Fatigue Feedback (dev branch)

[vegeta897 13]

Awesome story there, Variable!

One has to wonder how opponents of this change would feel if the fatigue were like this in the game/series from the start. Would they even be playing? I have a feeling that they only dislike it because they can't do what they used to do anymore, without actually considering how it enhances the gameplay.

[Alwarren 2767]

one of its features is to try and model real-life combat --- thanks for the laugh

Get over yourself. Not everybody likes the same style of gameplay.

[St. Jimmy 272]

I wonder how people have that much problems with fatigue. I played yesterday some Domination and my fatigue didn't even get over 60% at any point. I sprinted when it was really needed, always lowered weapon, didn't crouch run unless really needed, stopped in covers for couple seconds to observe.

It only takes some seconds to recover all the fatigue if you go prone and be steady. So stop sometimes to observe your surroundings and you never notice that the fatige even exists unless you've very heavy gear. Keep your weapon down always and don't use other than jogging unless you're in trouble.

[maddogx 13]

I wonder how people have that much problems with fatigue.

Sniperwolf's response to

says it best:

I like how it looks like they're attempting to play a twitch shooter, but the game won't let them.

I think the post is missing a word though: the game won't let them anymore.

Fast paced run & gun play styles (like sprinting around and sidestrafing while trying to shoot someone COD-style, as seen in the video) are simply no longer viable since the bootcamp patch. Tough luck for the people who were used to playing like that. Weapon inertia - once it is introduced - will probably kill off this play style entirely. (Can't say I'm sad about that.)

Edited July 19, 2014 by MadDogX

[-=seany=- 5]

Sniperwolf's response to

says it best:

I think the post is missing a word though: the game won't let them anymore.

Fast paced run & gun play styles (like sprinting around and sidestrafing while trying to shoot someone COD-style, as seen in the video) are simply no longer viable since the bootcamp patch. Tough luck for the people who were used to playing like that. Weapon inertia - once it is introduced - will probably kill off this play style entirely. (Can't say I'm sad about that.)

Wow, such venom! Why do you care so much how other people have been happily playing the game for 10+ years? You remember? The game that you all used to feel so elitist about and mock COD and BF players because your game was so much more like Real life than those crappy arcade shooters?

So now this fatigue is added, everyone who liked the series the way it was up to now is thrown into the same "Arcade noob" arena as those BF Cod players? lmao

This community is something else some times. We are all fans of the same game right? We should be trying to support how each other likes to play the game, not going into rottweiler defence mode..

[maddogx 13]

Wow, such venom! Why do you care so much how other people have been happily playing the game for 10+ years? You remember? The game that you all used to feel so elitist about and mock COD and BF players because your game was so much more like Real life than those crappy arcade shooters?

So now this fatigue is added, everyone who liked the series the way it was up to now is thrown into the same "Arcade noob" arena as those BF Cod players? lmao

This community is something else some times. We are all fans of the same game right? We should be trying to support how each other likes to play the game, not going into rottweiler defence mode..

You are reading so, so much nonsense into my post that simply isn't there. Venom? Rottweiler defence mode? Please. :rolleyes:

Bottom line is, I like the fatigue changes because they suit my play style and I approve of the direction the game is apparently going. Otherwise I have no strong opinions on the subject. I really couldn't care less if certain groups preferred to play the game differently and can't anymore (hence the "tough luck" and "not sad" comments, which were not meant in a "venomous rottweiler defense" way). Your response is an excellent reminder of why I generally don't participate in these discussions, i.e. people completely over reacting and vilifying anyone who doesn't agree with them.

I hope that clarifies my stance, because I have no interest in perpetuating this argument any further.

[froggyluv 2136]

They sprinted no more than 35 meters, didn't ran to fast, already in fatigue and gasping for air .....

Can't f*ckin believe how much that looks like Arma2! Had to put full screen/max res because I thought you guys were all being fulled -even the reload :butbut:

[l337acc 15]

By the way, I'm an ex soldier, I think I know how the fatigue system should work. A lot of people without such experience really don't understand how much that extra weight slows you down. The soldiers with the heaviest loadouts should be barely combat effective, just like real life.

100% agreed. Wearing helmets, utilities, LBV, flak jacket with plates, ammo, weapon, etc. means you jog, at best, to go most places. I would hate to be one of the guys that carry the .50 cal

[-=seany=- 5]

You are reading so, so much nonsense into my post that simply isn't there. Venom? Rottweiler defence mode? Please. :rolleyes:

Bottom line is, I like the fatigue changes because they suit my play style and I approve of the direction the game is apparently going. Otherwise I have no strong opinions on the subject. I really couldn't care less if certain groups preferred to play the game differently and can't anymore (hence the "tough luck" and "not sad" comments, which were not meant in a "venomous rottweiler defense" way). Your response is an excellent reminder of why I generally don't participate in these discussions, i.e. people completely over reacting and vilifying anyone who doesn't agree with them.

I hope that clarifies my stance, because I have no interest in perpetuating this argument any further.

Well maybe you should be more aware of how your thoughts look when written down. Telling a group of players who are concerned about a major change to the game "Tough luck", and that you don't care if it spoils how a large number of them liked to play the game seems pretty aggressive. It's definitely not passive anyway.

People will "vilify" (slightly extreme) you if you make strong (potentially provocative) statements when trying to have a normal discussion about a large change to game play. It's not just you. There has been a large amount of "get used to it or F off" type attitude from some people regarding this change. It was also surprising to see a similar (Note:similar- Not the same!) tone come from a moderator. Tensions are already higher than normal around this change. So even slightly provocative post might get a reaction like mine...so don't be surprised.

I'm not really arguing with you either, you said that. In my post I said "We are all fans of the same game right? We should be trying to support how each other likes to play the game". Not exactly argument type provoking statements. Although perhaps I got a bit too wordy with the rottweiler stuff :) .

I think a little more empathy to other player's game play styles could be used around here. And if some one feels differently, then maybe it's best to keep that to themselves.

To clarify I am not against the Fatigue, I think it's kind of interesting, but I can understand and empathise with players who are being affected by the change.

Anyway, no argument from me and I accept I may have misinterpreted the aggression of your post, but not without reason.

Edited July 19, 2014 by -=seany=-

[St. Jimmy 272]

Wow, such venom! Why do you care so much how other people have been happily playing the game for 10+ years? You remember? The game that you all used to feel so elitist about and mock COD and BF players because your game was so much more like Real life than those crappy arcade shooters?

So now this fatigue is added, everyone who liked the series the way it was up to now is thrown into the same "Arcade noob" arena as those BF Cod players? lmao

This community is something else some times. We are all fans of the same game right? We should be trying to support how each other likes to play the game, not going into rottweiler defence mode..

Wow not sure if trolling hard... If not then better read what the post really said. Making a change in the game that discourages run&gun gaming doesn't mean that people who like the old style are CoD kiddies. If you like the old style, like it or not, you will have to either adapt to the fatigue or mod the game.

/Oh somehow I missed the last post. Well I still don't see anything aggressive in MadD's post. Maybe saying how things really are can be hurting to somebody.

Edited July 19, 2014 by St. Jimmy

[maddogx 13]

Well maybe you should be more aware of how your thoughts look when written down. Telling a group of players who are concerned about a major change to the game "Tough luck", and that you don't care if it spoils how a large number of them liked to play the game seems pretty aggressive. It's definitely not passive anyway.

Fair point. I was trying to make light of the subject and it came across as aggressive. I'll watch my words next time.

People will "vilify" (slightly extreme) you if you make strong (potentially provocative) statements when trying to have a normal discussion about a large change to game play. It's not just you. There has been a large amount of "get used to it or F off" type attitude from some people regarding this change. It was also surprising to see a similar (Note:similar- Not the same!) tone come from a moderator.

Moderators are allowed to express opinions too, even if they come down on one side of a polarizing issue. :)

(Although like I said, I do tend to hold back a lot more since taking on this glorious unpaid volunteer "job", because you wouldn't believe how many people think a moderator's opinion == BI's official stance.)

I think a little more empathy to other player's game play styles could be used around here. And if some one feels differently, then maybe it's best to keep that to themselves.

Well, that's where I have to disagree. Indifference is as much a valid stance as a strong opinion one way or the other. People can play the game however they want to, but I don't have to support their point of view when I think they are pushing against a beneficial game mechanic. "You can't please everyone" comes to mind.

Anyway, no argument from me and I accept I may have misinterpreted the aggression of your post, but not without reason.

Glad we cleared that up. ;)

Well I still don't see anything aggressive in MadD's post. Maybe saying how things really are can be hurting to somebody.

Age old problem of the internet: the tone of a post is open to interpretation. :)

Edited July 19, 2014 by MadDogX

[Bouben 3]

The latest stable update has caused a solid shitstorm. I have never seen so many people arguing before in this community. BIS are definitely having hard times decide how to solve this controversy.

[jandrews 116]

In reading most of everyone's posts it seems people don't mind or seem to like this change. I frankly think it stinks and playing certain game modes like King of the hill this change really makes the game play less fun. Of the 2 I'd rather have the previous. At least you could run more than 30 meters without slowing to a walk and having the gun sway so bad you cant even shoot. I have played with 3 AA rockets, tube, carryall, 4 nades, zafir and 2 belts, prior I could actually get decent distance w/out having to rest, now I cant even get to the next house w/out having to walk and be more exposed. Also, I noticed my fatigue is basically the same when I used all rockets, ditched the tube and carryall and just ran with gun/ammo. I think this needs some reconsideration, IMO this is a PC game with milsim gameplay. However this is not real life and if your going to add stuff like go-carts in a milsim game than having a fatigue system that hinders game play and turns people away its going in the wrong direction. At the end of the day, people want to have fun and play a PC game not have to worry about how their fatigue is going to hinder their fun. I don't mind the wt limits of backpacks and having to rest, hence returning to the previous fatigue. But this update IMO SUCKS!! Please change it back.

Oh I noticed a typo. It was only 2 AA not 3. my bad. Nonetheless, I didn't make the game mode, I just play it. That's King of the hill/ hostile MP. Go play it, its very fun.

Apparently I cannot voice my opinion to the majority w/out getting flamed. I presumed I would anyways, but its just words and I don't know any of you from Adam. So who cares what you think about me. If I see you in game mode hopefully I get the kill:)

That being said, Arma is the only game I play, well 98.9% of the time anyways. I'll keep this short, I am with the 100% players here to want Arma to be the best experience it can. I play with clans and players on MP. Most people IN GAME I have played with don't like this update. Thats not just me or my buddies, its everyone I have played with since the update.

Hopefully, more players that dislike this update can come here and voice their opinions and not get ripped for doing so. This is why people avoid these threads. But I could care less what some "experts" think. Go back and read my OP. I stated "I don't mind the wt limits of backpacks and having to rest, hence returning to the previous fatigue."

I didn't feel the fatigue system was all that bad or needed updating, why not reduce the % a player can carry. There are other solutions to players that stack items and carry a shit ton.

Lastly, IMO the ARMA community is really the ONLY reason this game is where it is. If it wasn't for the ARMA community I probably would have tossed this game out many many months ago. I give props to ALL the people who invest their personal time and efforts to make this game what it is.

BIS all I can say is catch up and stop riding the coat tails of your community!

[Tonci87 163]

I wish that many of the people complaining would realize that the new fatigue works for everyine on the server...

I see so many people complaining that they are at a disadvantage in PvP while they completely forget that everyone has to adapt to it.

Complainer styles so far

I can't carry half an arsenal any more.

Campers are at an advantage because I can't be bothered to go from cover to cover.

My twitch shooter style of gameplay doesn't work anymore.

All complaints essentially boil down to those three things.

To the first I say: Thank God!

The second: You will Adapt. Don't overload yourself and go from cover to cover. Avoid large open Areas. Don't attack campers from the front, find a way around them. Arma let's you do that.

The third: Actually it does. Try doing it with a SMG and light load instead of your favourite MG+ Rocket launcher combination.

Don't forget that your human oponnents have to deal with the same problems!

Be smarter than them.

[13islucky 10]

Yea, would be nice if the sway was increased some in devbranch. Maybe trying to increase the vertical sway instead of the lateral sway. Could turn out horribly, but this is devbranch, after all.

[Kerc Kasha 102]

I wish that many of the people complaining would realize that the new fatigue works for everyine on the server...

I see so many people complaining that they are at a disadvantage in PvP while they completely forget that everyone has to adapt to it.

Complainer styles so far

I can't carry half an arsenal any more.

Campers are at an advantage because I can't be bothered to go from cover to cover.

My twitch shooter style of gameplay doesn't work anymore.

All complaints essentially boil down to those three things.

To the first I say: Thank God!

The second: You will Adapt. Don't overload yourself and go from cover to cover. Avoid large open Areas. Don't attack campers from the front, find a way around them. Arma let's you do that.

The third: Actually it does. Try doing it with a SMG and light load instead of your favourite MG+ Rocket launcher combination.

Don't forget that your human oponnents have to deal with the same problems!

Be smarter than them.

Yeah the only legit complaint is linked to bad mission design. Stamina only becomes a real issue if you're A) Carrying way too much B) Walking 3 km doing nothing, in which case the mission is poorly designed.

Atleast now there's an actual reason to go 'light' instead of plate carrier + max magazines + a launcher

[blackpixxel 53]

Fatique is just the only thing. Guys, be prepared for the weapon inertia that will hit into the 3rd person PVP-scene like a massive hammer!

If weapon inertia is what I think, then you cannot compare the gunplay of Arma to a typical shooter anymore. Your weapon will drag behind your view depending on its weight.

You can already try it in Arma 2: Look through your weapon sights, hold ALT and move your mouse. You weapon will not follow your aim directly, and as far as I know depending on their weight too.

This should make the game much more slow and therefore more tactical because you have more time to think what you do. You cannot run around a corner, turn 90 degree and spray your oponent down with an MMG like the Zafir.

The only think is the AI. Will they have the same limitations too? Should not be hard to set their maximum rotation speed in relation to their weapons inertia.

Ahhh I hope the new feature will work as I expect it, because Arma really needs some more realistic features to be something else than a slimmed down version of Arma 2

[live2reap 10]

I made a forum account just to post this, and I'm sure I'll be flamed for my opinion but I am going to post anyways. So... yeah. As someone who has been playing Arma 3 since beta(As well as previous Arma's), I have to say while the fatigue system is a great concept. The general opinion of MOST people I have spoken to/played with/against believe this is the most detrimental change to game play against human players that has be released thus far.

There are several reasons for this:

1. The new fatigue system effectively neutralizes your ability to be mobile at crucial situations.

example: You are carrying a MX Rifle w/attachments, 4-5 mags, a .45 with 3 mags, 2 grenades, and a first aid kit. Relatively light on the gear side right? You are in Kavala and come across a group of 3 people, which you proceed to engage fire on. You down two of them in the initial fire fight using up 1 mag in the process and another mag and a grenade pinning the 3rd person behind cover. You throw your last grenade at the man forcing him to take cover and proceed to flank him by sprinting around the block which is the length of approximately 4 buildings and takes about 20 seconds. As you turn the corner of the last building your fatigue bar reaches the 80% mark and you can no longer run, no longer aim, and are slowed to a gasping walk and it takes you another 15 seconds to reach your destination. By the time you finally make it to the place the enemy was hiding he has realized he was being flanked and is sitting there waiting for you. I don't know about most world militaries, but I am pretty sure not being able to sprint for 20-30 seconds with relatively minimal gear is a big red flag.

2. Weapon sway making mid to long range 150m -300m shooting with low power optics and sniping 600m - 1500m with long range scopes a hopeless endeavor.

explanation: I know weapon sway should technically be a separate thread but since it is also linked to the fatigue system we can talk about it here as well. Anyone who has held a rifle before knows that it is impossible to hold it completely still. That being said anyone who has ever held a rifle should know that the level of weapon sway weapons have with NO FATIGUE is 100% unrealistic, and the amount of weapon sway you have when moderately fatigued is excessive at best. Go right now pick an MK18 with an SOS or equivalent scope, and lay down with no fatigue. Look at a building 500m away and watch as the weapon sway on your rifle moves the center dot on your scope clear from one side of the building to the other without even touching it. 500m is NOT a long distance. A person should be able to look at a target 500m away and have relatively little trouble keeping them in the center of their scope. Lets not even mention the fact that holding your breath no longer works anymore.

3. Penalties for carrying heavy gear encourage more people to over use tanks and aircraft in matches, and makes infantry easier targets due to slower all around movement speeds and lack of movement in general.

explanation: Since the update we have been seeing a surge of people in games of King of the Hill and other PvP modes flooding the maps with vehicles because less and less infantry players are carrying Anti-Tank and Anti-Air launchers because of the huge penalties to fatigue. While nobody likes a walking Anti-Armor guy carrying around like 4 rockets in his backpack regular players with 1-2 rockets are essential to balanced game play and preventing games from becoming a cluster@#$! of armor and aircraft. However nobody wants to take on those roles when they can't participate in regular combat because of their weight. I'm not talking about guys with like 3-4 rockets, a lmg with several belts of ammo tons of grenades and a satchel charge either(they should be penalized for taking a loadout like that. I am talking normal loadouts with a launcher with 1-2 rockets and relatively light gear such as a carbine or SMG and they still cannot participate in regular combat due to weight.

Now don't get me wrong I LIKE the idea behind these new changes to fatigue(sway not so much because it was realistic the way it was before). However I think the degree to which they have been adjusted is EXCESSIVE and unrealistic at best. Should you be out of breath and ready to pass out after sprinting 100m with a 100lbs of gear? Yeah, sure. The way things currently are however you get that tired wearing 25-30lbs of gear, and that is just pathetic. If they tweak the system properly I think it can be a great improvement to game play, but the way it is right now it is nothing but a detriment. On a side note, while I understand the comments that are saying to adapt because everyone has to deal with it, and rest assured most of us already have. However that does not take away from the fact that at this point the excessiveness of the changes are UNREALISTIC. Realism being the #1 thing we should be striving for right? So if this system is here to stay and we are supposed to make do with it shouldn't we at least push to have it toned down to realistic levels?

[Tonci87 163]

1 Why were you sprinting around the block? You could have walked through a house next to you....

Ultimately now you will have to see stamina as a ressource, just like IRL. Can I make it around the block in time? Is it worth it? Should I drop my backpack before I do it?

2 I won't' comment on weapon sway since it is really a seperate issue and has already been changed on Devbranch.

3 By your description dedicated AT soldiers (wich btw can hide really well from vehicels) should have a blast. I see nothing wrong with that. You have to decide if you want to be a fast moving infantry man or a somewhat slower but more powerfull AT. No more be all you want at the same time.

[blackpixxel 53]

To your first point, live2reap:

The fatique system worked as expected. You got punished for run and gun. Just look what real soldiers are doing in urban terrain. Do they run just across the distance of four buildings? No, you are in a group and go from cover to cover, always securing the area. You would not run directly into the known enemy position, everywhere else could be another enemy and shooting you from the side or back.

[live2reap 10]

1 Why were you sprinting around the block? You could have walked through a house next to you....

Ultimately now you will have to see stamina as a ressource, just like IRL. Can I make it around the block in time? Is it worth it? Should I drop my backpack before I do it?

2 I won't' comment on weapon sway since it is really a seperate issue and has already been changed on Devbranch.

3 By your description dedicated AT soldiers (wich btw can hide really well from vehicels) should have a blast. I see nothing wrong with that. You have to decide if you want to be a fast moving infantry man or a somewhat slower but more powerfull AT. No more be all you want at the same time.

1. Generally speaking flanking is more effective when you aren't seen doing so. There was an open area between me and the other guy so just moving through the building next to me would have accomplished nothing. It's not like I went far out of my way or anything. I chose the shortest route to my destination that would also keep me from being seen as well... that however is irrelevant considering the total distance I sprinted was only about a 60-70m half circle

2. Fair Enough`

3.Have you tried moving with AT since the update? even with the most minimalist loadouts you still get exhausted extremely fast, and you can't really be a dedicated AT Soldier in modes like King of the Hill where your teams base is 3-4km from the AO and you have no means of resupplying once you leave the base. So the very few people people who do chose to use AT weapons have to either use their rockets immediately on the first thing they see(potentially wasting them on low priority targets) or sit around waiting for something big to come up and not be able to participate in combat with the group because they have to stop to catch their breath every 30 seconds and their aim from exhaustion is totally destroyed.

Not being able to be all purpose walking tank anymore is great, however hardly being able to participate in combat due to the system kinda sucks.

[-Coulum- 35]

To your first point, live2reap:

The fatique system worked as expected. You got punished for run and gun. Just look what real soldiers are doing in urban terrain. Do they run just across the distance of four buildings? No, you are in a group and go from cover to cover, always securing the area. You would not run directly into the known enemy position, everywhere else could be another enemy and shooting you from the side or back.

Yes. not only does it encourage patience/caution but also teamwork. If you have to take your time to flank that guy, then you best have a teamate keeping hime pinned down while you move. The flanking run you describe, lve2reap, is that of run and gun games that don't put much focus on teamwork - don't get me wrong, they can be fun still, but thats not the type of gameplay that I play arma for.

The fatigue system strikes quite a good balance between realism and options - you aren't actually forced to play a certain way. You do always have the option to drop that plate carrier and make that run around. But there will be consequences in other ways (you will die real fast without a plate carrier.)

[SOF.unit.arma3 10]

In little words I think You guys need to get some real vets on your dev teams and start bringing the game back to realism ... Im Not saying take it out Im saying make it a lil bit more real like 5 mins of full pace then slow down but so far its only about 2 mins of full run and I have no idea what military yall pulled that out of but in Real Life you can trek at least 15 mins with a full pack up to 120 pounds at an even pace for about 15- 20 mins not 2 mins of in game running

the weapon sway is unrealistic the ai apparently they are all super snipers and this game started of straight and perfect right up until the bootcamp update which has broken 90% percent of user made content which in my mind is the only thing keeping your game a float this is not a rage this is a simple statement .. STOP trying to fix stuff that does not need to be fixed leave it alone fix things that are unrealistic like the Ai the super aim the unrealistic weapon sway and perhaps the fact that since day one holding your breath has done little or nothing to stop weapon sway like for real any of you ever fire a weapon lol

Thats all I have to say I have very High hopes for Arma 3 but Ive been around since OFP and im actually loosing those hopes fast and almost going back to Arma 2

Sincerly Yours LtCol.McDonald.A (Mac)

SOFRealism.com

Edited July 20, 2014 by SOF.unit.arma3

[Bouben 3]

To your first point, live2reap:

The fatique system worked as expected. You got punished for run and gun. Just look what real soldiers are doing in urban terrain. Do they run just across the distance of four buildings? No, you are in a group and go from cover to cover, always securing the area. You would not run directly into the known enemy position, everywhere else could be another enemy and shooting you from the side or back.

Exactly. The real life combat is incredibly slow compared to Arma gameplay. Those who are complaining should take a look at some real urban combat footages and you will see how slowly the soldiers cross the streets etc.

[Sterlingarcherz101 15]

I want more elements of realism. But I want elements that enhance the game and Its "fun" "immersion".

I play with a lot of arma vets. And so far in playing with the new update. Now the game revolving too much around the fatigue. Which is not a good thing.

"added fatigue is top priority for fun and immersion"said nobody ever. A toned down version of the system maybe.

You can no longer kneel and get a shot off so you need to be prone or sitting bit because of the grass you can't see anything. the ai on the other hand is business as usual. able to take your head off while they are kneeling from 400m out.

Playing the game and all that you hear is players out of breath. It is too much. Getting out of a heli and running 60 meters then being confined to walking is just ridiculous in a map the size of altis. Soldiers hike everyday and in the heat of battle a guy is gonna pull that extra 60% out of his ass.if it means the difference between living and dying.

It needs to be toned down. Real life soldiers are saying to you it is ridiculous.

So overall it is a nice idea. But don't make it such a big deal. As others noted, way more important things to get fun realism in the game.