Ukraine General

[mistyronin 1181]

War is a terrible thing, and it is by its self a crime. So it is not right to point out 1 sides wrongs and completely ignore the other side. You can't deny the major crimes and wrongs committed by the Ukrainian army.

I agree with you that war by itself is a terrible crime. And obviously the Ukrainian Army has committed wrongdoings like for instance the massive use of Grad rockets in highly populated areas ( I commented that in the last page ).

In the end isn't the whole reason for this war the wish of ethnic Russians to have greater rights and autonomy, and so it shouldn't be odd that most of the rebel fighters are Russian.

Here it's were I don't agree. Before the fall of Yanukovich and the Crimean crisis there has not been any major civilian movement in the mainly Russian speaking part of Ukraine, it all just appeared as a mushroom, without even trying any peaceful options, as in practically all the historical places were a rebellion had happened.

And it's neither clear that the goal was to give greater rights and autonomy to the ethnical Russians, as I said that could have been achieved through peaceful and democratic methods, even the Party of the Regions was quite on that. Specially having a presidential elections in a couple months.

No, it seems quite clear it was a rebellion to destabilize the area, which was one of the main economic regions of Ukraine; before Ukraine tighten links with other countries.

[negah 26]

They are fleeing to other parts of Ukraine, why don't you read the links you post.

(UN) Ukraine: Overview of population displacement (as of 23 July 2014)

It seems people here do love to pick at every effing single word indeed.

OK I rephrase myself: the MAJORITY of ukrainian refugees flee to Russia.

According to the latest figures from the United Nations’ refugee agency, UNHCR, a total of 141,972 Ukrainians have fled to Russia this year because of unrest in eastern Ukraine, based on information from the Russian Federal Migration Service as of July 22. More than 41,000 of those Ukrainians are reported to have applied for asylum.

An additional 101,617 Ukrainians were reported as internally displaced within Ukraine as of July 22, the UNHCR said.

Happy now?

[Sgt.Spoetnik 10]

Came across this little gem just; its a bill that will go to the US senate and then congress but not sure when, but its a bill to attack Russia in any way, economic and internal and give support to nato/non nato members and old USSR country's at a staggering cost to the taxpayers. Its a long piece to read but i suggest you try and read it complete because its significant.

https://beta.congress.gov/113/bills/s2277/BILLS-113s2277is.pdf

Read it and mayby you will understand some off the stuff going on in Ukraine and around europe better,and see wat its about!

[vilas 477]

i have read a little, what i see is support to sovereign states, that can be under danger from Russian imperialism (Baltic states, my country)

[blu3sman 11]

(The Independent) Ukraine crisis: EU to impose toughest sanctions yet on Russian banks and energy firms

EU ambassadors are set to approve fresh sanctions covering the financial sector, energy exploration technology and arms sales. It will be the first time that entire sectors, rather than individuals or firms, have been targeted by the West.

Russian expert on russian tv confirms russian rocket artillery shelling ukrainian territory.

Typical russian orthodox fascism fighter and liberator tells how locals refuse to take up arms.

"Back where I was local population was ready to tear... everybody was eager to fight. And here.. I don't get it why it's so here.

From million city they can't gather 10k fighters"

About fighting in field:

"..honestly it's scarry... And in city - fun, good" *smiles*

[mistyronin 1181]

Came across this little gem just; its a bill that will go to the US senate and then congress but not sure when, but its a bill to attack Russia in any way, economic and internal and give support to nato/non nato members and old USSR country's at a staggering cost to the taxpayers.

Point 1. It's a project of law.

Point 2. In what sense does this law attack Russia, could you point what article/section?

Because I have read it and it looks precisely the opposite. It's a law to help European countries against Russian aggressions.

We should ask people from the countries that its meant to protect. I've ask my friends from the Baltics and Poland and all think its defensive.

[blu3sman 11]

In what sense does this law attack Russia

That's typical "if you plan to secure yourself from being invaded/bombed with IBMs then you are attacking/provoking Russia, therefore you should be invaded/bombed by IBMs" russian iron logics.

[vilas 477]

Point 2. In what sense does this law attack Russia, could you point what article/section?

when Poland wanted better defence system, Russians took this for attack,

if Lithuanians would buy better bullet proof vests, Putin would say it is attack on Russia

---------- Post added at 17:59 ---------- Previous post was at 17:25 ----------

to be objective not only saying about one side of news: few Polish independent journalists , whom i respect cause they say politically not correct truth, said that USA shown no solid proofs except one telephone chat taken from Ukraine intel, while Russians shown proof that SU25 was near this civilian plane, and shot could be by separatists because of presence of SU25,

hard situation, cause i know those journalists are anti-Russian, they are rather right wing, anti-NWO etc.

they say that this plane shot, could be caused by irresponsible behavior of UA jet pilots which made riskful flight near this civilian plane and this tragedy is not cold-blood murder or mistake but "collateral damage accident during firefight"

surprising statement from those journalists, but i heard that very respected by me journalists have doubts about was it clear happy-trigger moron shooting anything he see on radar or accident , they same journalists accusing Russia and Polish prime minister office for Polish jet accident in 2010 in Russia (where our president died with a 96 other officials) so those journalists are not loving Russia or Putin, they try to be objective till all evidences are clear as in non corrupted court proceeding, they not deny it was separatists who shoot , but they question whether it was "ooo Sasha, i see bip on radar, shoot bip, boom" or it was "i see SU25 on trajectory, fire missile, SU25 fired flares, rocket hit Ukrainian transport plane"

i do not know what to think , those journalists say "we want to discover truth , not to support Russia"

[Tonci87 163]

"Hey Russia, we'd like to buy some stuff to defend ourselves in case that someday you decide to go crazy and attack us."

"How dare you!?"

"Well we are a souvereign state, we can do what we want."

"You are a part of the former Soviet Unions sphere of influence. You belong to us! You will do what we tell you. You will not deploy any defensive meassures against us!"

"Look Russia we have new friends now and we want to protect us. You know that you conquered us more than once in the past? We don't want that to happen again."

"That is an act of agression, prepare for consequences!"

[Sgt.Spoetnik 10]

defensive yeah right! they want to push nato and US forces on the border with Russia while demanding russian forces be removed from their side of that border.not to mention arming,training and supporting the armed forces in the border regions to Russia from Estonia to Georgia,etc.

and knowing US agressions and greed for other country's assets and resources its no suprise to see how they will come in and "help" these country's while stealing their resources(read about the nuclear deal at the end ,or the gas deals they try to push on all off us to block and stop russia's gas deals with the EU, we seen the US help in the middle east!

-

Expanded broadcasting in countries of the former Soviet Union.

like this one, how will they do this,block russian tv and internet channels while pushing their own propaganda upon the ppl!?

-

Support for Russian democracy and civil society organizations.

or this one,we all seen this in the middle east,and yeah they so much better off now that their democratic! and when the crap hits the fan,the US is like,oh its your problem now,have fun!

Sorry if you still wont believe it,but mayby you will when yanks come camping in your part of the woods then.

Tonic,you read the part about the german US relations? real partners there lol

Edited July 29, 2014 by Sgt.Spoetnik

[beastcat 14]

defensive yeah right! they want to push nato and US forces on the border with Russia while demanding russian forces be removed from their side of that border.

There is a big difference between defense systems and invasion forces.

[Dwarden 1125]

About Georgia 2008 yeah you're right, same situation but worse this time. Back then Georgian army has also shelled civilian areas.

However Russian army has intervened back then and the killings were a put to an end after a couple of days.

ironically I do remember it differently, I remember R to supply rebels with heavy weapons, including arty and grads,

I remember rebels shelling villages on G side but when G did something it was bad

i remember the so called 'peaceful' forces consisting of G,R,rebel units to skip by 2:1 vote that nothing happened if it was by r :)

the modus operandi of the new R empire don't change and those who don't remember the past show the ignorance is bliss

[blu3sman 11]

Hey, KGB can into Wikipedia!

http://globalvoicesonline.org/2014/07/29/russia-ukraine-germany-mh17-wikipedia/

[vilas 477]

when i read pro-Russian voices i read strange philosophy that sovereign states cannot decide what they do , Estonia has no right to train with US troops or get US advisors?

Estonia is sovereign state and can do whatever they want on Estonian land

only imperialists "take care" what happens in small neighboring country near by,

it is not about how US corporations cheat on money , how NWO cheat , it is about freedom of choice, so people in different countries can decide (even if they decide wrong for their economy), they are sovereign to commit mistakes on their own,

Russians act like neighbor who sticks nose in other people houses cause wants to make "order",

people who respect freedom, do not care if their neighbor is gay, idiot f* rubber doll, Jew eating koshe food, if neighbor has 5 cats or he is famous musician, it is his privacy until he doesn't aim gun at us,

but Russia is fully armed neighbor who forbids people around to have bullet proof jacket and helmets, cause he want to shoot someone , they do not understand meaning of freedom,

they understand "order" (paryadok) , so when policeman batons someone different, they understand "oo there is order, it is good" ,

in communism era (and it remained till today, post commie states are most disarmed places in world, cause gov. are corrupted like before gov. were) and this was Tsar and later Bolshevik philosophy "only we can have weapon, only we can keep eye, only we can shoot"

comparing USA where citizen is voting for sheriff or judge to post-Soviet philosophy when "central corrupted officials choose who is armed, who is judge" shows this difference,

western philosophy (with all its faults ,such as political correct bullshit, or too much human rights bullshit , criminals rights over victim right) is giving more freedom, thats why people support it , even though in Russia state functions better than in many post-commie states,

but Russians keep still this non-freedom trend after USSR, and Tsars before,

rest prefers even worse working (or maybe looking like this, cause we do not have as much propaganda controlling information and information are shown in independent not controlled media, maybe corruption and injustice in Russia is much bigger, just their media do not inform about shocking cases opposite to our media which inform about injustice in courts, corruption in courts), but be free

[Tonci87 163]

@Spoetnik I never claimed that the US is any better, but they at least didn't try to conquer everyone around them in the last centuries. They also didn't try to displace or kill the population. You have no clue how much the residents of the former Soviet republics detest Russia. Why do you think they are seaking Nato and US help? Why aren't Mexico and Canada seeking Russian help?

[PuFu 4600]

@Spoetnik I never claimed that the US is any better

Well, i do claim that, and i am far from being a mindless USA fanboy, quite the contrary i might say

But you simply cannot compare the two, or in fact you can, but you cannot put them as equal.

And yes, former communist states who were under russia's wing hate their guts (most have nothing against normal people who have no reason to be hated, but the government and their ideology). I should know, i live in one of those countries. That doesn't mean i don't have quite a few russian friends around, on the contrary. Putin on the other hand, well, he really deserves a bullet between the eyes (not that he is the only one deserving the said bullet).

EDIT:

This sort of mentality: --- Well, we were wrong, but so was US so many times before. Why are you picking on us?. <or> Our shit hit the fan so badly, even so, we gonna try and lie our way out, especially after lying for so many years to our own population. Besides, US is also lying quite a a lot. So is EU. So, where is the problem then? ---- really needs to stop.

The communist mentality of: if you are not with us you are against us is so unproductive.

Edited July 29, 2014 by PuFu

[aleksadragutin 9]

You are all missing the big geo-political picture. The war has nothing to do with Russian rights, same as the war in Iraq(it had nothing to do with protecting people).

[scottmillerukctrg 12]

SU-25 pilot admits to have shot down flight MH17.

http://german.ruvr.ru/news/2014_07_29/Ukrainischer-Pilot-der-Su-25-behauptet-die-Boeing-abgeschossen-zu-haben-5917/

[lesscubes 1]

SU-25 pilot admits to have shot down flight MH17.

http://german.ruvr.ru/news/2014_07_29/Ukrainischer-Pilot-der-Su-25-behauptet-die-Boeing-abgeschossen-zu-haben-5917/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-25#Specifications_.28Su-25.2FSu-25K.2C_late_production.29

Service ceiling: 7,000 m[98] (22,965 ft) clean, 5,000 m (16,000 ft) with max weapons

MH17 was at 33,000 feet. Does the Frogfoot carry a weapon system that can climb 17,000 feet up and track a target? Not so much.

[maddogx 13]

SU-25 pilot admits to have shot down flight MH17.

http://german.ruvr.ru/news/2014_07_29/Ukrainischer-Pilot-der-Su-25-behauptet-die-Boeing-abgeschossen-zu-haben-5917/

That article links to this page as a source. At the top of that page:

The source of this article is a satire page.

[tacticalnuggets 24]

It seems people here do love to pick at every effing single word indeed.

OK I rephrase myself: the MAJORITY of ukrainian refugees flee to Russia.

Happy now?

Its not even being picky, they are being selective. The last post I made I quoted "most" officers to counter that particular fact. There are known russian operatives in the ranks of the rebels, but to state that "most" of the officers are operatives is a blatant assumption.

EDIT: Please do not take offense to this, but dont you guys think, as Arma players, that you might be a little hyped on this? Its "thrilling" to believe that Russia could be engaging in a total war, or maybe "romantic" by others standards, but the reality is very simple and scary. Wars start because everyone assumes everything about their opponents, while the real fighters have to know the truth about their opponents to win the war. It is frustrating for those who have fought real battles on front lines to hear this propaganda after they clean up collateral damage.

Edited July 30, 2014 by tacticalnuggets

[kbbw123 115]

I just wish that everyone would calm down over there..... we sent in 63 people to make sure to collect personal items and the last few victims underneath the wreck and what happens?

Bloody ukraine goverment start attacking the area around it and starts to drive te rebels away... massive fighting blablabla the usual.... in the meen time the dutch people are stuck in there base of operations with not a single gun around them to protect them hoping they will survive and are able to do there job....

then again a nice australian comes in to tell that he was being taken hostage by the rebels who claim that if he was dutch he would have been executed....

so basicly.... because of ukraine military the dutch group can't do there work.... and now the word of the rebels are also untrust whordie so even if the army wasnt conquering we wouldn't be able to do stuf why can't they al just admit "okay because we where being stupid and started a pointless war youre people died.. so we will stop the fighting completly til you did youre complete recover mission and after that we start again with shooting each other" it would only have to be for like 3 bloody weeks and the dutch group whould have done there work....

Noo lets start being stupid on all fronts thats there motto....:mad:

why can't they think of the countless people that lost someone dear to there stupidety

[negah 26]

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014/07/28/osce-observers-work-border-within-days-russia-says

"We expect the OSCE observers to deploy at the Donetsk and Gukovo checkpoints in the next few days," Lavrov said at a briefing in Moscow.

"I hope this will allow us to dispel the suspicions periodically voiced to us that those checkpoints controlled on the Ukrainian side by rebels are used to send weapons and armed people on a mass scale from Russia to Ukraine," Lavrov said.

The Russian diplomat accused the West of deliberately stalling the observers' mission after President Vladimir Putin issued the invitation on July 11.

"Two weeks passed, basically in discussions with the OSCE that weren't needed by anyone, when US and British diplomats together with Ukrainian ones tried to stop them accepting this invitation from Russia."

If the last quote is true, and I guess at such level he wouldnt publicly lie about other diplomats, than it rather implies that there never were any tanks, apcs and russian soldiers marching by the thousands across the ukrainian border (and now apparenty hiding under a bush somewhere).

[aleksadragutin 9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-25#Specifications_.28Su-25.2FSu-25K.2C_late_production.29

MH17 was at 33,000 feet. Does the Frogfoot carry a weapon system that can climb 17,000 feet up and track a target? Not so much.

R-60 rocket has an operational range of 8000m and flight altitude of 20000m, and is also fitted on a Su-25. The K-13 has a range of 35000m, also fitted on Su-25. Completely possible to down a much higher flying aircraft.

[Tonci87 163]

Yeah but the Ukrainians would still need to load those things on their ground attack aircraft. You know, those things they use to bomb rebel positions on the ground. From Ukraines point of view it doesn't make sense to put AA missiles on SU-25