Ukraine General

[mistyronin 1181]

but EU forces it and it is factor that make afraid of those people in eastern Ukraine, simple example - death penalty, 78% people from my country were for it , when it was ceased because of EU, another example - very strong in Poland church and traditional family man-woman, now our parliament says there will be no refferendum but gay-marriages will be forced, the same with EURO currency - there will be no refferndum, but Brussels will will be forced etc.

You have missed this:

But obviously there are the same basic rights in all the Union.

With the homosexuals is gonna happen the same like with the abortion, end of executions, divorce, women suffrage or the end of slavery or second classes. Its gonna be normalized all over the world ( in fact thats whats already happening in the US, day by day more states are approving the homosexual marriage, until they will be all )

Basic EU rights are the human basic rights ( from the UN declaration ): universal vote, free sexual orientation ( obviously between adults and with consent ), free speech; no racial, political, religious, sexual discrimination ( so gays have the same right to have marriage ), etc.

And obviously that is the base for the Union, and a requirement to get inside. Which means that in all the countries the entry to the EU was voted by their population, which agree to that.

If any country don't agree, they can abandon the Union. As for example UK is thinking to do.

No country is FORCED to join the EU or to keep inside it.

Edited May 3, 2014 by MistyRonin

[barakokula31 10]

but EU forces it and it is factor that make afraid of those people in eastern Ukraine, simple example - death penalty, 78% people from my country were for it , when it was ceased because of EU, another example - very strong in Poland church and traditional family man-woman, now our parliament says there will be no refferendum but gay-marriages will be forced

You realise that we live in the 21st century now, don't you?

Edited May 3, 2014 by barakokula31

[vilas 477]

which agree to that

before join they were saying that it is no-border no-customs no-passport travel ECONOMICAL zone, and those people do not want it, and i do understand them

EU was told to be about ECONOMY (no need to get any papers when i do shopping in other country, no need to do paperwork when i travel to see Roma, Paris, Vienna)

You realise this we live in the 21st century now, don't you?

raping kids is also symbol of being modern ?

[Rydygier 1317]

President of Poland: Putin like Empress Catherine

Russia does not want to let the presidential elections in Ukraine. Polish President said in the Program 1 of Polish Radio that the crisis in eastern Ukraine is still triggered by Russia. Bronislaw Komorowski reminded that calmly conducted presidential elections scheduled for May would give full legitimacy of the current authorities in Ukraine and stabilize the situation in the country.

The president said that he sees a historical analogy between contemporary events in Ukraine and the situation in Poland during the adoption of the Constitution of May 3. He recalled that over 200 years ago, the modernization of our country and its decoupling also opposed Russia. Empress Catherine intervened to keep the relationship unreformed, weak Republic - President added. In his opinion, the same scenario played out now in Ukraine.

http://www.dziennik.pl/artykuly/457858,zaciete-walki-o-kramatorsk-separatysci-strzelaja-do-cywilow.html

The situation in Odessa and Slavic calmed down. However, in Kramatorsk ongoing fighting between militias and the army. According to the head of the Ukrainian antiterrorirsts it is no longer a revolt, but a regular war.

According to the management of anti-terrorist operation, shot a person nicknamed "Daisy" responsible for communications with Igor Girkinem, the Russian military intelligence officer who manages fighters in Slavonic. In this city were destroyed also snipers positions in residential and public buildings. Terrorists also wanted to paralyze the work of the local railway station and poison the water in Gorlovka. They did not make it. Here arrested closest associate of another famous saboteur nicknamed "Abwehr". The management of anti-terrorist operation emphasizes that it runs under extremely difficult conditions because residents are exploited by separatists, as human shields.

[mistyronin 1181]

before join they were saying that it is no-border no-customs no-passport travel ECONOMICAL zone, and those people do not want it, and i do understand them

EU was told to be about ECONOMY (no need to get any papers when i do shopping in other country, no need to do paperwork when i travel to see Roma, Paris, Vienna)

What you said could be valid before 1980.

Poland joined the EU in 2004, when the Union was way more than a economic union, was even more than a political union.

I even studied comunitary right before 2000. So no way polish people could have been confused or missguided.

Just look at the statistics of the Poland's referendum of 2003.

[barakokula31 10]

raping kids is also symbol of being modern ?

No, I never said that. I said death punishments and homophobia are a symbol of not being modern.

[vilas 477]

I even studied comunitary right before 2000. So no way polish people could have been confused or missguided.

i remember what our TV was saying "you can travel without passport, you can work without permission, you can buy stuff in Czech, Germany, they can buy stuff from you directly, no customs- lower price, EU technical standards, EU will give us lot of money, we will be rich" etc. of course we were misinformed, but even this map shows you difference in eastern part and western part (i am from this western part), but then we had over 20% of unemployment and we thought ONLY about money and jobs and emigration to be rich (majority of those 6% of Poles that left country made that in first years they could work in EU, they left Poland 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, later it was smaller cause "i cannot leave my family, my kid, my woman" i not emigrated due to afraid of being lonely cause my woman was opposite to leave and i heard stories that our girl marry locals for money and leave our boys, so i stayed in PL also "because i do not feel comfortable in other places that one place i know", i am conservative) ,

but apart from this - now i see clearly why those people shown on BBC report are so focused to be closer to Russia, shame that Putin acts imperialistic cause it changes to suspicion "this is about Putin interests not about people there" (if people there care, cause we do not know what is real support for separatism, maybe it is just 30% most active people and rest is passive, maybe 60% and than Ukraine will have problem, cause those people will never agree and scenario will be repeating from time to time without serious authonomy)

Edited May 3, 2014 by vilas

[Rydygier 1317]

No, I never said that. I said death punishments and homophobia are a symbol of not being modern.

Question is, why are you suddenly saying such strange thesis in this topic? Unless you want to see this thread closed soon due to offtop flame, I can easily forsee. Start separate thread about that, if you think, this is worthy of discussion and that discussion has any chances for survival before closed by mods...

http://www.wprost.pl/ar/446509/MSZ-i-MON-dziekuja-za-pomoc-w-uwolnieniu-zakladnikow/

"Poland welcomes the release of military inspectors Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, including a citizen of the Republic of Poland, held hostage by pro-Russian separatists in Slavonic" - said in a statement. The letter included a thank you to the organization and the people involved in the release of the hostages. "At the same time strongly condemn kidnapping as a means of attaining any political purposes" - written.

"We hope that this unfortunate incident will not affect the activities of the Special OSCE monitoring mission, whose task is to monitor and stabilize the situation in Ukraine and other OSCE mission on the Dnieper. Poland confirms its support for the stabilization of Ukraine conducted under the aegis of the OSCE. Definitely condemn performers and instigators of actions to destabilize the situation in Ukraine and the detriment of its security and territorial integrity "

[mistyronin 1181]

i remember what our TV was saying "you can travel without passport, you can work without permission, you can buy stuff in Czech, Germany, they can buy stuff from you directly, no customs- lower price, EU technical standards, EU will give us lot of money, we will be rich" etc. of course we were misinformed, but even this map shows you difference in eastern part and western part (i am from this western part), but then we had over 20% of unemployment and we thought ONLY about money and jobs and emigration to be rich (majority of those 6% of Poles that left country made that in first years they could work in EU, they left Poland 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, later it was smaller cause "i cannot leave my family, my kid, my woman" )

Again, no one is forced to be in the EU, UK has been for long planning to abandon it. Poland can do the same and then have their own rules.

Question is, why are you suddenly saying such strange thesis in this topic?

Hahaha yeah, don't get scared. It has it's kind of point, although I understand that without reading the previous messages this sounds Off-Topic.

We were talking about the possible motives of the Russian Speaking Ukrainian to instead of try to fight for their rights politically like in democratic countries, they decided in just a few weeks to instead take the weapons and terrorize.

[Tonci87 163]

Can we please not turn this into a EU thread? Thanks.

[negah 26]

but EU forces it and it is factor that make afraid of those people in eastern Ukraine, simple example - death penalty, 78% people from my country were for it , when it was ceased because of EU, another example - very strong in Poland church and traditional family man-woman, now our parliament says there will be no refferendum but gay-marriages will be forced, the same with EURO currency - there will be no refferndum, but Brussels will will be forced etc.

this is what those people shown by ArtTem on BBC interview were talking

noone will ask Poles about EURO currency - they will simply make EURO here, noone will ask about Gay marriages, they will simply do it , noone asks us about death penalty , they simply ceased it, while majority of us believe that pedophiles should be eliminated (we still are angry that one man who killed rapist of his small daughter get 25 years, internet websites are full of anger and information about one poor guy who get 25 years sentence for killing scum who hurted his child, for us he is hero, probably in Russia , USA, Arab countries if you killed pedo who raped your small kid, you would be free, in EU you get life sentence while robber who robbed you is free - it is not moral, it is insane that criminals in EU are "uber human" and they make "hate speech" law, so when robber will rob me on street he is free, if i say that i do not like someone from other religion i can be arrested ) , they are saying about The Netherland or Belgium where pedos want to even have party of pedos etc.

if you kill man doing robbery you get lower sentence than when you kill man who raped your kid, it is totally insane ,

this is what people in East of Ukraine afraid , Putin makes law the way Russian feel it, in some areas much better law than our own (i do not know how Russian law is up to self defence against criminal , in this i love US law)

in some areas Russia has much more to offer to those people there in east UA than EU (but Putin is danger to us, to our economy, to our safety, to our taxes cause we again must spend bilions on army instead of hospitals)

I live in Germany, one of the main supporters of the EU, and I do understand you very well. Many people in Germany are very much dissatisfied with the EU, EURO and ridiculous laws.

Whole parties (eg AfD, Alternative for Germany) are based on the idea of abandoning the EU, though I doubt theyll achieve anything. Germany's top industrialists are getting richer due to EU serving as huge and easily accesible market for Germany while the middle and lower class are suffering from ever growing taxes and stupid laws.

And sorry for continuing the EU theme.

[vilas 477]

so EU issue could be in future continued with another pro-Russian uprisings, if now Ukraine won't divide (we do not know how this end which now happens ) than in future it can be apart - half of country (Ukraine) doesn't want opposite things that western part of UA wants

[Rydygier 1317]

http://wiadomosci.dziennik.pl/polityka/artykuly/457850,konflikt-na-ukrainie-donald-tusk-to-wojna-z-rosja.html

Harsh words of Donald Tusk. According to the Prime Minister, Ukraine goes undeclared war with Russia. In his view, Western diplomacy did not work and it's time for more decisive action.

The head of government during a briefing admitted that the diplomatic activities of the West did not bring the desired results, and in Ukraine still comes to the escalation of tensions. In fact, we are now faced with an armed confrontation, organized not by the protesters, but by the state. In this case Russia - said Donald Tusk. He recognized that if there is no space for diplomatic action is needed is the political mobilization of the EU, the USA and Canada in order to protect the state by escalating.

Prime Minister also referred to the sounds coming from the West to Vladimir Putin, so he involve in resolving the conflict in Ukraine. Donald Tusk called unfortunate these appeals. He said that a more appropriate call would be to the Russian president's to stop involving in to the problems of Ukraine.

[mistyronin 1181]

Well, Putin said yesterday that there are no possible peaceful options, so... the thing is to know how and when Russia is gonna strike.

BTW RT is already calling vicious mob to the Ukrainians yesterday in Odessa:

( RT ) Odessa slaughter: How vicious mob burnt Ukraine anti-govt activists alive (GRAPHIC IMAGES)

It's sadly funny, because to all of us who were watching the stream video, it's pretty obvious that were the molotov cocktails thrown by the pro-Russian from the roof, the ones that ignited the ground level wooden barricades that set the fire inside.

But not only that, for any of us who watched, we saw how pro-Ukraine demonstrators were the first to carry a structure there, to allow their "enemies" in the upper floors to save their lives, they even were throwing ropes.

Later the riot police went there, organized a perimeter so the fire trucks could reach their cranes to save the rest of the people.

I guess that wouldn't sell much in Russia.

- - - - -

BTW the journalist from The Guardian that I complained about him, for lying about the Ukrainians being responsable, now seems to have taken a more neutral stance:

From his twitter:

Nobody will ever know who was "responsible" for trade union building fire. It was chaos, both sides lobbing Molotovs all over the place.

Edited May 3, 2014 by MistyRonin
orthography

[sudayev 27]

As we know Russia with president Putin is a country always supporting all kinds of freedom movements, democratic initiatives and ethnic minorities as well - tolerates and encourages other peoples sticking Russian flags over buildings in other countries, but when someone decides do to the same thing in Russia face severe charges.

Some people have placed German flag over Russian office building, now they are facing seven years for hooliganism and related crime.

http://belsat.eu/pl/wiadomosci/a,19539,nawet-7-lat-za-wiezienia-za-wywieszenie-niemieckiej-flagi-w-kaliningradzie.html (pl)

http://kaliningradfirst.ru/?p=173536

Edited May 3, 2014 by Sudayev

[Sub-Human 10]

This whole deal is sad beyond words. Putin took two friendly and brotherly nations and made them enemies. He's a Class A terrorist!

[mistyronin 1181]

BTW what I told you before, with the pro-Ukrainians carrying a structure to help the pro-Russians that were in the building in fire, and the police helping the firefighters can be seen in the video I link below ( from the BBC ):

Ukraine crisis: Dozens killed in Odessa fire amid clashes

[sudayev 27]

This video shows who is who in Odessa.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=44b_1399129771

A group of armed gunmen and "baseball players" dressed in assorted military clothes is taking shelter and returns fire from behind police cordon quickly after being chased by people with yellow blue flags of Ukraine.

[vilas 477]

because in this region Ukrainian police took side of pro-Russian side (vs. Ukrainian gov.)

these people really DO not want to live under Ukrainian gov. , if you have area when "minority" is majority - it is problem, Ukrainians are minority there although it is Ukrainian administrative territory - it is problem

when minority is 5%, 1%, 8% it is not problem, when "minority" is 40% it becomes "different" : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Russians_Ukraine_2001.PNG (the same can happen anywhere if it is ethnic or religious)

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ukraine_census_2001_Russian.svg language map

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ukrainian_parliamentary_election,_2007_(first_place_results).PNG < political map

so when you have such big minority + other country is better ruled (better in this case means: lower corruption , stronger police, much bigger salaries, much bigger social care, much better job condition) than also some native Ukrainians do want to join this other side (seeing corruption for example and ruling Oligarchy and being in regions when you have all Ukrainian industry located)

of course would be interesting to know real - Russia support in voting, cause maybe this 30% want to rule over 70% and they are most active, maybe to this 30% other 40% join, we do not know this so far !

main stuff for Ukraine to fight with - is fight with corruption and delete oligarchy (businesman cannot be like prince in middleages)

i do not believe it can be settled neither peacefully nor those people could live together after all this,

Edited May 3, 2014 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

Vilas, that minorities and majorities that you are talking about were living peacefully a few months ago.

Then when Ukraine started to turn to the EU, Russia sent all his heavy propaganda artillery, and invaded militarily part of the country. It's not a problem of ethnicities but a battle of geopolitics in which Russia wants to keep its influence in Ukraine and maintain it as a puppet like they do in Belarus.

[vilas 477]

not exactly MistyRonin,

in Ukraine people start to fight with corruption and voted praviously gov. of Yanuk which resigned from joining EU , Maidan started also because West Ukrainians wanted to EU , while rest of country NOT ,

new Ukrainian government : said that Ukraine will have 1 language and join EU,

so those who felt secure (and lived peacefully) speaking Russian and not thinking about being in EU before Maidan indeed lived in peace (as you said yourself - EU is not only economical)

than those people felt it is not for them when situation changed,

i think that after Maidan veeeeeeeeeeeery soon should be voting on new gov. and eventual pro- or not pro EU steps, if majority votes NO, than should be NO,

it was not that "all Ukraine want to EU and bad evil Putin sends Yanuk to shoot them"

it was :

people voted Yanuk, Yanuk said NO to EU, than Maidan started (cause western part of UA wants to EU)

than shooting started (still we do not know who made it )

than Russians and pro-Russians (anti-EU) said "no to one united Ukraine in EU" - i think

Edited May 3, 2014 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

Some people have placed German flag over Russian office building, now they are facing seven years for hooliganism and related crime.

My Russian is not outstanding and with the help of the Google translator I have seen that in one of your links says:

In Kaliningrad, the court arrested two months three opposition from some public self-defense Committee - Oleg Savva, Michael Feldman and Dmitry Fonarev

In any case I think that a couple of months is a too strong punishment for that offense. But I'm pretty sure that in almost all the countries of the world to change the flag in an official building is a hooliganism offence.

new Ukrainian government : said that Ukraine will have 1 language and join EU,

so those who felt secure (and lived peacefully) speaking Russian and not thinking about being in EU (as you said yourself - EU is not only economical) than those people felt it is not for them

I do agree, and I said before that the Russian speaking minority has rights that must be respected. But rights battles are fought with demonstrations, with politics, with votes; But NEVER with assault rifles and armed uprisings.

The ones who took the weapons in Eastern Ukraine, didn't even give a chance to dialog. They preferred weapons and terrorize the population, ergo they deserve to be dealt like the criminals they are.

But that doesn't mean that there is still a pending dialog with the Russian speaking minority. Who IMO have the right, peacefully to decide their future.

Edited May 3, 2014 by MistyRonin

[sudayev 27]

these people really DO not want to live under Ukrainian gov. , if you have area when "minority" is majority - it is problem, Ukrainians are minority there although it is Ukrainian administrative territory - it is problem

Problem? According to who?

Vilas sorry, but I think your bit wrong. According to census in Ukraine only 20% of this people declared as Russians http://2001.ukrcensus.gov.ua/results/general/nationality/odesa/

We're bit straying off the main topic while discussing about ethnic composition.

Anyways this video is only showing that Police is taking sides. And it only shows a level of corruption in this country. Where police instead of policing laws, protecting & serving the community is simply taking side in the conflict. Who knows maybe these thugs hiding behind the police are cops themselves and they were told by their superiors to act like that. In bandit states of east everything can happen. We don't know anything about police chief in this city. Which side he's supporting now, who was he during the days of Januko and on whose payroll chief of police is (money can buy). These regular cops have nothing to talk besides taking orders, otherwise they can loose they not so good but stable job.

This whole Ukraine built upon soviet state wasn't an truly independent state at all, in fact being corrupted to the core and until the Maidan events, UA was meant to look like a "normal and sovereign state".It was a lie to the free world, tragic event we're witnessing have shown naked truth about satellite country led by viceroy Yanukovych and his predecessors eating from Moscow's hand. Stalin had a plan in doing serious multi-culti movements, so now his "students" can make serious benefits out of it while still shaking the region by proper activation of "minorities" we are hearing recently, and in case of their danger - step in with military action - like in Crimea or now in Odessa, where there's only a 100km from Russian lodgement in puppet region of Trans-Dniester.

Edited May 3, 2014 by Sudayev

[vilas 477]

The ones who took the weapons in Eastern Ukraine, didn't even give a chance to dialog. They preferred weapons and terrorize the population, ergo they deserve to be dealt like the criminals they are.

what dialog you propose ?

one side says "we want to EU" , other side says "never to EU" , how you imagine compromise in such situation ?

can you give me example of compromise solution ?

western part of Ua is different than eastern part of Ua , okay , imagine there would be voting and you have result 50/50 or 49/51 or 51/49 ?

Yanuk resigned from EU joining process, new gov. signed deal but we do not know if new gov. would win election, elections are next month, so they rule few months without election signing international deals ?

what if they will loose election but deal is signed ?

tell me how you imagine their dialog ?

- we gonna join EU

- no , never

- yes we will

- no , we don't

- yes we do

- no, we won't

how you later imagine forcing will of 51% over 49% who is totally opposite ?

if there was situation 90% for, 10% against it would be different,

but what you propose when 51% say "you must obey" to 49% ? this 49% will not agree,

would be good to have already voting on Ukraine and new parliament voted there by all Ukrainians to know what and which way gonna be

btw. do they terrorize population or they seen as freedom fighters? you do not know it in those regions , maybe in those regions terrorizing is new Ukraine government ? you do not know it when you say about population there, maybe those separatists have 80% support there ?

Problem? According to who?

general problem, not solid society is having diferent goals which sometimes are hard to compromise together, especially when one side enforces on other side, less differences = less reasons to conflicts = common goal

Edited May 3, 2014 by vilas

[mistyronin 1181]

what dialog you propose ?

one side says "we want to EU" , other side says "never to EU" , how you imagine compromise in such situation ?

can you give me example of compromise solution ?

Of course.

I could talk about extreme cases like South Africa with Nelson Mandela.

But let me explain one case that I think its more similar to this one. And it even has some Russian part:

Ã…land Islands ( conflict between ethnic Swedish speaking people and nationalistic Finnish, after Finland's independence from Russia )

The Ã…land crisis was one of the first issues put up for arbitration by the League of Nations on its formation. The Ã…land Islands' population's demand for self-determination was not met and sovereignty over the islands was retained by Finland, but international guarantees were given to allow the population to pursue its own culture, relieving the threat of forced assimilation by Finnish culture as perceived by the islanders