Fatigue Feedback (dev branch)

[Alwarren 2767]

"added fatigue is top priority for fun and immersion"said nobody ever. A toned down version of the system maybe.

Why do people always have to claim to speak for a majority?

[live2reap 10]

Yes. not only does it encourage patience/caution but also teamwork. If you have to take your time to flank that guy, then you best have a teamate keeping hime pinned down while you move. The flanking run you describe, lve2reap, is that of run and gun games that don't put much focus on teamwork - don't get me wrong, they can be fun still, but thats not the type of gameplay that I play arma for.

The fatigue system strikes quite a good balance between realism and options - you aren't actually forced to play a certain way. You do always have the option to drop that plate carrier and make that run around. But there will be consequences in other ways (you will die real fast without a plate carrier.)

Lol, I was expecting to be flamed so this kind of ignorant post comes as no surprise to me, but you do realize that this is still a game right? Have you ever played a game of King of the Hill before, or any competitive game mode for that matter? You aren't always lucky enough to have a teammate with you to coordinate with. Even IF sitting around doing nothing and waiting for him to call for backup when I don't have anyone in the immediate area to help wasn't the stupidest idea ever. Common sense dictates that if I just wiped out this guy's squad and he has any other friendlies in the area he is going to call for help. Seeing as the wait and see approach that you guys have suggested is not a viable option(in video game or real world tactics) I can either move to eliminate him before reinforcements have the chance to arrive, OR I can retreat from the area. I obviously chose the former, and had my character had the stamina of an average human male(let alone a trained soldier) instead of a 6 year old girl. Most likely given the fact that the enemy at the time still had no idea where I had gone, he would have been an easy threat to eliminate. With ample time to clear out before anyone could have arrived to assist him.

Also to the guy who suggested dropping the carrier plate, I never wear armor that heavy so dropping my vest would not have changed that much, if anything I should have had less trouble with stamina by the time I was trying to flank, I had already dropped several magazines of ammo and my grenades off my initial weight. You guys seem to mistake my being mobile and not having backup at the time for me being a run and gunner who plays games like call of duty. I have always preferred Tactical Shooters such as Ghost Recon(the old ones not the new ones), Rainbow Six, and Delta Force over CoD and the ilk. My first ever online shooter was Socom: US Navy Seals almost 12 years ago, I understand Tactics just fine. Do real soldiers run across for buildings in urban terrain? Maybe not, but a real soldier wouldn't sit around in a building by himself and wait for enemy reinforcements to arrive and kill him, let alone be playing a game mode that has the potential for your to unwittingly be para dropped into a town separated from your team and behind enemy lines alone and have to rely on only yourself for survival so your argument is null in this situation.

Regardless however you guys still fail to address the original argument and instead seem insistent on flaming everyone who has a different opinion than you. The original point was simply that any trained soldier who cannot run up a street the equivalent of 2 houses, make a left and run the distance of 2 more houses while carrying minimal gear(no explosives, no heavy armor, no backpacks full of stuff... just a rifle and a vest) without being out of breath and unable to run any further is a disgrace to their respective military force and should immediately leave the armed forces because that is something any average joe that is even moderately fit can do without any problems what so ever. I LIKE the system, I am a FAN of it. However that does not mean I am going to sit around and be ignorant to the obvious and unrealistic problems it has. There is no possible argument you can make that says the inability to sprint that distance without trouble is realistic and should be considered "working as intended".

Also, it is nice to see some actual vets chiming in to point out the glaring problems with the fatigue system that some people just want to pretend doesn't have any problems.

[St. Jimmy 272]

If you want to be light but still have AT with you then you need to leave stuff that you really won't need. Vest is heavy so leave that behind or change for a lighter one but you lose your armour, sacrifice that you need to do if you want to be really light, don't take pistol and any grenades and take bigger backpack if you need that.

If you want to take all the stuff with you, you need to get used to drop yourself prone, drop the backpack and the launcher and catch breath at the same time you watch the enemies. If you get under fire you raise yourself, take the backpack and launcher with you and get to the cover. In mean time you should've regain some fatigue already. Dropping backpack and/or the launcher is really effective way to regain fatigue and be still effective in combat, just don't leave your stuff behind, they can be picked very quickly back.

First time light Guerrilla figthers really got speed advantage over heavily armoured forces but naturally they can't stand as many shots without armour.

Train these things in VR:

- What you really want and what you need to take with you

- Observe how quickly you get fatigued in stances and in different speeds. Running fatigues a lot so you shouldn't use that unless you really need it

- KEEP YOUR WEAPON ALWAYS DOWN WHEN YOU MOVE. It can almost double the rate you get fatigued. This is really a big factor. Bit gamey thing but easy to master

- If you want to be combat effective all the time, then catch when the vignette effect starts to happen

- If you want to hit something while you move you need to slower yourself to the walking speed unless the enemy is really close

- When you load a magazine or a rocket, even if it does makes the gear menu bar to lose some of it your load is still the same ;)

That is how you learn to be effective all the time because if you're fatigued your weapon has pretty big sway. If you're the heaviest equipped guy in your squad say that to your squad and make them be aware of that and wait you if needed. Default loads in Arma 3 are freaking heavy especially missile specialist.

@live2reap about the King Of the Hill. Play in a server that does have fatigue disabled. I've found that some Domination servers have it disabled and some servers haven't disabled. I bet there are same kind of servers in King Of the Hill also unless there aren't enough clever admins.

[Tonci87 163]

Lol, I was expecting to be flamed so this kind of ignorant post comes as no surprise to me, but you do realize that this is still a game right? Have you ever played a game of King of the Hill before, or any competitive game mode for that matter? You aren't always lucky enough to have a teammate with you to coordinate with. Even IF sitting around doing nothing and waiting for him to call for backup when I don't have anyone in the immediate area to help wasn't the stupidest idea ever. Common sense dictates that if I just wiped out this guy's squad and he has any other friendlies in the area he is going to call for help. Seeing as the wait and see approach that you guys have suggested is not a viable option(in video game or real world tactics) I can either move to eliminate him before reinforcements have the chance to arrive, OR I can retreat from the area. I obviously chose the former, and had my character had the stamina of an average human male(let alone a trained soldier) instead of a 6 year old girl. Most likely given the fact that the enemy at the time still had no idea where I had gone, he would have been an easy threat to eliminate. With ample time to clear out before anyone could have arrived to assist him.

Also to the guy who suggested dropping the carrier plate, I never wear armor that heavy so dropping my vest would not have changed that much, if anything I should have had less trouble with stamina by the time I was trying to flank, I had already dropped several magazines of ammo and my grenades off my initial weight. You guys seem to mistake my being mobile and not having backup at the time for me being a run and gunner who plays games like call of duty. I have always preferred Tactical Shooters such as Ghost Recon(the old ones not the new ones), Rainbow Six, and Delta Force over CoD and the ilk. My first ever online shooter was Socom: US Navy Seals almost 12 years ago, I understand Tactics just fine. Do real soldiers run across for buildings in urban terrain? Maybe not, but a real soldier wouldn't sit around in a building by himself and wait for enemy reinforcements to arrive and kill him, let alone be playing a game mode that has the potential for your to unwittingly be para dropped into a town separated from your team and behind enemy lines alone and have to rely on only yourself for survival so your argument is null in this situation.

Regardless however you guys still fail to address the original argument and instead seem insistent on flaming everyone who has a different opinion than you. The original point was simply that any trained soldier who cannot run up a street the equivalent of 2 houses, make a left and run the distance of 2 more houses while carrying minimal gear(no explosives, no heavy armor, no backpacks full of stuff... just a rifle and a vest) without being out of breath and unable to run any further is a disgrace to their respective military force and should immediately leave the armed forces because that is something any average joe that is even moderately fit can do without any problems what so ever. I LIKE the system, I am a FAN of it. However that does not mean I am going to sit around and be ignorant to the obvious and unrealistic problems it has. There is no possible argument you can make that says the inability to sprint that distance without trouble is realistic and should be considered "working as intended".

Also, it is nice to see some actual vets chiming in to point out the glaring problems with the fatigue system that some people just want to pretend doesn't have any problems.

Honestly I personally haven't tried the new system yet because I'm on holidays so I can only give feedback based on the devblog, player reports and youtube videos. I really think thag most of the people complaining exsagerate a bit when they talk about the distances they can cover. If you really would have had so light gear you would have been able to run more. Were you by any chance already fatigued when you started to run? Could you maybe upload a video where you showcase how long you can run with the gear you had?

[barakokula31 10]

Have you ever played a game of King of the Hill before, or any competitive game mode for that matter? You aren't always lucky enough to have a teammate with you to coordinate with.

Arma isn't meant for solo-one-man-army-Rambos. And it's not really meant for competitive gaming, either.

You aren't always lucky enough to have a teammate with you to coordinate with.

Join a group/community/clan/realism unit. You'll always have someone to watch out for you. Pretty much every group uses a system similar to "buddy teams" (outlined by Dslyecxi in his TTP3 guide, scroll to the section just under "Fireteams") in which every player has at least one "buddy" watching out for him at all times. Doesn't that sound much easier and more fun than solo-run-and-gunning?

Regardless however you guys still fail to address the original argument and instead seem insistent on flaming everyone who has a different opinion than you. The original point was simply that any trained soldier who cannot run up a street the equivalent of 2 houses, make a left and run the distance of 2 more houses while carrying minimal gear(no explosives, no heavy armor, no backpacks full of stuff... just a rifle and a vest) without being out of breath and unable to run any further is a disgrace to their respective military force and should immediately leave the armed forces because that is something any average joe that is even moderately fit can do without any problems what so ever. I LIKE the system, I am a FAN of it. However that does not mean I am going to sit around and be ignorant to the obvious and unrealistic problems it has. There is no possible argument you can make that says the inability to sprint that distance without trouble is realistic and should be considered "working as intended".

"2 houses" is a very vague measurement unit. Which types of houses were they? Approximately how long were they?

Also, it is nice to see some actual vets chiming in to point out the glaring problems with the fatigue system that some people just want to pretend doesn't have any problems.

Speaking of some actual vets, here are two videos made by a person who served in the (Canadian?) army:

The second video is more a more detailed and in-depth explanation, whereas the first one has a very short explanation and then demonstrates how realistic fatigue and weapon sway is on a practical example.

[-Coulum- 35]

The original point was simply that any trained soldier who cannot run up a street the equivalent of 2 houses, make a left and run the distance of 2 more houses while carrying minimal gear(no explosives, no heavy armor, no backpacks full of stuff... just a rifle and a vest) without being out of breath and unable to run any further is a disgrace to their respective military force and should immediately leave the armed forces because that is something any average joe that is even moderately fit can do without any problems what so ever. I LIKE the system, I am a FAN of it. However that does not mean I am going to sit around and be ignorant to the obvious and unrealistic problems it has. There is no possible argument you can make that says the inability to sprint that distance without trouble is realistic and should be considered "working as intended".

Except what you discribe as impossible ingame, is infact possible. Soldiers in game are perfectly capable of sprinting around the block and engaging an enemy with the light gear you describe.

And that is full out sprinting. I wouldn't advise anyone to sprint anywhere to engage an enemy. Jogging would a piece of cake for the arma soldier...

[bumgie 49]

NVM. Wrong thread.

By the way. Is that on Dev branch or on stable? The video I mean.

[-Coulum- 35]

Stable 1.24.

[Bouben 3]

Stable 1.24.

Yes, I also have not any impossible aiming problems with the new system. It is challenging but definitely not impossible or even frustrating. It just needs a bit of practice and patience. For me, it works well.

---

I also have to admit that I tried the toned down version in the latest dev branch and I enjoy that one too.

[-Coulum- 35]

That vid wasn't actually to demonstrate that it is possible to shoot after being fatigued (though it does) but rather that the player is able to sprint reasonable distances, unlike claimed by live2reap and others.

As for sway, The problem with dev branch is the ease of hitting long range targets. Sniping is childplay, which is why I don't like it. In 1.24 it was still possible but you had to have a bit more patience and focus into it than dev.

[live2reap 10]

Arma isn't meant for solo-one-man-army-Rambos. And it's not really meant for competitive gaming, either.

Join a group/community/clan/realism unit. You'll always have someone to watch out for you. Pretty much every group uses a system similar to "buddy teams" (outlined by Dslyecxi in his TTP3 guide, scroll to the section just under "Fireteams") in which every player has at least one "buddy" watching out for him at all times. Doesn't that sound much easier and more fun than solo-run-and-gunning?

"2 houses" is a very vague measurement unit. Which types of houses were they? Approximately how long were they?

Speaking of some actual vets, here are two videos made by a person who served in the (Canadian?) army:

The second video is more a more detailed and in-depth explanation, whereas the first one has a very short explanation and then demonstrates how realistic fatigue and weapon sway is on a practical example.

Well this is a lot of things quoted so I guess I'll just address them in order.

1. I don't think that is a fair or accurate assessment to make. Yes, Arma is and always has been a military sim. That is the reason I picked up the game in the first place, however it has pretty much always had competitive game modes as well and to say Arma isn't ment for competitive gameplay just because it is a simulator is an unfair statement. Many people enjoy playing Arma competitively specifically BECAUSE it is a such an in depth military simulator and to exclude part of Arma's player base is pretty biased on your part. Part of it's appeal also because you usually can't be a to use your words solo-one-man-army-rambo. I never once in the scenario that I laid out was I upset over my death. I was alone with no hope for backup and died doing what I thought would be my best bet for survival. I accept that death, it happens when you are separated from your team. My complaints were and always have been with the lack of realism in a system that was intended to be realistic.

2. Thanks for the info, however I have friends that I do play with, and even when I am not playing with friends I am perfectly capable of coordinating with the teammates I have in the server. It was merely this one instance I chose as an example that I was alone, because I felt it was the best example of the fatigue system in action... I didn't think people would spend more time flaming me for being alone in the example than addressing the actual scenario.

3. Yeah, I understand it is very vague. If I get a chance and can find the spot where the encounter took place I'll record a video to demonstrate how things happened. That being said though, I pretty much understand why the system bit me in the ass that day. It was the day after the update and my first time really encountering it so I didn't really know why my fatigue was building up so crazy fast. Basically it came down to 3 things: Fatigue from the intital firefight(about 10-15% fatigue), my lack of stopping to rest at all while I ran around the corner, and the fact that prior to the update I almost always moved around with my gun raised(due to my combat style and because I feel much safer sweeping areas when my gun is in the ready and I can immediately react to any threats) before it didn't have a major impact on fatigue, but now it does and me moving the last bit of distance with my gun raised after sprinting kicked my fatigue up over the top.

4. After watching those videos I've noticed a few things that shed a little more light on how the system works, and while I still believe it is unrealistic it did give me some ideas on how to improve the system that would likely appeal to people on both sides of the issue without just toning it down.

In the first video the guy runs a relatively long distance with some light gear, which at first glance would suggest that if you are wearing light gear you should be able to run long distances with little to no problems from fatigue, and under normal circumstances this is true. It is unfortunate that we cannot see his fatigue bar in the video, however part way through you can start to hear his character breathing heavily meaning he is getting close to high fatigue. The main reason he never actually hits the slowdown point is because of the time he spends lying prone to shoot. Given the way the current system works this makes sense since your fatigue regens fastest when you are lying prone and not moving and doesn't stop just because you are shooting. Which leaves me with the same dilemma that he also(at least partially) points out in his second video. If you are extremely tired, just stopping or slowing down for a short amount of time is going to do next to nothing to actually reduce your fatigue in real life.

So for the sake of both realism and improving gameplay why not increase the amount of stamina the player has(the amount would be up to debate, but I'd say about 1.5 times what it is now), and largely increase the amount of time it takes to recover from said fatigue? It is unrealistic for someone tired from running for a while to be able to stop moving for 5 to 10 seconds and be totally good to go again. Why not make it so if a guy can sprint for 1 minute straight before hitting the fatigue wall(or however long it is depending on your gear) it also takes you an equivalent amount of time to recover from that fatigue? It would make pacing yourself on the battlefield that much more important. You could if you wanted go all out pushing the limits of your body and sprint till you couldn't sprint anymore, however you would then pay the price and have a long time to wait before you would be combat effective again. I find a hard time seeing any negatives to this concept this concept but feel free to chime in with comments/suggestions.

I don't really like the second video though in terms of showing that it is possible to shoot at max fatigue... it doesn't really show anything conclusive it just shows that if you fire enough times at a target when your scope is going crazy you will eventually hit it. He never actually tried to stop and aim at his targets so it never really addressed the problems snipers and people with DMRs have since they can't really afford to waste ammo firing an excessive amount of shots at an enemy, let alone reveal their position due to repeat firings. However since the sway is being addressed on dev branch anyways we can more or less just ignore that problem.

All in all thanks for your post though, it was the most constructive/non-flaming response I have gotten so far and I hope I answered the questions anyone else had from me. I read all the comments, but I chose to reply to the post that had the most things to address.

Edited July 20, 2014 by live2reap
Reformatting

[Bouben 3]

...so it never really addressed the problems snipers and people with DMRs have since they can't really afford to waste ammo firing an excessive amount of shots at an enemy, let alone reveal their position due to repeat firings.

I am sorry but you might be misunderstanding the sniper role.

Sniper is usually in a calm state laying somewhere hidden and taking careful shots at targets. He is not supposed to be an assault class doing a CQB or moving fast after each shot.

Marksmen are also static and camping much of the time and supporting from the rear while their mates attacks from close.

Both classes has no business in sprinting and shooting in rapid succession.

Choose your classes and gear properly and you will have fighting easier in Arma.

[the_demongod 31]

I am sorry but you might be misunderstanding the sniper role.

Sniper is usually in a calm state laying somewhere hidden and taking careful shots at targets. He is not supposed to be an assault class doing a CQB or moving fast after each shot.

Marksmen are also static and camping much of the time and supporting from the rear while their mates attacks from close.

Both classes has no business in sprinting and shooting in rapid succession.

Choose your classes and gear properly and you will have fighting easier in Arma.

This basically sums up most arguments against the new fatigue system, it's almost always because someone feels they should be able to sprint while carrying a carryall backpack with 5x 150rd 7.62 Zafir belts. That just shouldn't be possible, and not it's not, which is good.

[live2reap 10]

I am sorry but you might be misunderstanding the sniper role.

Sniper is usually in a calm state laying somewhere hidden and taking careful shots at targets. He is not supposed to be an assault class doing a CQB or moving fast after each shot.

Marksmen are also static and camping much of the time and supporting from the rear while their mates attacks from close.

Both classes has no business in sprinting and shooting in rapid succession.

Choose your classes and gear properly and you will have fighting easier in Arma.

I think you are the one misunderstanding here... that was my entire point, that snipers are supposed to take careful shots, whereas the video posted only proved that if you fire a ton of bullets you will eventually hit the target. You somehow are on an entirely different page here lol... Gotta love people who don't read.

[mr_centipede 31]

That's why not every tom dick and harry can be a sniper. You need skill. and more than that, you need patience. Besides, sniper aren't supposed to snipe anyway. They are for recon. Shoot only when necessary, then displace. And when they displace, they didn't sprint... they calmly withdraw, crawling away.

[maddogx 13]

I think you are the one misunderstanding here... that was my entire point, that snipers are supposed to take careful shots, whereas the video posted only proved that if you fire a ton of bullets you will eventually hit the target. You somehow are on an entirely different page here lol...

The video shows what happens if you try to make accurate shots immediately after sprinting more than 100m. Bouben's entire point is that snipers shouldn't be doing that, so the video proves nothing does not contradict him at all.

Gotta love people who don't read.

Indeed.

Edited July 21, 2014 by MadDogX
clarification

[-Coulum- 35]

I think you are the one misunderstanding here... that was my entire point, that snipers are supposed to take careful shots, whereas the video posted only proved that if you fire a ton of bullets you will eventually hit the target. You somehow are on an entirely different page here lol... Gotta love people who don't read.

Which video are you refering to?

If your are refering to 8:20 in

...

He is at FULL fatigue, and killing people at 1km with a 6.5mm in less than a dozen shots...

If you were to be a rested position, and take your time (Like a marksman is supposed to be(Bouben's point)) you can easily hit people out to a kilometre in one shot. You don't even have to have much skill or focus like a real sniper is supposed to have. The system is quite forgiving compared to reality. If I am missing the point as well please tell me.

If you are referring to my video, it isn't even meant to show accuracy. It is just in response to your claim that a lightly loaded soldier can't sprint around a block and engage a target in game, which is false.

That vid wasn't actually to demonstrate that it is possible to shoot after being fatigued (though it does) but rather that the player is able to sprint reasonable distances, unlike claimed by live2reap and others.

That's why not every tom dick and harry can be a sniper. You need skill. and more than that, you need patience. Besides, sniper aren't supposed to snipe anyway. They are for recon. Shoot only when necessary, then displace. And when they displace, they didn't sprint... they calmly withdraw, crawling away.

I find this isn't even the case with devbranch sway.

[live2reap 10]

Which video are you refering to?

If your are refering to 8:20 in

...

He is at FULL fatigue, and killing people at 1km with a 6.5mm in less than a dozen shots...

If you were to be a rested position, and take your time (Like a marksman is supposed to be(Bouben's point)) you can easily hit people out to a kilometre in one shot. You don't even have to have much skill or focus like a real sniper is supposed to have. The system is quite forgiving compared to reality. If I am missing the point as well please tell me.

If you are referring to my video, it isn't even meant to show accuracy. It is just in response to your claim that a lightly loaded soldier can't sprint around a block and engage a target in game, which is false.

I find this isn't even the case with devbranch sway.

Thank you. Someone actually reads posts instead of spewing mindless babble! Yes I was referring to that video. I understand that he is at full fatigue and he is successfully managing to kill armor-less targets that are standing still. My problem with it is that he uses that to argue that engaging targets 500m-1km away at full fatigue isn't difficult. Despite the fact that in MOST cases said targets wont be A. Standing Still B. Not wearing armor themselves C. Reacting to your shots and in the case of AI lying prone and returning fire with super precision accuracy or in the case actual players moving to find cover.

The only reason I brought up Sniping is because in the video he says he did it and he wasn't even using a Marksman Rifle or Sniper. He didn't demonstrate any accurate shooting in the video(though I am sure he is capable of doing so) he merely showed that against a non reactive target if you pull the trigger enough times you will eventually hit it.

I think I am going to stop posting in this thread though. I guess it was foolish of me to think that just because this is a thread about feedback that there would be a level of maturity that with the exception of a few posters, just was nowhere to be found. I might still post that video some people requested if I get around to it, but otherwise I don't see the point in attempting to have a discussion when 90% of the replies are Tl;Dr I'm just gonna flame you and have no idea what your post was about. Hell nobody even bothered to comment on my idea to make the fatigue system more realistic and still be punishing just the way everyone likes it. If I learned anything from posting in this thread though it is that there is a huge difference in opinion between Dev Branch and Stable Branch. Or maybe it is just the standard forum hive mind mentality.... who knows.

BTW, if you have read any of my previous posts you would see that I retracted my statement about running around a block and engaging a target. There were other circumstances involved that lead to the outcome I had, and in a perfect scenario you would in fact be able to do it.

[-Coulum- 35]

live2reap

First off I don't think anyone is being overly flame bating. Sorry we come across that way, but it isn't our intention.

About the sniping at full fatigue etc. what exactly is your point? I am not asking that to be rude, just not sure what your trying to get across. What everybody else is saying is that in reality sniping is a delicate tasks that requires a calm and rested condition, thus complaining that it is not possible while tired and uncalm is not reasonable.

I am glad you retracted you statement about the running around the block stuff. One thing that might have caused this confusion is because it is very hard to tell how tired you are. You might think you are at full rest, but in reality you are half fatigued - now you make that run and find that you are exhausted by the end of it and feel that your fatigue has gone down to fast. I think this is a good reason why we need a fatigue bar or something.

[Tonci87 163]

Well this is a lot of things quoted so I guess I'll just address them in order.

1. I don't think that is a fair or accurate assessment to make. Yes, Arma is and always has been a military sim. That is the reason I picked up the game in the first place, however it has pretty much always had competitive game modes as well and to say Arma isn't ment for competitive gameplay just because it is a simulator is an unfair statement. Many people enjoy playing Arma competitively specifically BECAUSE it is a such an in depth military simulator and to exclude part of Arma's player base is pretty biased on your part. Part of it's appeal also because you usually can't be a to use your words solo-one-man-army-rambo. I never once in the scenario that I laid out was I upset over my death. I was alone with no hope for backup and died doing what I thought would be my best bet for survival. I accept that death, it happens when you are separated from your team. My complaints were and always have been with the lack of realism in a system that was intended to be realistic.

2. Thanks for the info, however I have friends that I do play with, and even when I am not playing with friends I am perfectly capable of coordinating with the teammates I have in the server. It was merely this one instance I chose as an example that I was alone, because I felt it was the best example of the fatigue system in action... I didn't think people would spend more time flaming me for being alone in the example than addressing the actual scenario.

3. Yeah, I understand it is very vague. If I get a chance and can find the spot where the encounter took place I'll record a video to demonstrate how things happened. That being said though, I pretty much understand why the system bit me in the ass that day. It was the day after the update and my first time really encountering it so I didn't really know why my fatigue was building up so crazy fast. Basically it came down to 3 things: Fatigue from the intital firefight(about 10-15% fatigue), my lack of stopping to rest at all while I ran around the corner, and the fact that prior to the update I almost always moved around with my gun raised(due to my combat style and because I feel much safer sweeping areas when my gun is in the ready and I can immediately react to any threats) before it didn't have a major impact on fatigue, but now it does and me moving the last bit of distance with my gun raised after sprinting kicked my fatigue up over the top.

4. After watching those videos I've noticed a few things that shed a little more light on how the system works, and while I still believe it is unrealistic it did give me some ideas on how to improve the system that would likely appeal to people on both sides of the issue without just toning it down.

In the first video the guy runs a relatively long distance with some light gear, which at first glance would suggest that if you are wearing light gear you should be able to run long distances with little to no problems from fatigue, and under normal circumstances this is true. It is unfortunate that we cannot see his fatigue bar in the video, however part way through you can start to hear his character breathing heavily meaning he is getting close to high fatigue. The main reason he never actually hits the slowdown point is because of the time he spends lying prone to shoot. Given the way the current system works this makes sense since your fatigue regens fastest when you are lying prone and not moving and doesn't stop just because you are shooting. Which leaves me with the same dilemma that he also(at least partially) points out in his second video. If you are extremely tired, just stopping or slowing down for a short amount of time is going to do next to nothing to actually reduce your fatigue in real life.

So for the sake of both realism and improving gameplay why not increase the amount of stamina the player has(the amount would be up to debate, but I'd say about 1.5 times what it is now), and largely increase the amount of time it takes to recover from said fatigue? It is unrealistic for someone tired from running for a while to be able to stop moving for 5 to 10 seconds and be totally good to go again. Why not make it so if a guy can sprint for 1 minute straight before hitting the fatigue wall(or however long it is depending on your gear) it also takes you an equivalent amount of time to recover from that fatigue? It would make pacing yourself on the battlefield that much more important. You could if you wanted go all out pushing the limits of your body and sprint till you couldn't sprint anymore, however you would then pay the price and have a long time to wait before you would be combat effective again. I find a hard time seeing any negatives to this concept this concept but feel free to chime in with comments/suggestions.

I don't really like the second video though in terms of showing that it is possible to shoot at max fatigue... it doesn't really show anything conclusive it just shows that if you fire enough times at a target when your scope is going crazy you will eventually hit it. He never actually tried to stop and aim at his targets so it never really addressed the problems snipers and people with DMRs have since they can't really afford to waste ammo firing an excessive amount of shots at an enemy, let alone reveal their position due to repeat firings. However since the sway is being addressed on dev branch anyways we can more or less just ignore that problem.

All in all thanks for your post though, it was the most constructive/non-flaming response I have gotten so far and I hope I answered the questions anyone else had from me. I read all the comments, but I chose to reply to the post that had the most things to address.

3 That is good, you realized what your mistake was and how to avoid it next time. That will give you the edge over less carefull players. It is the essence of Arma, understanding what you did wrong.

Your idea with increased recovery time is interesting but might lead to even more confusion than the current system.

I also believe that most of the negative feedback comes from uninformed players who didn't bother to read up on the changes. I think Dslyecxi needs to make a video about fatigue.

[-Coulum- 35]

I think Dslyecxi needs to make a video about fatigue.

Yes. And sway. But maybe they are waiting until these things are nailed down a bit more.

[bumgie 49]

Good video examples here on this thread.

I enjoy the current weaponsway and fatigue system in place in arma 3 stable and I think it does a good job reflecting the difficulty of shooting during a high tempo battle. It makes maneuvering and overwatch more important due to the fact that a simple prone drop from full run wont give you good accuracy instantly.

I also feel that this conversation would go forward a lot better if people were more clear on what they are saying. Provide clear measurements and situations instead of vague expressions.

Also I wish seperate issues like the AI balancing this fatigue/sway change clearly needs would be discussed in the Ai issues thread instead of between the lines here. It is very hard to follow otherwise.

Anyways, thats my opinion.

[Bouben 3]

I think you are the one misunderstanding here... that was my entire point, that snipers are supposed to take careful shots, whereas the video posted only proved that if you fire a ton of bullets you will eventually hit the target. You somehow are on an entirely different page here lol... Gotta love people who don't read.

No. You are perfectly able to make careful shots if you have 0% fatigue and you are in a prone or sitting position. You just have to stay static for some time before doing that. You also have to choose a right moment to fire.

---------- Post added at 10:39 ---------- Previous post was at 10:25 ----------

I also feel that this conversation would go forward a lot better if people were more clear on what they are saying. Provide clear measurements and situations instead of vague expressions.

Also I wish seperate issues like the AI balancing this fatigue/sway change clearly needs would be discussed in the Ai issues thread instead of between the lines here. It is very hard to follow otherwise.

Agreed.

[Greenfist 1863]

I'm not sure if I have already mentioned this here, but I made a little script for monitoring fatigue in the editor: http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?180350-Patch-1-24-%28Bootcamp-Update%29-Feedback&p=2732430&viewfull=1#post2732430

Very useful if you're going to talk about actual numbers.

[DancZer 65]

Billy The Kid reminds me the old fatigue system and the other the new one! :D