS made in 80s/90s when USSR collapsed, cause whole Ukrainian USSR republic was established to be Ukrainian country (state)

now they face problems because of USSR (like for example many Poles left on territories that USSR took away from Poland cause we lost 80 000 km2 after WW2)

this problem is hard to solve (from one side - people who do not feel Ukrainians, from other side Ukrainian territory, similar to Chechnya issue, Basks issue, Nother Ireland issue etc. )

many decades ago Stalin had fun with forcing multiculti, mixing populations, for example from Crimean area - native Tatars were moved , Russians were brought, Tatars were exterminated on Syberia, now Russia claims it is their native, but 80 years ago Tatars were there 30% , now Tatars are 10%, why ? uncle Stalin knows the answer, graves in Syberia know the answer,

i do not know how now solve that this territory would have peacefull living (after anexation of Putin it is much harder, cause Russia plays not fair, "there will be no anexation" "there are no Russian troops" - 0 credibility, making deals with Russian community can be the same, Ukraine government will say "okay, you have more autonomy" they will say "okay we not make uprising" , Ukrainian gov. pushes back troops, and next week "we join Russia !!!" )

basic issue is - how to give them more authonomy that they will not turn into another Putin "victory" (after which he will "free" Russians in other countries like Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia" and "bring back" territories from year 1900) cause for sure they had some rights which they said on BBC movie linked by ArtTem - that they do not want to live in such Europe like western europe is (if UA joins EU in future) cause in some cultures western-term "bigotery" means "normality" (and i understood them till they took hostages)

authonomy of some regions would be good there , what if in year 2030 we have west UA voting to join EU and east UA voting against ? country divided by half and half of UA in EU and NATO ? another half independent ?

we must be aware of this issue also , in year 2030 when UA will maybe reach level that allow to join EU (if they will get rid of Oligarchy system and total corruption if EU will exist and not fall apart in 5-10 years, if Europe will be European and atheistic-christian that time, east for sure will be orthodox that time)

Ukraine issue is not only today, but next 10 years issue also, Russians there on east of UA are big minority , they do not want to live "our" way, they want to live their way, seeing Putin way of success, growing power, wealth, growing order, maybe in 10 years UA will also fall apart in half , western part (native Ukrainians) joining EU, NATO, east independent with dream to be Russia

Edited May 3, 2014 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

all eastern european countries people emigrate to west due to 5 times better salaries, labour law, health care, children care, seriously lower corruption and nepothism in west [...]

Well, I lived almost 10 years in Spain due to work, so I know how people from Eastern Europe and Russia are immigrating massively there; but I have never heard of Ukrainians ( well, not 100% true as I had a couple of friends there that were Ukrainians, but by any means massively ).

- - - - -

The Guardian's Howard Amos in "The Guardian Live" reports:

"The events took place with the participation of illegal military formation from the unrecognised territory of Transnistria coordinated with sabotage groups from the Russian Federation," a spokesperson for the Ukrainian security forces said in Kiev.

But I don't know how reliable this journalist is, as yesterday he was saying that the fire in the Trade Union building in Odessa was provoked by Ukrainians. When anyone who was watching the streaming video could see that the fire started when the pro-Russian throw cocktail Molotov from the roof of the building that ignited a wooden barricades just below and the fire spread to the building.

[vilas 473]

Well, I lived almost 10 years in Spain due to work, so I know how people from Eastern Europe and Russia are immigrating massively there; but I have never heard of Ukrainians ( well, not 100% true as I had a couple of friends there that were Ukrainians, but by any means massively )

matter of "permition" to work, in my country also lots of Ukrainians work when they have permission to work, but when they will be part of EU, they would need no permission (it will be problem for many of us due to cheap labour which even cannot be competeed by Poles, Romanians, Bulgarians, Slovaks which are now "cheapest labour" in EU, it will make big nationalism in my country too when someone would go and took my job i would not be loving him neither my boss)

But I don't know how reliable this journalist is, as yesterday he was saying that the fire in the Trade Union building in Odessa was provoked by Ukrainians. When anyone who was watching the streaming video could see that the fire started when the pro-Russian throw cocktail Molotov from the roof of the building that ignited a wooden barricades just below and the fire spread to the building.

there is no ONE provocation, there everyone hates everyone, so there are multiple acts, there is no "mr X started, mr Y answered", there were multiple actions BEFORE (all those taking governmental buildings by pro-Russians, all those Yanuk administration guys from Russian nationality who were disarming country by torpedoing military and law enforcement, Oligarchs etc.)

you do not have there "clear" situation, you have 2 cultures, 2 histories, 2 nations which want to live their own way

[mistyronin 1181]

matter of "permition" to work

That's a good point.

you do not have there "clear" situation, you have 2 cultures, 2 histories, 2 nations which want to live their own way

I was talking about this specific situation. I was watching the streaming and could see perfectly how the molotov cocktails thrown by pro-Russian from above ignited the barricades surrounding the building entrance, and how that fire spread inside.

At that moment the Ukrainians were in the exterior but could not get inside ( that's why the pro-Russians from the roof were throwing everything to them ), as in the main gate there were still pro-Russians.

About the 2 cultures stuff, I lived in a lot of places with similar situations and were always solved peacefully ( for example in Spain there are lots of cultures coexisting, and some of them are fighting politically for independence referendums ). Or here in Finland you have the Finnish-Swedish ( that would be like the Ukrainians that speak Russian ).

And the situation in Ukraine is so tense and violent mainly because of the Russian influence ( I have been reading the Russian media for years, I started when RT was Russia Today ). Until three months ago, Ukraine was not present in the "western" media, not even with the Maidan's events there were much news.

All that changed when Yanukovich ordered the police to use war weapons against demonstrators carrying sticks and stones ( as you can find everywhere in Europe, here in Finland two days ago for instance ).

Edited May 3, 2014 by MistyRonin

[sudayev 27]

Yep there wouldn't be such situation without a third party obviously stirring the pot for some reason. I've been here and there as well and never seen people setting against each other because of some "different way of life". If different way of life was the issue we would have yet another civil war in USA between North and South hehe. Or like in Swiss, where three major group ethic group live (French, Italian, German), using their own language, living their culture and customs and no one tearing up the country because of that.

[vilas 473]

you cannot compare people living in Spain, Sweden-Finland with Russian-others

afaik Sweden was not making death camps and forced slavery to Fins (Suomi is proper word ?)

"holocaust" is word used about Jews, but similar actions you had made by Russian Tsar, by NKVD in USSR against other nations, people still remember about it, thats why i would not be surprised if Ukrainians attacked in single situation seeing proposal to join Russian Federation,

there was no ocupation, murders, prisons etc. for ages , you cannot compare "differences" between Finland -Sweden, with hate since ages because of Tsar , USSR, NKVD etc.

the fact that you worked in Swedish-Finnish surround doesn't even rely at 1% to living in regions where "i must watch everyday grandson of murder of my grandfather's brother "

but in USA you have black gangs who hate white people, because of slavery, right ? it is similar like gangs-neigborhoods in some US areas vs. guys who have money cause their grandfather was keeping slaves to work for his wealth

Edited May 3, 2014 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

you cannot compare people living in Spain with Russian-others

there was no ocupation, murders, prisons etc. for ages , you cannot compare "differences" between Finland -Sweden, with hate since ages because of Tsar , USSR, NKVD etc. living in regions where "i must watch everyday grandson of murder of my grandfather's brother "

Read about Spain's recent history. The Spanish Civil War ( 1936-1939 ) where BTW Russia ( USSR ) and German nazis took part. Where the insurgent fascist allied with the nazis, killed hundreds of thousands of people.

Also afterwards the Francisco Franco dictatorship repression of the cultures of Spain that were not castilian ( forbidding their language in the streets, prosecuting and executing some of their activist, etc. ). Also check about the terrorist band ETA, that stopped killing a few years ago.

So yeah, there you can see everyday and in every village that situation.

And even with all that shit, they are an example of peaceful fight for their rights, and for a referendum of independence. Check this link

BTW the Catalan culture repression by castilians started already in 1600... there was even a point in Barcelona a few centuries ago that Castilians had two fortress will all the guns pointing at the city. And during the 19th century Barcelona was bombed by the Spanish army every few years.

So again, Russian propaganda is the reason of the violence. And that's because Russian felt hurt when they lost the Cold War ( the same way Germans when they lose WWI ).

Edited May 3, 2014 by MistyRonin

[vilas 473]

so as you see - ETA is answer ,

now what to do to not have Russian ETA on Ukrainian territory or Ukrainian ETA on Russian/independent territory ?

i believe that more authonomy in this region for Russians would be good

p.s.

after you eddited and added link - you know, not all governments listen to peacefull asks , some governments hear only when there is terror < it is problem of those governments way of behaviour - not listening to people will or occupants of other nation territory etc.

Catalonia is different case

Edited May 3, 2014 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

after you eddited and added link - you know, not all governments listen to peacefull asks , some governments hear only when there is terror < it is problem of those governments way of behaviour - not listening to people will or occupants of other nation territory etc.

Catalonia is different case

Spanish Gov. doesn't listen to anything Catalonia says, in fact has forbidden that Independence Referendum and even threaten to send the Army. And what do catalans do? They keep fighting democratically and peacefully. Have peaceful demonstrations with millions of attendants.

In 2012: ( The Guardian ) Catalan independence rally brings Barcelona to a standstill

Barcelona was a sea of red and yellow Catalan flags as more than 1.5 million people brought the city to a standstill on Tuesday at a mass rally called to demand independence for the Spanish region.

In 2013: ( The Guardian ) Catalans join hands in huge human chain for independence from Spain

Hundreds of thousands of Catalonians joined hands to form a human chain 250 miles (400km) long, running from the border with neighbouring France to the region of Valencia in a call for Madrid to recognise Catalan independence.

Wednesday, was la Diada, or Catalan National Day, when the region commemorates the defeat of its troops in the Spanish war of succession in 1714. And at 5.14pm the human chain – or Via Catalana – linked arms.

As I said catalan culture and citizens have been attacked and prosecuted for more than 400 years. Bombed, murdered, etc. Forbid their culture and language, etc.

In fact even a lot of spanish speakers in Catalonia now defend the independence.

So no, don't tell me that Ukrainians that speak Russian that took weapons and started an insurrection just after few weeks of Yanukovich fall, have any legitime right.

Edited May 3, 2014 by MistyRonin

[Tonci87 163]

Yeah the problem with the Pro Russians there is that they immediately took up arms. They didn´t even try to solve this matter through proper demonstrations or politics. They just armed themselves and started to take over buildings.

If there had been months of peacefull demonstrations before that and if they had armed themselves in response to state troops using firearms against them then I would be totally on their side. But that is not how it happened.

[ProfTournesol 956]

That's because the pro Pussian uprising was far from being 100% spontaneous.

EDIT : we're going to lack of Russian participants in this topic !

Edited May 3, 2014 by ProfTournesol

[mistyronin 1181]

Ukrainian troops entering Kramatorsk:

Smoke in the streets:

[vilas 473]

it could be spontanous cause Eastern honor is different (if my nation was occupied by other nation than one spark will cause all my friends to uprise), Western people are more assertive "in everyday life" (labour issues, social secure etc), but when comes to fight for nation-religion-idependance Eastern people are much much more agressive (but shame we are less assertive in small cases like labour), being from nation which FOUGHT for over century for independance (not asking but fighting) i understand those people from east behind my border (both UA and RU)

i still believe that Russians there should get more autonomy (but not join Russia because it would grow Putin nationalism which could be dangerous to Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Georgia)

but as i said before in year 2030 when half of Ukraine will go to EU and another half will not want - than we gonna have situation repeated, eastern part will be "bigots" according to western language and according to eastern language "normal", while western part of UA will want to be part of EU (for several reasons)

shame that most important in Ukraine remains - Oligarchs > it is biggest shame, oligarchy = corruption, quasi-feudalism, mafia, lack of transparency of state clerks, police, courts etc.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Kiev governement was probably extremely clumsy towards Russian speaking eastern Ukrainians after the Maidan affair, but most of the civilians i heard in interviews still want to be part of Ukraine, but respected in their rights. A federal system who be probably the solution.

But the guys taking rifles and storming official buildings, taking hostages are probably manipulated cause this mess is profiting to Putin's Policy. The more he says the contrary (together with Lavrov-Molotov), the more i'm sure he is responsible for the mess.

[vilas 473]

Kiev governement was probably extremely clumsy towards Russian speaking eastern Ukrainians after the Maidan affair, but most of the civilians i heard in interviews still want to be part of Ukraine, but respected in their rights. A federal system who be probably the solution.

But the guys taking rifles and storming official buildings, taking hostages are probably manipulated cause this mess is profiting to Putin's Policy. The more he says the contrary (together with Lavrov-Molotov), the more i'm sure he is responsible for the mess.

absolutely agree, good idea is USA - different states with different law, if you not like - you move, (while in EU we are getting one similar politically correct law, so no matter where you move, you have low punishment for criminals and get sanctions for disliking LGTB as example, those people on BBC interview which were shown by ArtTeam are sayin that main reason they do not want to UA and EU is LGTB marriage, sollution would be something similar to USA - i want to live in "bigotery" i move to "bigot state", i want to live in "tollerance" i move there and live there, this is what those people want )

i think that in future Ukraine can split , it would be ca. 2030 when half of Ukraine will be able to join EU, east half would stand against it cause than Russia (if all goes like now) will be even stronger and wealthier/more rich and all those orthodox-church believers will want to be part of Russia again (not multiculti EU)

i believe that situation can double in "one" Ukraine , cause Eastern people are not loving Western lifestyle (see in London - Sharia patrol and alcohol issue when Muslims are around)

unless those Russians living in UA will see benefits from being in EU (more money, clear state transparency, no oligarchy, no corruption on such level, no nepothism to get a job, more health care, clean streets, safety etc)

what those people seen so far - one son of prosecutor and militia officer raped woman and he was free cause he was son of militia officer,

or what they seen more - you cannot get that profitable state job cause you are not son of mr X who is friend of mr Y who knows parliament member etc.

to buy love of those people - there must be a thing that will convince them "EU is better" - more money convince everyone , health care convice, lack of corruption convince, etc.

now they live in poverty - in poverty all ultra-X-ism (X=rightism, leftism, nationalism) ideas always have fuel , always, cause every man want to live in more rich, more safe, more powerfull state, only safety (feeling yourself secure) and money buy our good mood

Edited May 3, 2014 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

Vilas here in the EU there are not the same laws or tolerance level in all the countries. For example in Spain they have WAY more tolerance to Gays and Lesbians than here in Finland. The same with the immigration, here there is really few tolerance to immigration ( just search for True Finns which have the 19% of the votes ).

Every country in the EU has a lot of different laws, culture and traditions, I can see it as I spend most of my days lately with people from all the EU ( and outside ). While in the US they mostly have the same culture, law and traditions everywhere ( they need hundreds of years, to be like here in Europe ). But obviously there are the same basic rights in all the Union.

With the homosexuals is gonna happen the same like with the abortion, end of executions, divorce, women suffrage or the end of slavery or second classes. Its gonna be normalized all over the world ( in fact thats whats already happening in the US, day by day more states are approving the homosexual marriage, until they will be all )

Edited May 3, 2014 by MistyRonin

[vilas 473]

Every country in the EU has a lot of different laws, culture and traditions

but EU forces it and it is factor that make afraid of those people in eastern Ukraine, simple example - death penalty, 78% people from my country were for it , when it was ceased because of EU, another example - very strong in Poland church and traditional family man-woman, now our parliament says there will be no refferendum but gay-marriages will be forced, the same with EURO currency - there will be no refferndum, but Brussels will will be forced etc.

this is what those people shown by ArtTem on BBC interview were talking

noone will ask Poles about EURO currency - they will simply make EURO here, noone will ask about Gay marriages, they will simply do it , noone asks us about death penalty , they simply ceased it, while majority of us believe that pedophiles should be eliminated (we still are angry that one man who killed rapist of his small daughter get 25 years, internet websites are full of anger and information about one poor guy who get 25 years sentence for killing scum who hurted his child, for us he is hero, probably in Russia , USA, Arab countries if you killed pedo who raped your small kid, you would be free, in EU you get life sentence while robber who robbed you is free - it is not moral, it is insane that criminals in EU are "uber human" and they make "hate speech" law, so when robber will rob me on street he is free, if i say that i do not like someone from other religion i can be arrested ) , they are saying about The Netherland or Belgium where pedos want to even have party of pedos etc.

if you kill man doing robbery you get lower sentence than when you kill man who raped your kid, it is totally insane ,

this is what people in East of Ukraine afraid , Putin makes law the way Russian feel it, in some areas much better law than our own (i do not know how Russian law is up to self defence against criminal , in this i love US law)

in some areas Russia has much more to offer to those people there in east UA than EU (but Putin is danger to us, to our economy, to our safety, to our taxes cause we again must spend bilions on army instead of hospitals)

Edited May 3, 2014 by vilas