Fatigue Feedback (dev branch)

[krazikilla 5]

This new fatigue and weapon sway update is gamebreaking without anything to counter it.

We need weaponrest -now, or roll back the latest update.

[blackpixxel 53]

At least the basic sway when you are completely full of stamina is way to much. It is much more exaggerated than in the last version, but it should be the same while only the sway after running/getting shot should become increased!

[Greenfist 1863]

Earlier in this thread I made a small study on fatigue but it's a bit buried now. So I thought it might be interesting to revisit it after the bootcamp update.

This isn't really feedback like the topic title suggests, hence the spoiler tags. For educational purposes only.

Rate of exhaustion in different movement modes:

The most typical mode, running with raised gun, will be the base line and given the multiplier of 1.0 and other modes are compared to it.

%/s is the fatigue percent increase per second.

This was tested with the default BLUFOR rifleman on level ground.

Gear weight affects the gain roughly linearly; double the weight, run half as much. AT missile specialist, for example, has twice as much gear as the rifleman.

[table=width: 400, class: grid]

[tr]

[td]Movement[/td]

[td]Multiplier[/td]

[td]%/s[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Running, gun lowered [/td]

[td]0.7[/td]

[td]0.4[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Running, gun raised [/td]

[td]1.0[/td]

[td]0.5[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Crouched running, gun lowered [/td]

[td]1.0[/td]

[td]0.5[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Crouched running, gun raised [/td]

[td]1.3[/td]

[td]0.7[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Upright combat pace [/td]

[td]1.7[/td]

[td]0.9[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Crouched combat pace [/td]

[td]2.0[/td]

[td]1.1[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Upright sprint [/td]

[td]3.4[/td]

[td]1.8[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Normal crawling [/td]

[td]3.4[/td]

[td]1.8[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Crouched sprint [/td]

[td]4.0[/td]

[td]2.1[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Fast crawling [/td]

[td]4.7[/td]

[td]2.5[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Crouched walk (weapon up/down) [/td]

[td]0.7[/td]

[td]0.4[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]walking upright [/td]

[td]-1.8[/td]

[td]-0.9[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]Rolling[/td]

[td]9.6[/td]

[td]5.0[/td]

[/tr]

[/table]

If you're unfamiliar with the fatigue percentages, here's the approximate effects in different levels:

10-20% First visual increase in gun sway.

Still normal speeds: Sprint 18km/h, Run 14 km/h

20-40% Clearly visible, moderate sway. First audible breathing.

Sprint 18, Run 13

40-50% Moderate and constant breathing. Quite fast sway (below 2 vibrations a second) when standing up. Able to hit a man 100m away when crouched and holding breath. Very easy to shoot from prone.

Sprint 16, Run 12

50-60% Breathing intensifies and becomes panting. Faster sway; over 3 revolutions a second.

Sprint 15, Run 11

60-70% Constant heavy breathing. Vignette effect appears.

Sprint: you can't, Run 10

70-80% Badly out of breath.

Sprint: no, run 9

over 90%

Can't run. Walk 7 km/h. (9km/h when gun lowered)

(The notions about combat capability may be subjective.)

Other observations:

Slopes have a huge effect on fatigue. On a steep uphill, the fatigue rate can be about 5 times higher.

On the other hand, even if you have extremely heavy gear, you can recover really fast when sprinting downhill; lie down and you recover 0.4%/second, sprint down and it's 3%.

In prone you recover 2.5 times faster than standing up. Crouch is in between.

The gear weight affects recovery speed. Double the load and the recovery time triples. Rifleman recovers from total exhaustion in 22 seconds, missile specialist in 76 seconds. (lying down)

On level terrain, a rifleman can run for 90 seconds (330m) before reaching 45% fatigue level, which I think is the point where you can't fight efficiently. A missile specialist; 45s & 170m.

Conlusion:

Watch your loadout weight.

Be wary of hills.

Don't sprint unnecessarily.

Travel with your weapon lowered or by car.

"Fatigue; it can - and it will - be your worst nightmare in the field, should you fail to regulate it effectively." - Adams

Edited July 15, 2014 by Greenfist
typsos

[Tzukasa 10]

Fatigue part is perfect now, much better than before. But the weapon sway part just isn't right. It's too exaggerated and isn't "a more predictable - and thus manageable" or "more meaningful weapon handling" as it was ment to be. It needs to be dialed back some. Also the side to side sway from an arm hit is, I'm sorry, absurd. It's just way way too much now. It's suppose to give a Penalty and make it Harder to aim, not be absolutely impossible to land a shot no matter what... If I get hit with an arm shot now I often just commit suicide in frustration or reload the save in sp, which gives you an idea how bad it is... It's bad..

Please dial back the overall weapon sway & the arm hit sway abit, leave the fatigue overall with the new system cause that's much better now, with crouch running not being the end all, and fatigue slowing your movement overtime. I sware it seems now when fully rested, I move faster than I use to move when fully rested (maybe just imagining that though). Either way fatigue system + , sway system -- , needs work ASAP

Edited July 15, 2014 by Tzukasa

[-Coulum- 35]

IMO sway and fatigue are well synced. When you are not tired it is not difficult to shoot really. With high magnification I can engage units 500 metres out with ease while crouching. Prone its even easier. Sway does make the process slower, but you can still engage accurately if you take the time to do it. But then this all changes in the middle of a firefight. Partially because of fatigue. Now if your blood is pumping from just running to cover you can no longer make that 500 metre shot from crouch. And in addition if those ai are shooting at you, you aren't likely to have a s much patience. This all results in much more difficult firefights where you really have to maneuvre and crack your enemy open, rather than just plink away at them from far away. This is how it should be. Its actually more like a firefight rather than a chicken shoot.

I do admit however that AI need to "catch up" to these recent change though.

I do want weapon resting and bipods, but I think people also overestimate just how useful they will be. If you sprint 50 metres and rest your weapon on a low ledge you still aren't going to be shooting accurately. Your legs are going to be burning and your whole body is going to be unsteady. If you get attacked in the middle of the country side with nothing but bushes around you (which is what happens in most cases for me), weapon resting isn't going to help you. If anything weapon resting is just going to further increase the advantage slow methodical players get. Now the guy who is well rested on elevated ground not only has the option to engage from prone but also from behind cover. Meanwhile the grunt trying to assault him is left with bushes to hide behind at best while he is rapidly getting tired trying to assault up the hill.

I am happy with what you have done BI. Maybe a bit of more work to make the steady aim key have more use. Right now while prone it doesn't really do much.

[blackpixxel 53]

Everything is fine, exept the default weapon sway when you didn't do anything. It should be comparable to Arma 2, which was realistic. But it is so much larger that it is really anoying.

[katipo66 94]

It would be nice to get a labored movement animation along side the fatigue value so that it doesn't just look like the speed has been slowed, thats how it looks to me now, but then i shouldnt be looking in 3rd person right lol.. everything else is fine and makes sense, agree that it would be great if this could also effect AI.

[Alwarren 2767]

Everything is fine, exept the default weapon sway when you didn't do anything. It should be comparable to Arma 2, which was realistic. But it is so much larger that it is really anoying.

I'd say make a ticket and argue your case. This is a new feature and will likely go through a few feedback-driven corrections over time.

[-Coulum- 35]

Everything is fine, exept the default weapon sway when you didn't do anything. It should be comparable to Arma 2, which was realistic. But it is so much larger that it is really anoying.

No not arma 2! in arma 2 when you were rested you could shoot the ear off a soldier at 500 metres while standing. Not that a skilled shooter couldn't do that reality,but it would take some time and concentration. In arma 2 any body could do it. Point click done. Features like sway make it so that you have to concentrate and take time if you want to make shot like that. There is a actually a bit of skill to it.

I could live with pre 1.24 sway when unfatigued but would hate to see arma 2 standards back again. And I think the devs agree. I feel that their goal is to make firefights longer and more intense, not sniper wars.

[Kerc Kasha 102]

Everything is fine, exept the default weapon sway when you didn't do anything. It should be comparable to Arma 2, which was realistic. But it is so much larger that it is really anoying.

Arma 2's sway wasn't realistic there was barely any sway at all.

This is the same BS that people were saying in Alpha about Arma 3's recoil. BIs finally actually add some fucking recoil to guns and everyone loses their minds screaming bloody murder about actually having to compensate.

[Bouben 3]

If anything weapon resting is just going to further increase the advantage slow methodical players get. Now the guy who is well rested on elevated ground not only has the option to engage from prone but also from behind cover. Meanwhile the grunt trying to assault him is left with bushes to hide behind at best while he is rapidly getting tired trying to assault up the hill.

Excellent point.

I really enjoy the new system because I am a slow, methodical player who does not like rushing.

[Variable 322]

IMO sway and fatigue are well synced. When you are not tired it is not difficult to shoot really. With high magnification I can engage units 500 metres out with ease while crouching. Prone its even easier. Sway does make the process slower, but you can still engage accurately if you take the time to do it. But then this all changes in the middle of a firefight. Partially because of fatigue. Now if your blood is pumping from just running to cover you can no longer make that 500 metre shot from crouch. And in addition if those ai are shooting at you, you aren't likely to have a s much patience. This all results in much more difficult firefights where you really have to maneuvre and crack your enemy open, rather than just plink away at them from far away. This is how it should be. Its actually more like a firefight rather than a chicken shoot.

I do admit however that AI need to "catch up" to these recent change though.

I do want weapon resting and bipods, but I think people also overestimate just how useful they will be. If you sprint 50 metres and rest your weapon on a low ledge you still aren't going to be shooting accurately. Your legs are going to be burning and your whole body is going to be unsteady. If you get attacked in the middle of the country side with nothing but bushes around you (which is what happens in most cases for me), weapon resting isn't going to help you. If anything weapon resting is just going to further increase the advantage slow methodical players get. Now the guy who is well rested on elevated ground not only has the option to engage from prone but also from behind cover. Meanwhile the grunt trying to assault him is left with bushes to hide behind at best while he is rapidly getting tired trying to assault up the hill.

I am happy with what you have done BI. Maybe a bit of more work to make the steady aim key have more use. Right now while prone it doesn't really do much.

Exactly that. Great job on the new fatigue and weapon sway BIS!

[byku 13]

....

Totally agree! Great post and great job BIS :).

[blackpixxel 53]

Arma 2's sway wasn't realistic there was barely any sway at all.

Maybe not realistic, but it felt more authentic than this huge weapon sway.

But okay: what about holding breath?

While it is not really holding breath (I read that it makes not much difference if you are holding breath or not at shooting, not as much as in A3) it should be some kind of 'concentration mode' where you concentrate on your aim. Maybe BIS could increase this time a bit

Dont get me wrong - I dont want this game to be easier. But when I see that AI gives me headshots at a variety of ranges where I can only make one shot from time to time because I have to fight against the weapon sway that the AI does not really care about, then the game feels wrong.

[-Coulum- 35]

While it is not really holding breath (I read that it makes not much difference if you are holding breath or not at shooting, not as much as in A3) it should be some kind of 'concentration mode' where you concentrate on your aim. Maybe BIS could increase this time a bit

I would say the time is fine, but the effectiveness is lacking right now. It barely does anything if you are not standing up.

Dont get me wrong - I dont want this game to be easier. But when I see that AI gives me headshots at a variety of ranges where I can only make one shot from time to time because I have to fight against the weapon sway that the AI does not really care about, then the game feels wrong.

That definitely isn't unreasonable. Take it to the ai configuration thread. Hopefully BI gets on balancing the ai with these recent changes quickly.

[twisted 128]

Arma 2's sway wasn't realistic there was barely any sway at all.

This is the same BS that people were saying in Alpha about Arma 3's recoil. BIs finally actually add some fucking recoil to guns and everyone loses their minds screaming bloody murder about actually having to compensate.

+1000.

[seba1976 98]

Take it to the ai configuration thread. Hopefully BI gets on balancing the ai with these recent changes quickly.

OK, what would it takes for you to understand that BI can't change the AI to take fatigue into account?

[Bouben 3]

Interesting points about holding breath because when I tried to steady my aim in real life by actually holding breath it hardly had any effect on it. The hands were still shaking. Only my chest was static. I suppose I did something wrong...

[katipo66 94]

Controlled breathing for everything, through the nose out the mouth.

[neodammerung 8]

I suppose I did something wrong...

Yes you did, holding breath is a whole, not just stopping breathing but it's hard to do it right without any proper training.

[Bouben 3]

Yes you did, holding breath is a whole, not just stopping breathing but it's hard to do it right without any proper training.

Yes, I literally did hold my breath but it still did not prevent my hands from shaking, you see?

[Variable 322]

I can only tell that in RL training I was taught to shoot while exhaled. I was never told to hold my breath.

[instagoat 133]

You shoot during respiratory pause at the very bottom of your breathing cycle.

[Wiki 1558]

Yes but you will indeed never be told to hold breath IRL :)

[-Coulum- 35]

I wish they would call "hold breath key" the steady aim key" instead. Because it is correct that holding breath doesn't necessarily make your aim better. Hold breath key to me represents controlling your breathing, making sure to align the sights properly, concentrating, steadying you hands to the best of your ability etc.

In real life I try to shoot after exhaling. I don't hold breath.