Ukraine General

[ProfTournesol 956]

That's true:

What's amazing in that he was appointed yesterday.

[mistyronin 1181]

Are you sure that such protest is sponsored by average Kyiv citizens?:D All those food, aids, tents, weapons, fuel, transport, storming of local buildings, leak of databases with names of anti-maidan officials and MVD servicemen - who gave the money for all this? Believe me, average citizens can not organize such uprising by themselves, somebody more competent does it.

I can't judge what's the average Russian level of organization, but in different EU countries that has happened. For example the movement 15M in Spain, or the British hooligans moving against the police connected through cell phones, etc.

So yeah, I believe that average citizens can find out how to organize food, aids, tents, weapons, fuel, etc. specially if a big group of them were ex-soviet soldiers who fought for example in the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan ( if you check the interviews from these last months, you can corroborate that ).

What's amazing in that he was appointed yesterday.

Probably he received an offer that he could not refuse.

[spooky lynx 73]

I can't judge what's the average Russian level of organization, but in different EU countries that has happened. For example the movement 15M in Spain, or the British hooligans moving against the police connected through cell phones, etc.

So yeah, I believe that average citizens can find out how to organize food, aids, tents, weapons, fuel, etc. specially if a big group of them were ex-soviet soldiers who fought for example in the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan ( if you check the interviews from this last months, you can corroborate that ).

One difference: both Spanish and British examples you provided hadn't a goal to overthrow local government. And maidan has such goal. You are right, Russian hooligans may organize themselves too. But until the limited level that does not include seizing any official buildings or organizing parallel authorities. And even veterans of Afghan need commanders to become potent force.

[metalcraze 290]

Except you don't need any organization to deliver food, aids, tents, fuel. You go, buy it and bring it to the tent you think needs it. Weapons? People were going with wooden sticks and shields versus bullets on 20th (I didn't even have a shield, only a helmet and a wooden bat) - what kind of "financing" or "weapons" is that?

Transport? Ukraine is not that backwards, many have own cars and it's not hard to use a mobile phone to call a friend with a car if you don't have one.

Even Maidan self-defense is not monolithic in its organization. Any "attacks" (esp. on well defended buildings) were almost always a failure even despite a sheer advantage in numbers. If only you knew how completely messed up the communication was on Feb 18th in Maryyinski park. It's the defense where we were always strong because you subconsciously know what to do.

leak of databases with names of anti-maidan officials and MVD servicemen - who gave the money for all this?

You don't need money to copy a file at your workspace and upload it to the internet. SBU is not 100% pro-government. There are people who won't stand for their neighbors being beaten up or even murdered.

If I see 60+ years old grandma spending her whatever few pension money left to bring meds (which aren't cheap) to the Mikhailivskiy Church to help wounded - I can believe in a cop sticking it up to a system too.

Believe me, average citizens can not organize such uprising by themselves, somebody more competent does it.

You forget you are telling this to a guy who was there and saw it all with his own eyes.

As I've said - there was never an organization. Maidan consists of dozens of groups and all act as they please. It's the reason why there never was a single leader or even effective leadership.

If there was an organization - it wouldn't take 3 months, 2 of which was just pointless dancing and songs. Look at Bosnia. 3 days = no government. Now that's an organization.

Edited March 2, 2014 by metalcraze

[ProfTournesol 956]

Probably he received an offer that he could not refuse.

Yeah, defection at gunpoint are as believable as referendum at gunpoint. But a part of the Ukrainian army may be relunctant to obey the newly appointed governement, and to fight the Russian army.

[blu3sman 11]

What's amazing in that he was appointed yesterday.

He ordered navy servicemen to defect, but they ignored this order. New navy commander was appointed today.

All armed forces are loyal to Kiev.

[mistyronin 1181]

Yeah, defection at gunpoint are as believable as referendum at gunpoint. But a part of the Ukrainian army may be relunctant to obey the newly appointed governement, and to fight the Russian army.

Most of Ukrainian army is conscripted, and if there's about 17% of ethnic Russians in Ukraine ( which is more than 7 million people ), its quite predictable that a similar percentage can be found in their army.

And just a small fraction of that ethnic Russians in the Ukraine's Army, would mean thousands of soldiers.

[batto 17]

This is brutal. Skip to 8:30 http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b17_1393696049

[spooky lynx 73]

Except you don't need any organization to deliver food, aids, tents, fuel. You go, buy it and bring it to the tent you think needs it. Weapons? People were going with wooden sticks and shields versus bullets on 20th (I didn't even have a shield, only a helmet and a wooden bat) - what kind of "financing" or "weapons" is that?

Transport? Ukraine is not that backwards, many have own cars and it's not hard to use a mobile phone to call a friend with a car if you don't have one.

You have to have organization to deliver everything required for such big amount of people, otherwise it would not have an ability to exist there for such a long time. It's not enough just to go and buy. Collecting money, organizing deals, finding a store where everything you need is at necessary amount. Even an organization of simple study practice in which I had taken part needed descent planning, budgeting etc. Weapons? Yes weapons that were used against 'ritual victims' that were murdered for sake of heating the maidan. And weapons that were used against MVD troops armed with batons, smoke grenades and shields. Transport - yes transport and moving lots of inhabitants from Rivno, Trenopol, Lviv, Ivan-Frankivsk. Don't be so naive, such large groups can not just think at one moment and move to Kyiv.

Even Maidan self-defense is not monolithic in its organization. Any "attacks" (esp. on well defended buildings) were almost always a failure even despite a sheer advantage in numbers. If only you knew how completely messed up the communication was on Feb 18th in Maryyinski park. It's the defense where we were always strong because you subconsciously know what to do.

Pravy sektor and Svolota played key role, I suppose you won't deny this, yes?

You don't need money to copy a file at your workspace and upload it to the internet. SBU is not 100% pro-government. There are people who won't stand for their neighbors being beaten up or even murdered.

If I see 60+ years old grandma spending her whatever few pension money left to bring meds (which aren't cheap) to the Mikhailivskiy Church to help wounded - I can believe in a cop sticking it up to a system too.

You need a order to create such file at first, aren't you? Collecting personal data of all those who do not share maidan ideas (including long list of bloggers who write anything against maidan) - all this must be ordered.

You forget you are telling this to a guy who was there and saw it all with his own eyes.

As I've said - there was never an organization. Maidan consists of dozens of groups and all act as they please. It's the reason why there never was a single leader or even effective leadership.

If there was an organization - it wouldn't take 3 months, 2 of which was just pointless dancing and songs. Look at Bosnia. 3 days = no government. Now that's an organization.

If you haven't seen organization - it doesn't matter is wasn't.

[vilas 477]

according to our press NATO (after extraordinary meeting which ended 30 minutes ago) will ask EU, UN to look for solution, ask Russia to lower tension and ask Ukraine to safe minorities right - as usual - nothing important except political bla bla bla "fix yourself"

[Tonci87 163]

You have to have organization to deliver everything required for such big amount of people, otherwise it would not have an ability to exist there for such a long time. It's not enough just to go and buy. Collecting money, organizing deals, finding a store where everything you need is at necessary amount. Even an organization of simple study practice in which I had taken part needed descent planning, budgeting etc. Weapons? Yes weapons that were used against 'ritual victims' that were murdered for sake of heating the maidan. And weapons that were used against MVD troops armed with batons, smoke grenades and shields. Transport - yes transport and moving lots of inhabitants from Rivno, Trenopol, Lviv, Ivan-Frankivsk. Don't be so naive, such large groups can not just think at one moment and move to Kyiv.

Pravy sektor and Svolota played key role, I suppose you won't deny this, yes?

You need a order to create such file at first, aren't you? Collecting personal data of all those who do not share maidan ideas (including long list of bloggers who write anything against maidan) - all this must be ordered.

If you haven't seen organization - it doesn't matter is wasn't.

@Spooky I think you underestimate human ingenuity. Judging by what I saw of the protests there really wasn´t that much organisation involved, most of the stuff seemed pretty spontaneus.

When Croatia declared it´s independence and the war started people started to organize themselves. You don´t always need a command structure to do this.

EDIT:

@batto People who beat other people that can´t defend themselves like seen in that video usually have a very small penis and very low confidence. It´s even more shamefull that the police and the military guys are watching this without intervening.

Since Metalcraze was on the Maidan I would like him to write about his personal experiences. I believe most of what we saw was a little bit influenced by east or west propaganda. I hope you didn´t get hurt?

Edited March 2, 2014 by Tonci87

[Nicholas 5]

New head of Ukraine's navy defects in Crimea - BBC News

The newly appointed head of Ukraine's navy has sworn allegiance to the Crimea region, in the presence of its unrecognised pro-Russian leader.

Russia says Crimea deployments based on agreements with Ukraine - Euro News

“We have an agreement with Ukraine on the presence of the Russian Black Sea fleet with a base in Sevastopol, and we are acting within the framework of that agreement,†he told reporters after a closed-door meeting of the UN Security Council.

[ProfTournesol 956]

“We have an agreement with Ukraine on the presence of the Russian Black Sea fleet with a base in Sevastopol, and we are acting within the framework of that agreement,†he told reporters after a closed-door meeting of the UN Security Council.

Lol, what a joke. One good step for the Russians would be that they cease to take the whole world for a bunch of idiots.

[vilas 477]

now when i look at it from distance it looks for me like this:

- Ukrainians dethroned corrupted politicians,

- Ukrainian parliament moved back legal regulation in which previously Yanukovich put Russian language as second official language,

- Russia started to moan and make problems in Crymean area, and secured dethroned corrupted ex president

but i doubt that this Russian language is case,

i believe that main case is that new government will not be puppet , anyway it is sad when people change their government and someone from abroad do not allow people to have their own chosen government

Lol, what a joke. One good step for the Russians would be that they cease to take the whole world for a bunch of idiots.

you may not know what "amendments" Yanukovich signed, what if Yanukovich sold Ukraine for 1 Rubel to Putin in last minute ? Polish government sold many things for symbolic dollar

Edited March 2, 2014 by vilas

[Nicholas 5]

you may not know what "amendments" Yanukovich signed, what if Yanukovich sold Ukraine for 1 Rubel to Putin in last minute ? Polish government sold many things for symbolic dollar

That's my thought too. I wonder what Yanukovich may have done behind closed doors in his final hours.

[spooky lynx 73]

Some users compare current mess with Poland'39, but I'd say it looks like such operations as "Power Pack", "Urgent Fury", Bay of Pigs invasion, "Just Cause" and "Uphold Democracy".

@Spooky I think you underestimate human ingenuity. Judging by what I saw of the protests there really wasn´t that much organisation involved, most of the stuff seemed pretty spontaneus.

When Croatia declared it´s independence and the war started people started to organize themselves. You don´t always need a command structure to do this.

Good organization means spontaneous look for average people. Sure, noone will walk with signs 'riot chief', 'uprising financist' etc. Everything must be looking as spontaneous, otherwise it will fail in a day. Balkan mess is not an exception. Just plain crowd won't be able to do anything without proper directors, believe me. My country faced plenty of unrests and uprisings too.

now when i look at it from distance it looks for me like this:

- Ukrainians dethroned corrupted politicians,

- Ukrainian parliament moved back legal regulation in which previously Yanukovich put Russian language as second official language,

- Russia started to moan and make problems in Crymean area, and secured dethroned corrupted ex president

- Corrupted politicians were in Ukraine since 1992. I'd remind you that Yanuk's election campaign was based on struggle with corruption of Yushenko's regime.

- Rada stepped back after serious unrest were started at South-Eastern regions and local councils started to refuse obeying Rada one by one.

- Problems in Crimea occured after far right groups became too active within opposition.

but i doubt that this Russian language is case,

i believe that main case is that new government will not be puppet , anyway it is sad when people change their government and someone from abroad do not allow people to have their own chosen government

Again, Yanuk's government wasn't puppet, he tried to seat at two chairs simultaneously, behaving as whore - "I'll take the side of those who will pay more". He strafed from one side to another and than back.

you may not know what "amendments" Yanukovich signed, what if Yanukovich sold Ukraine for 1 Rubel to Putin in last minute ? Polish government sold many things for symbolic dollar

That wouldn't be bad for Ukraine IMHO. There are many ties within industry, reunion will remove the borders and remake many of ex-USSR ties. Large part of Ukrainian industry is oriented to Russian market, we share many common technologies. For such ventures as Motor-Sich, Antonov removing borders will ease the business. We had to decomiss many modern tanks such as T-80UD because buying spare parts from foreign country (Ukraine) was rather difficult.

Edited March 2, 2014 by Spooky Lynx

[scrim 1]

This is brutal. Skip to 8:30 http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b17_1393696049

Ah, no mob like a lynch mob.

No Lynx, none of those were about splitting a country in half, or outright stealing it.

Forcing military leaders to swear allegiance to new, illegitimate sources of power instead of the central government. That's the opposite of preventing a civil war, which is what some have claimed Russia is doing.

[spooky lynx 73]

Forcing military leaders to swear allegiance to new, illegitimate sources of power instead of the central government. That's the opposite of preventing a civil war, which is what some have claimed Russia is doing.

1) Proof of forcing? You know, people may have some other idea and find Rada itself illegitimate.

2) That 'central government's legit is disputable because thay hand't used any legal procedure of ousting Yanuk. Revolt is not listed as legal way of changing the officials.

[vilas 477]

what is in Crimean area Russian nationality percentage ? because so far we discuss different things but is there 80%, 90% or 30% of Russians ?

wiki says 60%, is it true? and Ukrainians there only 24% and Tatars 10-11%, how do Tatars fell , closer to Ukrainians or not to any side ?

Edited March 2, 2014 by vilas

[krzychuzokecia 714]

2) That 'central government's legit is disputable because thay hand't used any legal procedure of ousting Yanuk. Revolt is not listed as legal way of changing the officials.

Do You even know who is the "supreme ruler" in democarcy? Is it government, or maybe a ballot box? No, it's the people. This is who constitutes the country, and who makes law. So, if everything is fine, they go by the book: vote and pay taxes. But when SHTF they overthrow any government they treat as "unrightful". And they have every right to do so - because they make rights. In democracy.

Again, Yanuk's government wasn't puppet, he tried to seat at two chairs simultaneously, behaving as whore - "I'll take the side of those who will pay more". He strafed from one side to another and than back.

OK, I can admit that he was "more than a puppet". Actually, he did what he could to sign an agreement with EU, but the Union wasn't interested. He was also the one who changed the bad gas deal with Russia, which was signed by Timoshenko. But Maidan wasn't about Timoshenko (when she left the prison, nobody greet her with flowers) - Maidan was about radical change - change symbolized by an Ukraine-EU agreement. When Yanukovych failed to make it, people decided to change him. And nobody cared if he did all the best, or not - he was just inefficient.

how do Tatars fell , closer to Ukrainians or not to any side ?

Tatars are actually pro-ukrainian, because they're frightened that Russian will do to them what they did in Soviet times: mass oppression and repression.

Edited March 2, 2014 by krzychuzokecia

[vilas 477]

on one website i found funny pictures "Russian media show", those picture show for example picture from Russian media there is "large group of Russians protesting" while photo made from distance show several people collected on wide small area, but when phtography is taken from their font, they look like huuuuge crowd,

of course every propaganda make such actions,

--------------

Spooky - yes, Krzychu is right, in democracy when people do not like government - this government must go away, this is difference between "voted for 4 years regime" and democracy, that when people do not like current gov. this gov. resigns - it is matter of civilisation and democracy, saying by Putin that Yanukovich is illegally dethroned is bullshit, in democracy tax payer is the boss, in many western countries serious scanadal was causing resignation of gov. , in regime when people do riots against corruption they are beaten by police,

of course i say about "ideal" , i know it differs in many countries, but in highest civilised societies like Scandinavian or Swiss, when minister would broke trafffic rule and caused accident he would resign , in our countries not at all

[comm_yuri 10]

First of all those "protests" and "revolts" are farce. Only some few thousands were organized from Russia and gathered in Eastern parts of Ukraine and Crimea to wave the Russian flag and take buildings, mount flags on them etc. People can't do shit because armed Russian military personnel are aiding those small diversionary groups in achieving their goals. Fact is only violence from Russian side so far. Kicking out Kiev supporters in quite brutal manner, kicking people while they are lying half dead on the ground. Deploying massive military force near border and into Crimea. Trying to disarm Ukranian troops in their own bases in Crimea, confiscating their weapons etc like they were a band of criminals on Russian soil. Btw am I the only one who heared that US is moving their Sixth Fleet towards Crimea ? I gather they want to closely surveilance Russian activities on sea and air. That force was originaly deployed closeby to protect Sochi olypmics.

Edited March 2, 2014 by Comm_Yuri

[Maio 293]

Btw am I the only one who heared that US is sending the Sixth Fleet towards Crimea ?

Source?

[Rydygier 1307]

Here was linked something about:

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?173470-Ukraine-General&p=2634862&viewfull=1#post2634862

According to this Sixth was set on stand by, an two warships was sent to watch Sevastopol. Nothing about whole 6th sent on Black Sea though, only these two vessels, that was deployed around Sochi was sent, they say.

Edited March 2, 2014 by Rydygier

[comm_yuri 10]

Source?

So far from TV, could be rumor I have no idea. They say sources come from Ukranian media agencies.

According to this Sixth was set on stand by, an two warships was sent to watch Sevastopol. Nothing about whole 6th sent on Black Sea though, only these two vessels, that was deployed around Sochi was sent, they say.

Yeah, this would fit to the assumption that they want to survail Russian activities.