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solzenicyn

Soldier protection (dev branch)

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Coulum

 

What about against unarmoured targets? I think the idea of devs were putting forth though is that the 556 simply became an inferior round because of the advances of armour and such. Thus why it is used by guerillas and "poorly" equipped armies. I don't really have a problem with that. overtime weapons become outdated. I do however still think that big guns are way to easy to handle. But thats a different topic.

 

I don't play against unarmored targets.

Every soldier has armor on by default. Gameplay should reflect that.

Both sides have weapons with 5.56 ammo AFAIK. I'm actually not sure, I always use VAS for my loadouts. I would use MK20, TRG etc but they are peashooters. It's like running into a war with a grenade only.

 

OFP was more realistic. You shot someone in the leg, they couldn't walk, shot an arm, they couldn't aim properly, player or AI.

I would like to think games evolve instead of take 2 steps backwards.

It's like a car game having rubber tires in its first incarnation but the 2015 version went back to using wooden tires.

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The US soldiers and Iranians use 6.5 mm for their rifles. And I don't find the TRG or MK20 to be peashooters, you just need to hit someplace where there isn't armour. There's also injury systems in place, the same as in OFP, shots to the leg will make you walk slower or unable to run, shots into the arms will make your aim go really bad, so I don't know what the complaints are about.

 

The only thing that might be worth considering is adding armor piercing ammo that does less damage overall but looses no damage up to a certain level of armor. AP proof body protection is really heavy, so the vests maybe need to be rebalanced as far as their weight is concerned.

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The US soldiers and Iranians use 6.5 mm for their rifles. And I don't find the TRG or MK20 to be peashooters, you just need to hit someplace where there isn't armour. There's also injury systems in place, the same as in OFP, shots to the leg will make you walk slower or unable to run, shots into the arms will make your aim go really bad, so I don't know what the complaints are about.

The complaint about the leg shot is that the one who got shot in the leg doesn't actually limb or anything. He only walks casually when he should be forced to crawl or limb or some other animation. It doesn't look authentic at all and at least I always think "why that guy doesn't run" until I remember that he was shot in the leg. It's very confusing when the guy just walks casually like nothing. In Arma 2 it was obivious if you were shot in the leg and an arm shot made the gun sway like crazy everywhere but that should be in Arma 3 also.

 

 

/BTW should we give feedback with the VR Training "dolls" or with normal Man because the results are different. One difference already is that I need two shots on a normal armoured man when I shoot behind the neck in the exposed area but with VR guy it need only one shot. So I wonder if the boxes are different and which one is the right one to give feedback? I like the armour with the VR Training dolls and they can take multiple shots in the leg and arms but a normal man the story is very different.

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I've always wondered if the Al-Qaeda guys in this complained about the lack of realism..

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2014/September/Navy-SEALs-Amazing-Survival-God-Get-Me-Home/

Ha! Picturing that I had to laugh. Exactly. Perfect example of how body armour works, and humans can be quite resilient. I don't want enemies to take 27 hits ingame, but it goes to show the wide range of reactions to be shot.

 

I did not experiment with 6.5 or other caliber rifles. :(  As for realistic, I'm not really sure what things will change/improve(?) until 2030 (armors, bullets, weapons etc.). Anyway, I understand your concerns of the system and maybe saying that it's realistic was not the right word. Maybe I should have said it's more believable.

All I know is that emptying clips in close quarters into "unarmored" soldiers just to avoid getting shot was certainly not the right way to improve gameplay IMHO.

Well now the pistols take four shots to kill the CSAT guys. I personally think that is better. Four 9mm, two 6.5. This is kind of balanced with the other factions who can take more hits (seven from 9mm), but have less coverage. And since CSAT gear isn't real, balance is all we really have to go by.

 

Anyhow, I think it's important to find the balance between realistic gameplay and playability and this system is another right step. Just to have the right amount of challenge so that we can all enjoy the game. I'd love if the game could more authentic (eg. states between living and dying with ragdoll) but unfortunately I'm afraid it's impossible that it'll happen in the near future. And I honestly want to think I'm wrong! :)

I hear you and feel the same. The whole hitpoints system, dead or alive, lack of bleeding etc. limits how realistic things can be. Best we can do is try for a realistic balance. Ie body armour/weapons give the correct magnitude even if the method is different.

 

mission design is an important aspect but game improvements is another thing. I want be able to outsmart a reasonable amount of enemy AI units and now, using this new armor system, it's a possibility (eg. headshots in close quarters). That's what I tried to say in my last post.

Agreed.

 

I don't play against unarmored targets.

Every soldier has armor on by default. Gameplay should reflect that.

Both sides have weapons with 5.56 ammo AFAIK. I'm actually not sure, I always use VAS for my loadouts. I would use MK20, TRG etc but they are peashooters.

They are a bit more effective than peashooters. Still possible to use. Just harder. But yeah they aren't overly effective against armoured units. Whats wrong with that? Its outdated weaponry. Its like complaining that bow and arrows should be more effective. The 5.56, in most cases, has become an inferior round in this setting. At least that's the way I see it. Its the shitty weapons for the weaker factions (only greenback and guerrilla blufor has em).

 

/BTW should we give feedback with the VR Training "dolls" or with normal Man because the results are different. One difference already is that I need two shots on a normal armoured man when I shoot behind the neck in the exposed area but with VR guy it need only one shot. So I wonder if the boxes are different and which one is the right one to give feedback? I like the armour with the VR Training dolls and they can take multiple shots in the leg and arms but a normal man the story is very different.

Very good question. The VR dolls do seem to work more as expected. Devs?

 

Tweaked: Pistol bullet damage after an accidental rogue change

Good stuff, works much more like desired. Seven shots to the carrier rig. Could be a bit higher but as it is will do the job.

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Tweaked: Legs are slightly less susceptible to damage
Tweaked: Optimized damage taken by VR entities so they are on par with other characters

That was quick!

 

I didn't try today's build yet but yesterday the wetsuit could take 6-8  MX hits to the thigh.

So are they completely impervious to small arms fire now? :icon_twisted:

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OK so the VR dolls weren't right but now they should be the same as normal man. Time to test more, but I have to say at first that the VR dolls worked more like I'd expect when I tested things yesterday. Let's see how things are now.

 

/Oh there are more places in the leg that are more critical for shot so firing lower than knee takes more than above. It can also vary bit if shot from back, front, side and so on. Also I seem to find the critical place with a rifle from the back back/head but pistol can't one shot in there and with rifle I can't get it everytime. So if you could give a weak spot in there it would be very nice.

CSAT clothes (fatigues, pilot coveralls, ghillies at least) seems to take more damage. Other fatigues are like they don't protect any more than normal clothes (so you die in one shot) but CSAT seems to take two 5.56/6.5mm and five 9mm. Intented? No wonder they seem to be terminators in this game :D I can understand if they can take more because the suit looks pretty high tech and all that but no wonder the campaign felt so unbalanced because 1 CSAT = 2 any other.

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After a quick test in the current version, wetsuits might be even more bullet-proof? 10 shots point blank to the knee. The 11th killed him.

 

Full ghillies are even worse (or better, depending on who's wearing it), 11-12 shots, and the bush is still standing.

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The complaint about the leg shot is that the one who got shot in the leg doesn't actually limb or anything. He only walks casually when he should be forced to crawl or limb or some other animation. It doesn't look authentic at all and at least I always think "why that guy doesn't run" until I remember that he was shot in the leg. It's very confusing when the guy just walks casually like nothing. In Arma 2 it was obivious if you were shot in the leg and an arm shot made the gun sway like crazy everywhere but that should be in Arma 3 also.

 

 

I feel like this could really be helped out with separate hitpoints for Left/Right legs and arms. Having seen it work in VBS3 where being shot in X leg causes you to limp in that leg, it can't be too unfeasible. I also can imagine that being shot in your non-firing arm compared to your dominate one would yield different effects to the shooter ( follow-through, stability, ext.) I can only say that the current wound effects on walking is very silly looking.

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I feel like this could really be helped out with separate hitpoints for Left/Right legs and arms. Having seen it work in VBS3 where being shot in X leg causes you to limp in that leg, it can't be too unfeasible. I also can imagine that being shot in your non-firing arm compared to your dominate one would yield different effects to the shooter ( follow-through, stability, ext.) I can only say that the current wound effects on walking is very silly looking.

and devastating hits to key body areas should leave a unit down until medical aid is provided. incapacitation  as an objecitve is a reason for choosing smaller rounds as the 'hit' an enemy force takes when having to protect, evacuate and treat wounded is far greater than when the guy is simply dead.

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  • Fixed: Wetsuit and ghillie suit damage behavior

Sorry to bother you these again, but:

Heli Pilot coveralls - legs are soft like noodles. Only the CSAT one seems in line with other uniforms.

Pilot coveralls - the same as above, all variants I assume.

Pilot helmet (at least NATO) - pretty resilient visor. Intentional?

 

Tomorrow I'll be moving above the waist with my tests. :D

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In the end this is a question of scenario/mission design. Maybe don't give a faction all that armor, if the other is equipped with 5.56mm guns for the most part. Or find other aspects to balance things out.

 

Take KOTH for example. It's not Arma's fault that every one (and their mom) runs around with a Navid/SPMG. It's just that the mission is badly designed. Instead of accumulating individual work towards "the best" equipment (which sticks permanently w/o additional costs... go figure), maybe that progression should be kept to the spawn of a single round of KOTH, where you each time start anew with cheap equippement, but can earn/unlock better stuff as the (single) game/round progresses... or what not. Many interesting mechanics can be thought of to come up with better balance and a more dynamic mission. E.g. why not give better toys to the side(s) currently losing?

 

Its not just a problem with KOTH. It's a problem with ArmA 3. There's absolutely no reason not to carry a Navid over a Katiba or MX. The Navid kills in a single shot, has tons of ammo, a high rate of fire, is very controllable, and handles no different from a rifle. Its better in almost every way and where its not, its nearly identical. In real life (speaking from my experience with the M60D and M240H), these weapons are incredibly unwieldy. I have a fairly average physique and I can only shoulder a 240 for a few seconds. This is not at all represented in ArmA 3. 

 

ArmA 3 really needs to borrow from DayZ. The weapon momentum concept where the mouse instantly moves the players view while the weapon moves on target at a rate dependent on the mass of the weapon is the best solution I've seen so far. The controls still feel responsive, unlike ArmA 2, but the player can't swing their weapon 180 degrees instantly like they can in ArmA 3. DayZ's low ready and shouldered stance system is a major upgrade too. As no one can run around with their weapon up all the time; it would be exhausting. If these things were present, MG's would no longer be the go to gun in ArmA 3.

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easy solution to this:
Introduce time-based weapon sway to simulate arms getting tired. The longer you have your weapon up, the higher the sway (excluding rested weapons and maybe prone stance). Only way to reduce/recover sway is either to rest the weapon, or to lower your weapon. Sway increase rate and maximum amount of sway would be governed by weapon weight, with exponential growth (light weapons can be held up almost infinitely - low increase rate and low maximum sway limit, medium weapons for "medium" periods, and heavy weapons like MG only for very short time - high increase rate and high sway limit). Maybe with a feature to disable this sway on easy difficulty. 
Alternatively introduce degradation of stamina from just shouldering a weapon. For MG this will result in fast exhaustion. Not the best solution though, because a soldier won't blackout just from trying to hold a gun...

 

I do not think that weapon momentum is any help whatsoever, because the impact on Arma is really small. You do not sprint around the entire time, do 360° changes midsprint and so on. The impact would only be really noticeable for "twitch-arcade-shooters" like CoD, planetside 2, BF that have this fast paced gameplay style.

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Its not just a problem with KOTH. It's a problem with ArmA 3. There's absolutely no reason not to carry a Navid over a Katiba or MX. The Navid kills in a single shot, has tons of ammo, a high rate of fire, is very controllable, and handles no different from a rifle. Its better in almost every way and where its not, its nearly identical. In real life (speaking from my experience with the M60D and M240H), these weapons are incredibly unwieldy. I have a fairly average physique and I can only shoulder a 240 for a few seconds. This is not at all represented in ArmA 3.

 

To be fair, ArmA 3 does have these weapons being more "fatigueable," and KoTH's indefatigueable perk lessens this by quite a bit. But yeah, the MMGs should be a lot more unwieldy than they are now in many situations.

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The newly implemented soldier protection (1.54) received a first version of its documentation on the Community Wiki. It will be extended soon but in the meantime, if you have any question, do not hesitate!  :292:

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Wait, so the article is suggesting that hit detection of the vest is based on named selections in the visual/res LODs of the vest model. Those selections aren't just there because they're needed for weighing the vest to the character skeleton?
 
I know the selection names in the vest match the names in the character model's hit-points LOD and the class hitpoints config, but they also match the selection names/bones in the character's visual LODs and model.cfg in order that the whole character and vest/helmet/rucksack animate in the same way via .rtm.
 
Why does the underlying character model need a hit-points LOD if the game can reference the visual LOD for hit information?

 

solzenicyn's previous explanation suggested it wasn't a model-based solution, and was instead only defining (via config) the vest's protection of multiple hitpoints within the base soldier (the new class HitpointsProtectionInfo). I.e. how much damage actually gets transfered to the unit when a shot intesects the expanded number of hit-zones in the character model's hit-points LOD.

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yes i wondered the same... it doesnt make a whole lot of sense to me. Visual LOD is way more detailed then firegeo would, so you would never use it to check anything. At the same time, hitpoint "bubbles" are predefined in the character uniform model. I think someone just didnt know what those selections (that have to be in every vest model to animate) where there fore :P

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My apologies, it turned out my knowledge of the soldier protection was outdated. I made another iteration of the documentation. The doc is still stub and will be updated and finalized soon.

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The newly implemented soldier protection (1.54) received a first version of its documentation on the Community Wiki. It will be extended soon but in the meantime, if you have any question, do not hesitate!  :292:

I have a question. What do we have to do to notice an improvement in the soldier protection system?

 

I can't seem to shoot any NATO infantry in the chest without hitting their armor. Not even when I carefully aim above the trauma plates to hit them in the neck. It's always 2-3 shots with 6.5mm. When they aren't wearing any vest at all, even a single 9mm will do the trick.

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The hitzones for the specific hitpoints do not match 100% with the visual models, as the hitzones are defined in the uniform and won't change if you equip armor.

you can use arma3diag.exe in devbranch to show hitpoint location

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The hitzones for the specific hitpoints do not match 100% with the visual models, as the hitzones are defined in the uniform and won't change if you equip armor.

you can use arma3diag.exe in devbranch to show hitpoint location

 

I see.

 

Does anyone know of a vest where the new system really comes into play?

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in the latest dev branch or even earlier, I find a problem I think it might be a bug:

We all know PP2000 or rook 40 is a very less impactive weapon. often it costs 10 bullets to kill a target wearing a carrier special rig. But in my test, one shot on thigh or coxae area may cause critical damage or even death to target in 95% chance.

So the problem is: if it is difficult to kill a well equiped target, then shoot his lower body -- Is it reasonable?

Or there is something wrong in body part HP?

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will the major config bug fixed that B_Soldier_base_F, I_G_Soldier_base_F and I_Soldier_base_F dont use the new advanced damage system (class HitPoints) (but use the default from CAManBase)?

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the advanced damage system is configured for all. Opfor base uniform is simply different in armor/shielding since it is supposed to provide actual protection - opfor vests have very little protection on the contrary however.

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Is it possible to use a different evaluation for the individual Hitpoints in the "depends" token?

class HitBody: HitChest {
    armor=1000; passThrough=0.1; explosionShielding=6; minimalHit=0.01;
    name="body"; radius=0.16; material=-1; visual="injury_body";
    depends="HitPelvis max HitAbdomen max HitDiaphragm max HitChest";
};
If i had hitpoint1 and hitpoint2, with hitpointCombined depending on 1 and 2.

Would it for example be possible to define it in such a way that hitpoint1 can only contribute 0.5 points and hitpoint2 also only 0.5 points of damage for hitpointCombined?

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