Ukraine General

[arttem 1]

But surely not with small arms.

Ofcourse. People please switch on you memory. There was many interviews and videos in wich we hear and see that they captured not only BMD's... Why everybody now surprised i can't understand. If they captured some AA toys, they must seat near them and doing nothing? :)

[mistyronin 1181]

People please switch on you memory. There was many interviews and videos in wich we hear and see that they captured not only BMD's... Why everybody now surprised i can't understand. If they captured some AA toys, they must seat near them and doing nothing? :)

To me what is interesting is not that hey had that weapons ( as was already reported in the press weeks ago ), but the effective use that they give to them.

Even Syrian guerrillas trained by the US are unable to do with similar weapons not even a slight damage ( yeah, it seems that they give them a couple weeks course in other countries about how to use all kind of weapons and then are send back home with some thousand euro gifts ).

[arttem 1]

Peskov: Kiev killed the last hope for the execution of the Geneva agreements.

(ITAR-TASS) http://itar-tass.com/politika/1162212

While Russia is making efforts to de-escalate and the settlement of the conflict, Kiev went to the fire from the combat aviation to peaceful settlements, began punitive operations, effectively destroying the last hope for the viability of the Geneva agreements", said on Friday the President's press Secretary Dmitry Peskov.

Also Peskov said that the day before by the task from Vladimir Putin, the special representative of the President Vladimir Lukin was sent to Slavyansk for negotiations on the release of the captured earlier foreign military observers. "Now the Russian side can't establish communication with Lukin," stressed the press-Secretary of the President.

"We are extremely concerned that in the area of punitive operation is not only the special representative of the President Lukin, with whom we cannot communicate, but also present Russian journalists and media representatives from other countries," Peskov said, adding that Russia demands Kiev measures to ensure their safety.

[mistyronin 1181]

Peskov: Kiev killed the last hope for the execution of the Geneva agreements.

(ITAR-TASS) http://itar-tass.com/politika/1162212

I guess that is hard to have hope in something you don't believe ( I'm referring to Peskov ). Besides that "by Russia making efforts to de-escalate" I guess Peskov means that the Kremlin has done its best to escalate the situation.

[arttem 1]

I guess that is hard to have hope in something you don't believe ( I'm referring to Peskov ). Besides that "by Russia making efforts to de-escalate" I guess Peskov means that the Kremlin has done its best to escalate the situation.

Sure. Yes. Only when special representative of the Russia President was sent there, Putin immediately gave a task to Kiev to start active operation. It was genius plan from Putin.

[Tonci87 163]

Putin did absolutely nothing to deescalate the situation. His representative is only there because of the OSCE members and the international pressure russia faced because of them (and also because they want to stay friends with Germany).

[arttem 1]

Putin did absolutely nothing to deescalate the situation. His representative is only there because of the OSCE members and the international pressure russia faced because of them (and also because they want to stay friends with Germany).

Ofcourse. That's why you need to start operation in region when representative of the Bloody President is there. It helps to de-escalate more effectively.

[mistyronin 1181]

Ofcourse. That's why you need to start operation in region when representative of the Bloody President is there. It helps to de-escalate more effectively.

Like Russia with Chechnya yeah.

Besides that we already agreed that you can't negotiate with terrorist ( and people that kidnap, torture, etc. without respecting any law are terrorist ).

On the other hand any president that had an armed uprising has the responsibility and the duty to confront it.

Which doesn't mean that the Ukrainian Gov should protect all their citizens rights to use their own language and culture.

But that armed "Pro-Russian" thugs lose all legitimization when they took the weapons instead of finding a political solution.

So the point would be 1st deal with the armed thugs and then work things with the population to find how they could fit or if needed a referendum so they can choose their own destiny ( which is an internal, democratic peaceful issue ).

[Tonci87 163]

The problem with the pro russian thugs is that they didn´t even try to find a political solution. They suddenly appeared, well armed, and started to make trouble.

[arttem 1]

I'm not interested in pro russian thugs. I'm not interested in Chechnya.

I see - what i see. Russia sends representative of the President to help with OSCE detainees. And the operation from Kiev begins. It's a step from Moscow? Hinds from Moscow? It's a raw fact. The representative of president is not a child at the beck and call. It's a highest official from Kremlin. Plenipotentiary representative.

With whom we are dealing? And with whom i deal here? Sry people, that thread wasn't very important for me. Now it became absolutely not interesting to me. Switching to "read from time to time only" mode.

[Tonci87 163]

I'm not interested in pro russian thugs. I'm not interested in Chechnya.

I see - what i see. Russia sends representative of the President to help with OSCE detainees. And the operation from Kiev begins. It's a step from Moscow? Hinds from Moscow? It's a raw fact. The representative of president is not a child at the beck and call. It's a highest official from Kremlin. Plenipotentiary representative.

With whom we are dealing? And with whom i deal here? Sry people, that thread wasn't very important for me. Now it became absolutely not interesting to me. Switching to "read from time to time only" mode.

Due, Putin had enough time to send someone and maybe to announce that he condems the tactics used by the separatists, he did none of that. When did they sign the Geneva agreement? When did he send his representative? On top of that he very well knew when the Operation against the separatists was to start. Russias secret service isn´t stupid.

And now he has the audacity to announce that the Geneva treaty failed. Yeah no shit. That has to be expected when one signing party does nothing to fullfill it.

http://www.tagesschau.de/ausland/ukraine1578.html

Edited May 2, 2014 by Tonci87

[mistyronin 1181]

Seems that Pro-Russian thugs are still trying to spread the chaos to Odessa.

The livestream is worth watching to see how crazy things are getting there.

Where BTW you can check that there are no "neo nazis", nor any paramilitary group, just all kinds of citizens ( from young to adult, businessman, etc.; different races, together ) fighting the pro-Russian thugs ( that wear most of them balaclavas, camo fatigues and tactical gear ). An almost half of the people are just there recording the events with cell phones.

Seems that the police could arrest some of the Pro-Russian thugs ( wearing bullet proof helmet and vest, tactical equipment, camo fatigues, and the Saint George's lace etc. ). Civilians are removing their balaclavas and filming them while police officers try to protect them from the beating ( guess that's gonna be on the news, because there were a lot of cameras recording it ).

From The Guardian Live:

AFP has a short report on the clashes in Odessa. There is a livestream feed from Odessa.

Hundreds of pro-Russian militants swinging batons and wearing helmets attacked a rally of 1,500 people in Ukraine's southern port city of Odessa demonstrating for national unity, an AFP journalist said.

Police intervened to try to break up the violence, which left dozens wounded on both sides. Odessa, which has around 1m inhabitants, had up to now been relatively spared the unrest wracking east Ukraine.

However, the city is located close to the border with Moldova and its breakaway state of Transdniestr, where Russia has troops stationed since a short war in 1992. Ukraine's Western-backed government accuses Russia of fomenting the rebellion on its territory.

On Monday, dozens of pro-Russian thugs armed with bats, bricks and knives attacked another pro-Ukrainian rally in the eastern city of Donetsk, wounding 14.

Oleksandr Turchynov, Ukraine's acting president, says the operation in Slavyansk did not make as much progress as hoped for because of the use of human shields. He also said Ukrainian border troops pushed back "armed saboteurs" who attempted to cross into Ukraine overnight.

The Ukrainian ambassador to Nato, Ihor Dolhov, has told the Debating Europe website that Ukraine does not want outside military help even if Russia invaded. The key quote from Dolhov, who was responding to posted questions.

We do not want any country or organisation to deploy military forces on our territory. We are self-sufficient in this regard. Ukraine has a strong army, and if – though nobody wants this to happen – but if Ukrainian borders are crossed by Russian troops, we will protect our country.

Reports say at least one person is dead in Odessa. Euromaidan PR, the pro-Kiev, group says one pro-Ukraine activist who died, was shot in the head by "pro-Russian thugs". RT, the pro-Moscow TV channel, also says one man was shot dead but gives no specifics.

Edited May 2, 2014 by MistyRonin

[negah 26]

Wow I'm amazed how people here want Putin to play by the rules while everyone else bends the rules to his own will.

He is a politician, just like Obama, Merkel etc... They all promise things and never keep them just like Obama promised to close Guantanamo and Merkel promised the clarification and prevention of the NSA spying activities in Germany.

But wait, they both are the good guys and can do whatever they wish (for example killing civilians with US drones controlled from Rammstein, Germany), how could I forget that.

And the Ukrainian "government" supported by the US (remember that "Fuck the EU" telefonate?), which murdered their own supporters and policemen first to be that government in first place, is perfectly eligible to murder their people as they wish further on with full support of the US controlled UN because theyre good guys too.

Remember that, Putin or any random russian who wants to do something for his country is always the bad guy, and whatever hes doing, telling or thinking, hes wrong.

Only enemies of russian government who steal russian money and transit it to UK or Swiss are per definition the good guys (eg Chodorkowski).

[mistyronin 1181]

Wow I'm amazed how people here want Putin to play by the rules while everyone else bends the rules to his own will.

He is a politician, just like Obama, Merkel etc... They all promise things and never keep them just like Obama promised to close Guantanamo and Merkel promised the clarification and prevention of the NSA spying activities in Germany.

Yeah of course, it's exactly the same... To invade and annex militarily territories, provoke chaos and violence than close Guantanamo or prevention of NSA...

Using your same comparisons, why did the world stopped Hitler? if he was only a politician...

---------- Post added at 19:40 ---------- Previous post was at 19:32 ----------

From The Guardian Live:

Merkel goes on to say that "Mr Putin needs to play a role … and his arguments need to be weighed. … The European Union and the United States need to act in concert, as they have from the start."

Obama adds that "I've said from the start that Russia has legitimate interests in Ukraine … and his views need to be taken into account. … [but] to violate the territorial integrity of a sovereign country – that is not acceptable. … Ukraine cannot accept that they are simply an extension, an appendage of Russia, and that the Kremlin has veto power over what happens in Kiev."

---------- Post added at 20:09 ---------- Previous post was at 19:40 ----------

BTW from the Streaming videos I could see that there are more than 3 people dead in Odessa ( they have shown at least 6 or 7 corpses in the floor with the head covered ).

---------- Post added at 20:19 ---------- Previous post was at 20:09 ----------

Something weird is happening in the streaming, people dress in black armed with assault rifles ( and don't seem to be police ) with a yellow armband have appeared in scene. ( anyone has any hint on who they may be? my guess would be extrem right wing Ukrainians, specifically Svoboda ).

---------- Post added at 20:31 ---------- Previous post was at 20:19 ----------

RT is lying, as in the streaming video was clear that were the pro-Russian who throw molotov cocktails from the upper floors to prevent the others to storm the building. That Molotov cocktails ignited different barricades and propagate the fire to the building ( according to some journalists, the pro-Russian were also shooting with rifles from the roof ).

The “football fans†who are attacking anti-government activists in Odessa have also set the local House of Trade Unions building on fire. The radicals stormed and torched the building after learning that some anti-Maidan activists had barricaded themselves inside it.

---------- Post added at 20:43 ---------- Previous post was at 20:31 ----------

Odessa population is trying to beat the pro-Russian thugs that are surrendering from the building but riot police are making a perimeter to protect them. After that police officers are evacuating them with armored vans.

What is quite clear from the images is that the pro-Russian thugs have been beaten hard today.

Still wondering about the "men in black and yellow armband".

---------- Post added at 20:58 ---------- Previous post was at 20:43 ----------

Here you can see pro-Russian thugs today in Odessa:

http://i.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/5/2/1399053024110/e869f422-f8f6-4f0d-85b0-f41247cddee1-620x372.jpeg?width=620&height=-&quality=95 (113 kB)

That in the video I could see how they arrived with white vans with the Donetsk Republic seal.

Edited May 2, 2014 by MistyRonin

[negah 26]

Yeah of course, it's exactly the same... To invade and annex militarily territories, provoke chaos and violence than close Guantanamo or prevention of NSA...

Using your same comparisons, why did the world stopped Hitler? if he was only a politician...

Funny how you simply ignore the mentioned drone attacks. Here is just one example of US peace bringers http://www.democracynow.org/2014/2/21/turning_a_wedding_into_a_funeral

And here is a list of US military operations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_military_operations#2010.E2.80.93present

US are surely working hard keeping peace around the world sending troops here and there and declaring countries who dont agree with them rogue states.

Its a great thing you can just tell everyone there is an awful lack of democracy in somewhere, and you have total proof of WMDs in that counry and... HELL YEAH everyone is jumping on the freedom train bombing half million innocents into oblivion.

[mistyronin 1181]

Funny how you simply ignore the mentioned drone attacks. Here is just one example of US peace bringers http://www.democracynow.org/2014/2/21/turning_a_wedding_into_a_funeral

I haven't said that I agree with the drone attacks. In fact I think that the US should be punished for that, and also for the spying networks.

But again, NOTHING compared to the crime of invading other countries to annex them and spreading hatred. Only the worst criminals in history can fit in this category.

---------- Post added at 21:18 ---------- Previous post was at 21:09 ----------

A few more news:

The New York Times' CJ Chivers is among numerous journalists at the scene reporting renewed gunfire in Slavyansk.

"Russia is looking for a pretext to invade" Ukraine, US ambassador Samantha Power told the UN Security Council emergency meeting called Friday by Russia.

Power's remarks followed an address by Russian ambassador Vitaly Churkin, who blamed the Ukrainian government for unrest in the east. "If Kiev's criminal misadventures do not end, catastrophic consequences for Ukraine will be inevitable," Churkin warned.

BTW if you want to keep watching streaming from Odessa, some Ukrainian demonstrators ( Svoboda ) are telling how they have been shoot ( showing the holes in the shields, etc.

[Tonci87 163]

Funny how you simply ignore the mentioned drone attacks. Here is just one example of US peace bringers http://www.democracynow.org/2014/2/21/turning_a_wedding_into_a_funeral

And here is a list of US military operations http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_military_operations#2010.E2.80.93present

US are surely working hard keeping peace around the world sending troops here and there and declaring countries who dont agree with them rogue states.

Its a great thing you can just tell everyone there is an awful lack of democracy in somewhere, and you have total proof of WMDs in that counry and... HELL YEAH everyone is jumping on the freedom train bombing half million innocents into oblivion.

And that makes russias actions OK?

Yes the US does evil things, yes those responsible should be punished, but this isn´t a thread about the US! It is a thread about Ukraine and Putin is deeply involved in this whole mess. What he does is not OK.

[ProfTournesol 956]

And that makes russias actions OK?

Nope.

[sudayev 27]

http://ukraineinvestigation.com/

interesting page

[mistyronin 1181]

http://ukraineinvestigation.com/

interesting page

I was watching the streaming were some of that pics of the website have been taken, and although the police was "friendly" with the population, at all times they tried to protect the detained Pro-Russian thugs ( although some times they were over-passed by the ones who wanted to beat the thugs ).

This one shown with a gun and a red armband was in the Pro-Russian side; I remember him because he was with a couple of others in that balcony from a yellow building ( this one, although the balcony can't be seen as it would be in the right side of it ) throwing molotov cocktails and stones to the people below.

About the rest I haven't seen it properly in the images, so could be true.

BTW all of this are stupidities compared to the weird image that I have noted above. At some point, for a short period of time a few black cars have stopped, and dropped people dressing in black with full tactical gear and assault rifles with yellow armbands. They were kicking some people, and taking them to their cars; and also they threatened the camera. It's weird that they don't appear in any media. I would say they were from Svoboda.

- - - - -

Sadly I was right from the account of the death that I've seen in the video:

( BBC ) Dozens killed in Odessa clashes

At least 38 people have been killed in a fire in an official building amid clashes in Odessa, in south west Ukraine, local police say.

Although I don't believe they were all because of the fire, there were a lot of corpses in front of that building before the fire started; most of them Ukrainians ( have been killed by rifle gunfire ).

The Ukrainian Interior ministry says 38 people died in the fire in the Odessa trade union building. The ministry says eight died jumping from the building and 30 died from smoke inhalation.

But well, I guess that would be enough for Putin to consider it a casus belli.

BTW the events are still on going in the streaming services ( right now the police is still taking people from that building and bring them to police vans ), while ukrainians try to by-pass the police line to beat them.

- - - - -

Video showing the consequences of the fire ( be advised: strong images )

( video removed to follow the forum rules, use Google to find it )

Edited May 2, 2014 by MistyRonin

[spooky lynx 73]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2c9Sgbwwu0

Green-white-red man?

[mistyronin 1181]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2c9Sgbwwu0

Green-white-red man?

And speaking Italian? :rolleyes:

- - - - -

Russian buildup in the Ukrainian border by The Washington Post:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bmp2RkRCMAACCM4.jpg:large (269 kB)

Edited May 2, 2014 by MistyRonin

[spooky lynx 73]

And speaking Italian? :rolleyes:

Seems for me - yes. Very interesting...

[ProfTournesol 956]

Russian buildup in the Ukrainian border by The Washington Post:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bmp2RkRCMAACCM4.jpg:large (269 kB)

Looks like a WW2 wargame...frightening...

[negah 26]

But well, I guess that would be enough for Putin to consider it a casus belli.

I couldnt find the source but I remember reading about ukrainian official telling about a russian radio message or telefonate they managed to tap into.

There the russians supposedly said they needed about 150 people killed to intervene in (east)ukraine. That number could be reached by now.

AFAIK at least 40000 russian army servicemen are atm on ukrainian border while the ukrainian army is not in its best shape.

I dont try to draw any conclusion from it.