Ukraine General

[negah 26]

Wrong thread. The US is pushing for a cease fire. Neither Hamas or Israel is going to play that game. To say the Israeli's have been heavy handed would be putting it mildly.

The situation isn't an exact analogue either, but you know that.

No he was right to post it here.

Its pretty interesting how the US and EU are sanctioning Russia for their help to the rebels while Israel is bombing the hell out of civilians and UN buildings where more people have died in a couple of days than in the months of the Ukrainian conflict.

When will someone sanction Israel, when will someone sanction the USA for all what theyve done.

In the mean time Russia has threatened to increase the gas prices for the EU, thanks USA and their loyal Merkel, in the end it is the taxpayer who has to pay for all the bs our politicians do right now.

http://www.n24.de/n24/Nachrichten/Politik/d/5158696/eu-verabschiedet-sanktionen-gegen-russland.html

Speaking of taxpayers, why do we (i.e. german taxpayers) have to pay for the american bases in Germany?

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ausl%C3%A4ndische_Milit%C3%A4rbasen_in_Deutschland#Kosten_der_Stationierung

[Tonci87 163]

That is offtopic. Take that to the US politics thread if you wish. And yes the world should heavily sanction Israel.It doesn't because of very powerfull Lobby Groups in the US and the mayor EU states.

[mistyronin 1181]

Its pretty interesting how the US and EU are sanctioning Russia for their help to the rebels while Israel is bombing the hell out of civilians and UN buildings where more people have died in a couple of days than in the months of the Ukrainian conflict.

I agree with lesscubes that the situation is not analogue, you are trying to compare apples and sharks.

Russia has well deserved sanctions for their hypocritical support to the pro-Russian ( while in Russia forbidding any kind of peaceful claim in favor of separatism ).

When will someone sanction Israel

About Israel, I agree that the IDF and Israeli gov. have surpassed all logical red-lines and should be "scolded" internationally, at less with sanctions ( IMO the punishment should be higher, like judging some of the responsibles of the latest massacres ).

In the mean time Russia has threatened to increase the gas prices for the EU, thanks USA and their loyal Merkel, in the end it is the taxpayer who has to pay for all the bs our politicians do right now.

That would be a really weird move, as Russia is so in debt that its survival depends on investors ( which right now are mainly from the West ).

Speaking of taxpayers, why do we (i.e. german taxpayers) have to pay for the american bases in Germany?

I think that is related to trying to invade the world and war reparations, I'm pretty sure that its not only to US bases but also to British and French. Although that bases are being reduced as there is no more Cold War ( for now ) and Germany is a NATO ally.

[negah 26]

I think that is related to trying to invade the world and war reparations, I'm pretty sure that its not only to US bases but also to British and French. Although that bases are being reduced as there is no more Cold War ( for now ) and Germany is a NATO ally.

The status of the occupation zone was officially suspended with the foundation of FRG. All reparations were paid by the end of 1953. However there is still no peace treaties between Germany and the former Allies.

And yeah there is no more Cold War now and some bases are reduced, still USA are using for example Ramstein Air Base for its drone operations. Therefore Germany is closely involved in that war crime not only by hosting the base of operations but also by funding it, thats what I dont like.

[vilas 477]

not true, reparations were not paid to Poland cause Soviet Union and commie regime resigned from it against will of whole nation (it was Russian occupants decision) , reparations were paid only to western countries, not to eastern (because of USSR),

and Germany and France were and still are upgrading Russian army, so don't play German saint,

and what US war crimes do you talk about ? liquidation of fanatic jihadists al-queda taliban ? what america does in middle east is not war crime, but securing our world from mad jihadists who wish to cut throat to anyone who is not obeying Sharia , without US "crimes" we would be in danger that al-queda would blow up our subways, supermarket, churches , killing gays etc. thanx to those "crimes" number of fanatics (ready to go and blow up in our subway train) is limited,

real "crime" is international corporations that enslave people to work for penny, but this is not one-country related cause corporations are international , including German, French, British not only US foundations ,

[aleksadragutin 9]

Do you seriously believe that?

[batto 17]

Its pretty interesting how the US and EU are sanctioning Russia for their help to the rebels while Israel is bombing the hell out of civilians and UN buildings where more people have died in a couple of days than in the months of the Ukrainian conflict.

I guess the sanctions have little to do with causalities. The real reason is fear of Russian government. Yes, this world is cold and cruel.

[negah 26]

not true, reparations were not paid to Poland cause Soviet Union and commie regime resigned from it against will of whole nation (it was Russian occupants decision) , reparations were paid only to western countries, not to eastern (because of USSR),

and Germany and France were and still are upgrading Russian army, so don't play German saint,

and what US war crimes do you talk about ? liquidation of fanatic jihadists al-queda taliban ? what america does in middle east is not war crime, but securing our world from mad jihadists who wish to cut throat to anyone who is not obeying Sharia , without US "crimes" we would be in danger that al-queda would blow up our subways, supermarket, churches , killing gays etc. thanx to those "crimes" number of fanatics (ready to go and blow up in our subway train) is limited,

real "crime" is international corporations that enslave people to work for penny, but this is not one-country related cause corporations are international , including German, French, British not only US foundations ,

Oh yeah I see how killing civilians (e.g. hitting a wedding) with a drone strike helps fighting terrorism and is not a war crime.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/23/obama-drone-program-anniversary_n_4654825.html

In Pakistan alone, TBIJ estimates, between 416 and 951 civilians, including 168 to 200 children, have been killed.

Those children would definately grow up into terrorists.

[beastcat 14]

Russian special services have likely spread false rumors with the help of social networks about forced conscription in Kharkiv.

- Sudden appearance of rumors of forced conscription through new accounts.

- Sudden rise in rating of the posts

- Other pro-russian accounts (Likely bots. Yes, they really do exist.) pick up the story and link to the original fake rumor.

Edited July 31, 2014 by beastcat

[lesscubes 1]

Its pretty interesting how the US and EU are sanctioning Russia for their help to the rebels while Israel is bombing the hell out of civilians and UN buildings where more people have died in a couple of days than in the months of the Ukrainian conflict.

When will someone sanction Israel, when will someone sanction the USA for all what theyve done.

It's not terribly interesting. The Israeli's are... Israeli. They've gone well over the top this time. Well, WELL over the top. They also happen to be a people surrounded by people who want to eradicate them. I won't try to excuse their actions. Sanctions won't happen on the US end. The Israeli lobby is very strong in the US for a lot of reasons. As for the EU, since when has the EU had the stones? They don't have them with Russia, do they?

As far as Sanctioning the United States? I wont deny my country has done horrible things. (So has yours, in case you hadn't forgot.) The practical answer is, most nations wouldn't willingly engage in sanctions against the worlds biggest power and economy. Kind of like why everyone does business with the PRC even though it's one of the worst authoritarian nations on earth. There is too much money in it.

In the mean time Russia has threatened to increase the gas prices for the EU, thanks USA and their loyal Merkel, in the end it is the taxpayer who has to pay for all the bs our politicians do right now.

http://www.n24.de/n24/Nachrichten/Politik/d/5158696/eu-verabschiedet-sanktionen-gegen-russland.html

The gas is the key to Russia's economy. And also why the EU's sanctions have been so hilariously weak. Why would Putin actually do it? He's crazy, not stupid.

Speaking of taxpayers, why do we (i.e. german taxpayers) have to pay for the american bases in Germany?

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ausl%C3%A4ndische_Milit%C3%A4rbasen_in_Deutschland#Kosten_der_Stationierung

So the Bundeswher doesn't have to pull it's weight in NATO? (It's funny because it's true!!!)

I'd need an article in English to really comment. Reparations for the war I'd assume?

[mistyronin 1181]

The gas is the key to Russia's economy. And also why the EU's sanctions have been so hilariously weak. Why would Putin actually do it? He's crazy, not stupid.

Although the resources are the main Russian treasure, probably the key in their economy is the debt and the need for foreign investment; which is where the sanctions have attacked ( relatively mild ones obviously ).

If Russia is unable to pay its debt, their economy would be in serious serious problems, right now they can, but each blow of sanctions create more doubts in all of those who are interested in invest in Russia.

( Bloomberg ) Russia’s Argentine Debt Tango

---------- Post added at 07:19 ---------- Previous post was at 06:31 ----------

On the other hand:

( New York Times ) Break in Fighting Lets International Team Reach Site of Ukraine Crash

At one rebel checkpoint within the crash area, near the village of Rozsypnoe, The Associated Press reported that a separatist militiaman allowed the monitors to pass but fired a shot in the air to keep accompanying reporters from proceeding any farther. He said there was still fighting in the village, the agency reported. Reporters accompanying the group said explosions from nearby shelling could be heard.

[beastcat 14]

[vilas 477]

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-28583669

[negah 26]

This guy is basically talking how the Donezk region is simply a resource for Ukraine and how it should be used.
He means that 1 - 1.5 mio people living there are redundant and should be killed.

For such kind of freedom of speech he would be sentenced to prison where I live.

[mistyronin 1181]

This guy is basically talking how the Donezk region is simply a resource for Ukraine and how it should be used.

He means that 1 - 1.5 mio people living there are redundant and should be killed.

For such kind of freedom of speech he would be sentenced to prison where I live.

At least that guy is only talking, not executing people extrajudicially like the pro-Russians. Check the video from Vice News.

[negah 26]

At least that guy is only talking, not executing people extrajudicially like the pro-Russians. Check the video from Vice News.

Sure that they all were murdered by the separatists? What do you think were the separatists doing to all those civilians who were killed by ukrainian bombardements and air strikes.

They put them all into separate graves and mass graves were only for those they killed themselves?

[mistyronin 1181]

Sure that they all were murdered by the separatists? What do you think were the separatists doing to all those civilians who were killed by ukrainian bombardements and air strikes.

They put them all into separate graves and mass graves were only for those they killed themselves?

You know that is quite different and obvious the corpse of someone who died in a bombardment or air strike and those who have received a close shot.

[negah 26]

You know that is quite different and obvious the corpse of someone who died in a bombardment or air strike and those who have received a close shot.

Thats why I asked if ALL of them were killed by separatists. I dont deny that separatists were killing civilians just as you should not deny that UA forces were doing the same.

I mean not collateral damage but for example what happened in Odessa, and please dont tell me they put themselves on fire, how can it explain that people were beaten or stangled to death inside and outside of that building.

Besides most of the corpses were in body bags already, how can you see what happened to them.

[mistyronin 1181]

Thats why I asked if ALL of them were killed by separatists. I dont deny that separatists were killing civilians just as you should not deny that UA forces were doing the same.

We are not talking about simple killings, but extrajudicial executions. And up to this moment the only evidences say that pro-Russians have been doing it.

I mean not collateral damage but for example what happened in Odessa, and please dont tell me they put themselves on fire, how can it explain that people were beaten or stangled to death inside and outside of that building.

Nope. The pro-Russians didn't started the fire, it was only one of their Molotov Cocktails that "fell" from the roof that ignited the barricades. I remember you that at that moment I watched it through different live streaming videos.

About the people that were beaten and strangled inside the building, I also told you that after watching the streaming live, people there were really pissed off and violent and if it wasn't for the Ukrainian Police a lot more pro-Russians would have died ( for instance there was about fifty people trying to beat a pro-Russian guy that was protected by three lines of police, throwing him stones and more ). But I also saw how pro-Russians had came with white vans with the Donetsk Republic seal and used guns to shoot the Ukrainians.

But again here we are not talking about a brawl but about cold blooded murder.

Besides most of the corpses were in body bags already, how can you see what happened to them.

In fact no. The corpses were putted in the bags afterwards. Not to talk about all the documents that prove the "Stalin's time judicial" system that the pro-Russians had set up.

Edited August 1, 2014 by MistyRonin

[negah 26]

I see there is no point in arguing as both of us only see their points of view.

Its quite convenient though for the rebels to leave some documents proving their guilt.

Edited August 1, 2014 by negah

[mistyronin 1181]

Its quite convenient though for the rebels to leave some documents proving their guilt.

The pro-Russians have not been precisely smart in the past: kidnapping and beating foreign journalists, OSCE monitors, not allowing pass to the destroyed plane, electing as leaders Russian citizens some past war criminals, one of their main leaders resigning from Moscow, and long etc. Also all evidence point them as the culprits of shooting down the civilian airliner by mistake.

That's what happen when people believe they are above the rest.

[Tonci87 163]

Don't forget that there are some people amongst the separatists (their defense Minister for example) who were involved in mass murder during the war in Bosnia. Civilian lifes have no meaning for them.

[beastcat 14]

Its quite convenient though for the rebels to leave some documents proving their guilt.

Did you even watch the video? They burned down the whole building in order to destroy all evidence quickly during their retreat and only a few documents have survived.

---------- Post added at 16:22 ---------- Previous post was at 16:17 ----------

http://youtu.be/3o0H39B50Cs

Photos from on the social network page of the Donetsk Republik show that the terrorists have been trained in russia as early as 2009.

Edited August 1, 2014 by beastcat

[mistyronin 1181]

( Aljazeera ) Ukraine troops ambushed by pro-Russian rebels

At least 10 Ukrainian soldiers have been killed close to the wreckage site of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 as their convoy was ambushed by pro-Russian separatists.

The deadly attack took place early on Friday, less than 20km from the crash site, which has been the object of sustained battles for several days and still remains in rebel hands.

Ukraine's security spokesman, Vladislav Seleznev, slammed the rebels for violating a UN brokered "day of quiet," calling for a halt in fighting in the area.

"The militants are behaving in a cowardly and shameless fashion," Seleznev said.

[Tonci87 163]

New vice report about the Tatars in Crimea.

Basically the things promised to them by Putin haven't been fullfilled

they are beeing oppressed

people have dissapeared and executed

they don't trust Russia.